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A little MG update? (my suggestion)

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Extension7

Extension7

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Jun 22, 2010
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#1
So ok, obviously the MG has changed dramatically from the terror it was in ROOST. I would never dare to pop my head out with an Machinegun firing in burst everywhere, it was a huge terror that slowed an attacking team down 10-fold. And it seemed to never stop with the constant riflemen and troops supporting it, giving it ammo, and cover.

I think the main reason people were so attracted to it in ROOST is because the silly people who pop out while the MG is firing, is heavily suppressed, increasing sway and reducing their chance of actually hitting something. Therefore, it is only instinct to cover the player who is helping you by reducing your opponent's accuracy, and slowing a strong push towards an objective down.

So my proposal? You know the whole suppression system? Yeah, that thing that makes your screen go back in time before color screens were produced? And slightly increases your sway and blurs your screen just by a milligram?

Yeah, increase the suppression effect produced by Machineguns dramatically. AND JUST THE MACHINE GUNS. This (at least in my mind) will make the class a bit more of a terror on the battlefield, as it should be. The smart, team player will now cover this frightening machine, and give it ammo, helping both players out by giving you team points, and the gunner more ammunition to scare the enemy!

It's like being the bully at school, he is nothing without his little followers who help him just so they won't get hurt themselves, or a Clown fish and a anemone, working together to stay alive. The machine gun lays down fire, helping the riflemen stay alive longer while the rifles help him stay refueled and alive himself.

Also I think if you added suppression points (when you completely suppress a troop you get like +2 teampoints or something) this will make the MG much more favorable a class like it was in ROOST.

Then again, I'm not always right. Do you all agree? :)
 
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#3
sh1f said:
Um... there's a very active thread three posts down about this. :p

http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=66065
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Yes there have been many active debates about the MG being useless, yet I feel the need to make my own thread to explain a bit more in detail [and mess with the devs ;)]

But mostly what I skim through is how people adapted to the MG in RO2, and tips and tricks to using it. I feel no need to do certain things to make me stay alive longer as an MG, I should automatically be a huge target and threat on the battlefield from my first bullet, and my team should know that too.

Sorry if my thread has disturbed the natural order guys, it's not like there hasn't been billions of repeated threads on here anyways ;D
 
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#6
I disagree. I think a fix that's more in line with RO2 would be slight recoil reduction for longer and more accurate burst, and faster & smoother bipads deployment. If you are setup and know where enemies are going to come from, you can already out shoot just about anything. No need to give buffs to players who misses their targets with their MGs.

The recoil part is pretty much self explanatory. The bipads deployment part is something different.

Right now I think it's bit silly that deploying your bipad essentially locks your character into a position like using a cover. Just like the cover mechanics this can get you killed, the exception being that MGs have to rely on this mechanic to accurately fire their weapon. My suggestion is that pretty much let MGers slide in and out of using bipads without resorting to this clunky mechanics.

First, give MGs ability to use ironsight from standing and crouching (high recoil should prevent people from using it like a fully auto rifle at long range, as seen with the Soviet assault class locked weapon). Then let MGs deploy bipads simply by walking up to objects while in ironsight that let you setup the bipads. Instead of pressing the use key to go through that clunky animation, this will basically allow MGers to deploy bipads on the fly by snapping into deployment position with simple movement, then just slid out without being stuck out in the open.

Ironically the best example of such mechanic that I can think of is in Crysis 2 (super arcade game lol) singleplayer, where when you use ironsight behind an object that's taller than your crouched character, your character automatically adjust the view height just to get the gun over the object and hence using the object as a cover in one fluid motion. No extra buttons required.

This isn't too far fetched either since your character never folds up the bipads currently anyway, not to mention that MGs aren't some 50lbs super cannons. They are about 20 ~ 28lbs guns; not light, but certainly not something so heavy that you need to go through some special animation to rest it on the window.

This would be much more realistic fix than the magical suppression effect that turns your enemies into drunken lots.
 
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#7
The MG's suppression really needs to project in a cone, persist a short time after it stops firing, and not drastically effect team mates. As it is now I can have an MG firing at one window on apartments, and will be barely effected by it while standing in the next window a few feet away. This means I have a nice clear shot at the big bright flash across the way.

If there is going to be a suppression mechanic, then have it actually work, or get rid of it and drop the muzzle kick for the first round of the machine gun and let us try to hide from it out of pure fear for our character's life that round.
 
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#8
Gaizokubanou said:
A good counter suggestion
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A recoil reduction would just make it no less from a MKB42 or MP40 but packs more of a punch and is heavier.

The machinegunner can still choose to do that silly semi-auto bullcrap, which ruins the whole point of your 75 round mag and overheating effects...

I do think the machinegunner needs SOME suppression buff and something to make others instinctivly help it out. If you just reduce recoil and allow ironsights while crouch, I think it'll just be a slow assault troop, that slugs around some large magazine gun, that is no less than a PPSH with a drum mag.

Machineguns are supposed to be support roles, and you can't give support without teammates giving support back.
 
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#9
Yeah the better thing is probably to drop that kick at start up. Right now its an immobile an bright firing weapon that makes you an easy target. But if the setup recoil was less then it would at least be deadly as hell. Right now I don't find any more deadly than camping with an SMG on close quarters maps. And on long range maps you might get one guy but then every Rifleman on the map saw you an is firing in your direction.
 
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#10
Extremity said:
A recoil reduction would just make it no less from a MKB42 or MP40 but packs more of a punch and is heavier.

The machinegunner can still choose to do that silly semi-auto bullcrap, which ruins the whole point of your 75 round mag and overheating effects...

I do think the machinegunner needs SOME suppression buff and something to make others instinctivly help it out. If you just reduce recoil and allow ironsights while crouch, I think it'll just be a slow assault troop, that slugs around some large magazine gun, that is no less than a PPSH with a drum mag.

Machineguns are supposed to be support roles, and you can't give support without teammates giving support back.
Click to expand...

That's true about it becoming fully automatic weapon with high punch and more weight... because that's what MGs were.

Remember, MGs are the weapons that infantry could carry that yielded most casualties in the war. If you don't like the realism then that's cool too, nothing wrong with that. But just keep in mind that real life suppression came from the high probability of killing targets that dare to take a look at you. People didn't get drunk with fear. If they knew they could take out the machine gunner because MGer was just missing a whole lot, nobody would really fear it.

Not saying that people playing this game will fear anything in this game, but just pointing out what actual suppression is about.

I just don't see the need to artificially gimp the MG (no ironsight in standing/crouch and slow bipads deployment) only to artificially buff it in another area (make the enemies drunk when your bullets fly near by) to force MGers to play in certain way. Let the game be more sim-ish, give realistic mechanics and let us players have freedom messing around with it :D

Edit: Ok here is a great example of the fluid cover/bipads deployment that I was talking about. Crysis 2 - Cover system - YouTube
 
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#11
The only thing that needs to get fixed about the LMG is:

CANNOT DEPLOY HERE
CANNOT DEPLOY HERE
CANNOT DEPLOY HERE
CANNOT DEPLOY HERE
CANNOT DEPLOY HERE

That's gotten me killed far more than any eagle-eyed marksman.

I'd also like the ability to ironsights and brace on cover without deploying (which does nothing but frame me in a window) for a short burst, but I can do without.

Long story short, you used machine guns wrong in ROOST. You should never fire any man-portable weapon without the intention of hitting your target. Bouncing bullets off their cover is useless, and only serves to further give your position away so they can take you out. We don't need any suppression points. The suppression comes from me killing them if they're dumb enough to try and cross my lane of fire. If they organize long enough to spot me, I don't sit there and get into a gun fight with four dudes, I make like a banana and split. Live to fight another day and all that.
 
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#12
Gaizokubanou said:
That's true about it becoming fully automatic weapon with high punch and more weight... because that's what MGs were.

Remember, MGs are the weapons that infantry could carry that yielded most casualties in the war. If you don't like the realism then that's cool too, nothing wrong with that. But just keep in mind that real life suppression came from the high probability of killing targets that dare to take a look at you. People didn't get drunk with fear. If they knew they could take out the machine gunner because MGer was just missing a whole lot, nobody would really fear it.

Not saying that people playing this game will fear anything in this game, but just pointing out what actual suppression is about.

I just don't see the need to artificially gimp the MG only to artificially buff it in another area to force MGers to play in certain way. Let the game be more sim-ish, give realistic mechanics and let us players have freedom messing around with it :D
Click to expand...

Yeah in real life your eyes don't go black and white, but you do duck for dear life, start praying, and think. The way you want MGs to be is probably realistic in terms of actual reality, it had no special ammo, or anything, it just had a larger magazine, heavier, and a faster RoF.

But in games it's die respawn repeat, a lot of people would take the (excuse my language) bullsheet chance of getting lucky and scoring the kill, for his own amusement.

That's why TWI introduced suppression in RO1, and that's why it's still in RO2, it's a decent way to make you scared of getting it. In real life, you only have one life, you have more feelings, emotions, family, friends, morales, beliefs, religion, etc. You can lose ALL of that by being stupid, and not realizing the actuality and brutality of getting shot.

The system is a simple way to sorta make you feel in danger. And machineguns should definetely make you feel in danger.

I don't know what else to say haha, but yeah, machine guns are far more dangerous and range/penetration capable than bolts and SMGs, making it the big buff, the gargantua, the demon, the romero, and the cyberdemon, of the battlefield.
 
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#13
Josef Nader said:
Long story short, you used machine guns wrong in ROOST. You should never fire any man-portable weapon without the intention of hitting your target. Bouncing bullets off their cover is useless, and only serves to further give your position away so they can take you out. We don't need any suppression points. The suppression comes from me killing them if they're dumb enough to try and cross my lane of fire. If they organize long enough to spot me, I don't sit there and get into a gun fight with four dudes, I make like a banana and split. Live to fight another day and all that.
Click to expand...

I assumed you played ROOST, from my 2 years of playing it, a lot of people stuck with the MG, he wasn't a loner, he had an entire army behind him, helping him out. Also, read my previous post ^_^
 
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#14
Yeah I understand your point of view of wanting somewhat more realistic outcome through unrealistic changes in the process. I'm just more of an old school simulation mentality person where realism I prefer is in the small mechanics, but hey nothing wrong with different views on this subject since it's amoral stuff.

It's just that I love sims for that specific reason, the ability to try something reckless in a pretty realistic environment.

But yeah the respawn deal is a pretty huge wrench in the realism department :D
 
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#15
Gaizokubanou said:
Yeah I understand your point of view of wanting somewhat more realistic outcome through unrealistic changes in the process. I'm just more of an old school simulation mentality person where realism I prefer is in the small mechanics, but hey nothing wrong with different views on this subject since it's amoral stuff.

It's just that I love sims for that specific reason, the ability to try something reckless in a pretty realistic environment.

But yeah the respawn deal is a pretty huge wrench in the realism department :D
Click to expand...

Too bad CD doesn't get played much, MGs can do great there.

I guess it's skill that makes a MG player useful in RO2...

I'm just so used to how well it worked in RO1. D:
 
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#16
Extremity said:
I assumed you played ROOST, from my 2 years of playing it, a lot of people stuck with the MG, he wasn't a loner, he had an entire army behind him, helping him out. Also, read my previous post ^_^
Click to expand...

I understand what you're saying, but any soldier expending rounds without the intention of hitting their target is wrong. The LMG is basically just a big, automatic rifle. It fires a cut down rifle bullet at a very high rate of fire. It is a force multiplier, designed to give one man the firepower of an entire squad. It should be used like a rifle in many respects. The most effective MGers I've talked to here on the forums (myself included) play the class very similarly to sniper. Haunt around low areas in prone, ambush enemies when they least expect it, and support your squad's flanks.

If my squad is on the objective, I'll move off the objective, get around to the side, and fire on the Germans as they try to get to my mates. I'm suppressing them by killing them if they dare to expose themselves. It makes whatever lane of fire I've closed down very undesirable, and my mates are free to pick them off as they sit around trying to figure out how to cross the street without me killing their entire unit.

This is what I mean by force multiplier. As a single man, I'm capable of locking down a lane of fire with the same effectiveness (if not more, considering I'm a lower profile, harder to spot, and harder to hit) as a squad of 4-5 riflemen. This way, we can have more bodies defending the cap, and achieve the same goal.

In an unrelated note, I do quite enjoy discussing something with someone who is actually being respectful. Don't ever change that. ;)
 
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#17
Josef Nader said:
If my squad is on the objective, I'll move off the objective, get around to the side, and fire on the Germans as they try to get to my mates. I'm suppressing them by killing them if they dare to expose themselves. It makes whatever lane of fire I've closed down very undesirable, and my mates are free to pick them off as they sit around trying to figure out how to cross the street without me killing their entire unit.


In an unrelated note, I do quite enjoy discussing something with someone who is actually being respectful. Don't ever change that. ;)
Click to expand...

I guess with the more fast paced gameplay the class has to adapt.

The way I see the machinegun is as a roadblock, an annoyance, it sucks to get caught by one, it's like stepping in a pile of poo, it's unexpected and now your riddled with ****, or bullets in this case.

In most games (whether they be arcadey or not) the stronger, larger enemies always had larger, supierior guns. For example, Dead Island (since I've recently played it with a friend) when you see 4 regulars, you and your friends aren't very impressed, you run in, and beat the load out of them, but then, we went down another street, saw a mixed variety of regulars, with some runners, and this guy:

Dead-Island-Screenshots-Reveal-Zombie-Secrets.jpg


We went TF2 engineer "NOPE" and ran the hell away.

If you see a couple smg guys in the distance, ain't so much of a threat to you and your comrades, but if you see SMG's, and rifles being supported by a machine gun, you do the same exact thing (except you die most of the time in RO2 ^_^)

See how I compared those two there? Yeah, I'm cool =3

Also, thank you for saying what you said, I really like debating with others :D
 
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#18
Again, I do see what you're saying. A well-defended building is intimidating. Here's the problem though...

Without spreading your line of defense around, what's to stop them from getting around behind you, cutting you off, and overwhelming you?

You want your little group spread out. It protects you from grenades, assault troopers who slip past your defenses, and other such room-clearing shenanigans.

Think about it this way. What's harder to clear out, one building full of 10 dudes, or an entire area where 10 dudes are hiding and ambushing your guys?
 
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#19
Why not just add in aim jerking on an increased matter. If a bullet whizzes by your head by mere inches, then I don't care who you are, your body is going to jerk a tiny bit, making your aim impractical. I've been in firefight situations where bullets are just hitting the guy in the shoulder and everywhere around him from 70~ meters, and he just calmly takes his aim and kills me without moving an inch.
 
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#20
wait MG in RO1 was something to worry about? LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL


yeah sure until a half decent jack in the box pop up rifleman spends .001 of a second exposed and puts a bullet square in the MG'ers face. I always considered rifelmen more of a threat in RO when compared to MG's. Juxtapose that with RO2 where I was able to set up the MG ( either team ) and easily rake in 20 kills in a life while simultaneously cutting the enemy off from using a route into the objective ...
 
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