Squad Leader spawn discussion

[Arete]

Some of the squad respawn system was discussed in GD in this thread:
http://forums.tripwireinteractive.co...ad.php?t=54974

What was confirmed was:
-Squads are added dynamically, containing multiple teams (fire team, MG team, maybe sniper team, and so forth)
-When respawning, you have the choice of respawning either at a cap point or at your squad leader (it he has a secure zone to spawn at)

What I got a little worried about when seeing this is for "ninja" tactics where a single squad leader (SL for short) could sneak past the defenses and spawn his full squad behind the lines.

I'm quite confident that TWI can do a wonderful system on their own, but I'm just throwing in some ideas on this that they can ponder on :-)

--------------------

So I sketched up a few suggestions.

1. Basic system. Every squad leader gets a "zone" in which his squad can respawn. If an enemy enters this zone, or an enemy bullet penetrates it (bullet penetration zone might be better to have a smaller zone maybe) the zone gets cancelled (with a cooldown on bullets maybe). What I'd like to see here is a growing "zone", that means the area that needs to be clear of enemies gets bigger as the SL gets further from the cap zone.



2. If possible, it would also be nice to have a "resupply corridor" between your cap zones and the SL. This would mean respawning at the SL will only be available if there's a clear path between the SL and a cap point. In the example below the two axis soldiers between the SL and cap point effectively cancels the squads ability to spawn at the SL.



3. If this is feasible, it would also be nice to have a "bendy" corridor, preferrably using small control zones that can make the corridor smaller (use bezier curves with a few points maybe). Crudely drawn example below where the two axis soldiers will not break SL respawn:



Since I have no idea how the implement system actually works now, I'm just throwing these ideas out there, it might be totally fine the way it is :-) Might be an idea for a mutator if nothing else.

[Unus Offa, Unus Nex]

*scratches head* I'm confused...

[Forssen]

I guess with capzone you actually mean the normal spawnpoint if you don't spawn by the squadleader?

[Arete]

Originally Posted by Forssen

I guess with capzone you actually mean the normal spawnpoint if you don't spawn by the squadleader?

Yeah, apologies for the confusion :-)

[Rrralphster]

nvm...

[AntoxaGray]

Better than running 500 meters to battle just to get shot and then run again.

[CAKELIE]

Originally Posted by AntoxaGray

Better than running 500 meters to battle just to get shot and then run again.

For one, if you are playing on a map where you have to run 500 meters, why not find one where you have to run 50? And secondly, I look at it as a punishment for dying. If you die, you can't get right back into the action, you have to run up to it. And this also gives the tactical advantage of letting you choose your path, in stead of spawning in the middle of bullets.
Plus, I've rarely been spawnkilled in RO, if ever.

[Wesreidau]

Spawning near squad leaders and in-game squads is easily the best teamwork enhancing feature for a 'pick-up' combat game such as this. In Battlefield 2 the squad system was robust and gave teamwork-minded players a real ability to coordinate with their squadmates and continue that coordination over the course of a round. This made its realism mod PR tremendously teamwork-intensive. While I play Armed Assault pseudoreligiously and enjoy walking kilometers to the fight, I don't like making that walk alone to a squad leader who will be dead and respawned behind me before I get there.

I'm confident TWI has a spawn-stopping mechanism already in place that will prevent squad leaders from being magical teleportation beacons into enemy bunkers. Of particular interest, however, is how this is going to affect our urban combat. One squad could hold a house for quite a long time if its reinforcements didn't have to run through fire. But since TWI has said squad leaders under fire can't be respawned on, it opens a need for constant fire at occupied cover to 'fix' the enemy's numbers until friendlies can move in close for the actual kill.

I anticipate a lot more gunfire, and that's a good thing.

[Wesreidau]

Those who say something is impossible should not interrupt those who are doing it.

[AntoxaGray]

Originally Posted by CAKELIE

For one, if you are playing on a map where you have to run 500 meters, why not find one where you have to run 50? And secondly, I look at it as a punishment for dying. If you die, you can't get right back into the action, you have to run up to it…

Soldiers (the ones that respawn after death) don't wait 500 meters away from battle, until their comrades die, that's why spawning near leader is better.

[Actin]

The discussion whether the current system is needed compared to 'classic' respawning is kinda not the point of the OP.

I think that his idea can make the respawn system more tactically employable and make it worthwile for the enemy to disrupt a supply line.

Although the implementation will be quite hard (especially with the bend lines), but the idea is pretty good imho

[Unus Offa, Unus Nex]

Thing I don't understand is this "bendy" corridor feature, I mean whats the point? If I understood it right it basically just negates the idea of a corridor in the first place, since the corridor will just swerve past any enemy soldiers in its' way toward the SL.

[Arete]

Originally Posted by Actin

The discussion whether the current system is needed compared to 'classic' respawning is kinda not the point of the OP.

I think that his idea can make the respawn system more tactically employable and make it worthwile for the enemy to disrupt a supply line.

Although the implementation will be quite hard (especially with the bend lines), but the idea is pretty good imho

Exactly friend. I definitely think SL respawning is better than the classic respawning, I just wanted to discuss it's implementation a bit :-)

Originally Posted by Unus Offa, Unus Nex

Thing I don't understand is this "bendy" corridor feature, I mean whats the point? If I understood it right it basically just negates the idea of a corridor in the first place, since the corridor will just swerve past any enemy soldiers in its' way toward the SL.

Yeah the pic for the bendy line isn't that good now that I think about it. The thought process about it was that the corridor isn't necessarily a straight line between the last cap/spawn and the SL, it can bend so you actually can do flanking/circling manouvers.

[Arete]

Originally Posted by Wesreidau

Spawning near squad leaders and in-game squads is easily the best teamwork enhancing feature for a 'pick-up' combat game such as this. In Battlefield 2 the squad system was robust and gave teamwork-minded players a real ability to coordinate with their squadmates and continue that coordination over the course of a round. This made its realism mod PR tremendously teamwork-intensive. While I play Armed Assault pseudoreligiously and enjoy walking kilometers to the fight, I don't like making that walk alone to a squad leader who will be dead and respawned behind me before I get there.

I totally agree.

Originally Posted by Wesreidau

I'm confident TWI has a spawn-stopping mechanism already in place that will prevent squad leaders from being magical teleportation beacons into enemy bunkers. Of particular interest, however, is how this is going to affect our urban combat. One squad could hold a house for quite a long time if its reinforcements didn't have to run through fire. But since TWI has said squad leaders under fire can't be respawned on, it opens a need for constant fire at occupied cover to 'fix' the enemy's numbers until friendlies can move in close for the actual kill.

I anticipate a lot more gunfire, and that's a good thing.

I'm pretty confident TWI has done a good job with the spawn-stopping mechanism too, bit it's hard to speculate having so few details about it :-)
One thing I'm worried about in your particular scenario is just the fact that a well entrenched SL can just respawn his squad all the time, making it impossible to surround the building to keep people from coming in.
Imho the SL respawn system is there to remove the need to walk for 3 minutes before getting to the fight, but if a soldier couldn't have walked to the SL without getting into a fight on the way he shouldn't be able to just spawn on him either. Therefore; corridors :-) But just implementing growing zones as in example 1 should be pretty effective in stopping this.

[Actin]

Maybe it is better to follow the map.

To have an example take CS:S De_Dust 2 (point is still understandable if you don't know the map)
When SL is not reachable by A-short because there are enemies, than you can respawn on him with a delayed timer (e.g. 15 sec instead of 8).
This is because A-long is stil clear.
When there are enemies in both paths than the respawn is not even possible.

This also removes the problem that the supply line shouldn't be able to run through a solid wall.

Bad thing is that the mapper needs to create possible paths for this to work.

[Arete]

Originally Posted by Actin

Maybe it is better to follow the map.

To have an example take CS:S De_Dust 2 (point is still understandable if you don't know the map)
When SL is not reachable by A-short because there are enemies, than you can respawn on him with a delayed timer (e.g. 15 sec instead of 8).
This is because A-long is stil clear.
When there are enemies in both paths than the respawn is not even possible.

This also removes the problem that the supply line shouldn't be able to run through a solid wall.

Bad thing is that the mapper needs to create possible paths for this to work.

Hmmm... yeah, paths are a problem, especially when taking solid walls into account. Got me thinking of maybe letting the level designer put invisible "blocks" on the map which need to be connected all the way from the SL to the regular spawn point in order for respawning to be possible. This is tricky :-)

[Theironclap]

As long as you cant spawn entire platoons behind enemy lines a la BF2, I'm fine with it as is.

[Hypno Toad]

I think squad leader spawning does more good than bad. It's liable to raise a few problems, but it adds to teamwork, makes combat more intense (since you're usually with your squad) and elts fac eit, ahving to spend half the round looking for your squad leader just plain sucks.

I trust TW to make a pretty good system on this one

As long as you cant spawn entire platoons behind enemy lines a la BF2, I'm fine with it as is.

This may be somewhat unavoidable, but the absolute worst thin in BF2 was when you'd have a squad leader hiding like 10 meters from you, repeatedly spawning his squad. Me and a buddy played BF2 again some time ago, we were defending an objective and a squad leader went to the floor below us and repeatedly spawned his squad.

We literally had to wade though hordes of spawning squad members to finally make it to that blasted squad leader and kill him (had my trusty PKM :3). Though, I imagine TW has made the necessary precautions to avoid this freaking nightmare.

[Reise]

Considering the SL would have to wait upwards of 15 seconds or more for each respawning ally, it doesn't seem like this could ever be a problem.

It's a thing of convenience really. I suppose if there were some real teamwork going on and everyone managed to spawn at the same time, or use a forced respawn (which is a special ability with a cooldown in itsefl) you may have instances where a SL will come around a corner with his squad.

Aside from that it'll probably just appear to work as a normal spawn point, just closer to the action, and with fewer people coming from it. I doubt the whole team will be popping up by one SL.

[Arete]

Yeah I totally agree that SL respawning is a good mechanic, as stated I just wanted to bring up some ideas on how mechanics could be introduced to combat just what Toad described; an SL hides somewhere and continously spawn reinfs even though he's totally blocked off from any path of reinforcement (deep behind enemy lines, trapped in the top floor of a building, etc.).

This is just pure speculation on my part since we have very little detail of the mechanics that are in the game right now. I have trust in TWI to make a good system, but even a good system can always get better if you just throw some ideas at it :-)