Upgrading the PPSh-41

[Grobut]

Durring the on-location Crosshairs broadcast, the "upgrade" system for the PPSh-41 was revealed as including the following:

Lvl-1: PPSh-41 with no select fire, and only 35-round stick mags.
Lvl-2: PPSh-41 with no select fire, With only Drum mags.
Lvl-3: PPSh-41 with select fire, and with only Drum mags.

I am not happy with this for many reasons, reasons that include both historical accuracy and gameplay concearns, and in all honesty, i find this choice lazy and poorly exicuted.

But before i get into all that, i'd best explain the history of the PPSh so we're all on the same page here:

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Before the outbreak of the war, the Russians where buissy arming their troops with SMG's, having learned durring the winter war with Finland that such a weapon was needed on the frontlines.

Origionally the weapon that was supposed to accomplish this was the PPD-40, but manufacturing of that gun went too slow, prompting Shpagin to come up with a simpler design for mass production, the PPSh-41. The old PPD-40 was actually the better gun, but the demand for SMG's made the PPSh the wave of the future.

Type-1 of the PPSh was the best model they produced, it was a select fire SMG with a fully agjustable rear sight, similar to the rear sight found on the Mosin Nagant rifles and the PPD-40, and it is easilly recognized by that feature. This model was in production till late 1941, when production of the weapon could nolonger meet the demand for it, this is also possibly the rarest model of the PPSh-41.

Type-2 was a simplified version, changes where made to how some parts where stamped to hasten production, and the rear sight was replaced by the L-shaped flip sight that was much easier to make.
But thouse where the only changes made, the Type-2 was still a select-fire SMG, and was the most mass produced model of the PPSh, infact, it was the most mass produced model of any SMG durring WWII, and continued production throughout the war and well into the 1950's.
The Type-2 can be recognized by having the Flip-type rear sight, and the mode-selector inside the trigger guard, infront of the trigger, just like the Type-1 did.

In late 1944 (long after Stalingrad ended), demand for the PPSh once again skyrocketed, as the Red-Army where now trying to arm whole regiments with the weapon. This promted some, but not all, factories producing the PPSh to make a futher simplified version of the gun, the Type-3. The Type-3 is, basically, just a Type-2 with the fire-selector removed to hasten production, it could only fire full-auto.
The Type-3 is a rather rare gun, a lot where made and fielded, but it's numbers are dwarfed by the sheer amount of Type-2's allready made and still beeing produced, and it can be recognized by looking just like the Type-2, only without the fire-selector, only the trigger sits inside that long trigger-guard.

Another oddball late war PPSh was the Type-4, made at the end of 1944 or start of 1945. This model could only accept stick-type mags, a cage was build around the mag-well to prevent the insertion of a drum, and it is easilly recognized by this feature. Most of thease, like the Type-3, did not have the fire-selector, though apparently a few did.
The Type-4 was rare, maybe rarer than the Type-1, maybe not, i'm not sure.
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After that brief history lesson, it should be obvious why i'm not happy with TWI's currect plans on a historic level, but there's more to it than that..

Historical concearns:

1: All PPSh-41 SMG's made in 1942 and 1943, where the game takes place, had select fire, the Type-3 did not exist untill late 1944, so it makes no logical sense for a Type-3 to be in the game, it should be the Type-2.

2: The PPSh-41 Type-1 and 2 left the factories with a drum fitted for the gun, and it was issued with that drum. The normal loadout for this weapon was 1x 71-round drum which was carried loaded in the weapon, and then a few pouches full of 35-round stick-mags. That is how the grunt straight out of boot-camp would be armed.
Again, it was not untill late 1944 that loadouts consisting only of stick-mags began to see use, and thus it makes no sense that raw recruits in 1942/43 would be armed in such a way.

Gameplay concearns:

1: The Germans, for the most part, have better guns. The Kar-98K should have slightly better accuracy and range than the Mosin Nagant, better scopes are avalible too for the German sniper versions. The MG-34 is clearly superiour to the DP-28, and the MG-42 moreso if it gets included, and their mounted versions should still be better than the Maxim. The MKb-42 is without a doubt more usefull in most situation than the AVT-40, and the SVT-40's main advantage over the G-41 wont be there either since jamming isen't modelled.
Point is, the PPSh-41, along with the PTRS-41 and the F1-grenade, are the Russians only real chance at leveling the playing field, Ramm has said it himself, the Germans had an advantage with their MG's, but the Russians should have it with their SMG's, that's good balance! But now you want to nerf the PPSh!? why!? How does that make sense for the overall team balance? And what happens to said team balance if you include the MP-40/II as a German SMG unlock, further diminisghing the PPSh's leg up on the Germans?

2: Having the Lvl-1 PPSh only loaded with sticks, without having select-fire so we can try to conserve ammo that way, actually makes it a pretty poor beginners weapon. It's going to burn through thouse sticks real fast due to the ROF of the gun, and will thus require quite a bit of dicipline to use if you don't want to waste all your ammo.
That's something better suited to experianced players, not newbies, how's that "accessible"?

3: Why would unlocking Semi-auto at Lvl-3 be considdered a bonus? Using semi-auto is not something advanced that needs learning, fiering full-auto is harder than doing it Semi, and it was back at Lvl-1 you really needed it because you only had sticks, but it's a lot less usefull when you have an all-drum loadout.

4: What happens on realism servers? We know the whole ranking thing and bonus upgrades can be disabled for servers, leaving only the bare essentials (Lvl-1 weapons, i'm guessing) for thouse who want realism without the grinding.
But does that mean that "realism" servers will be stuck with an unrealistic PPSh that has neither it's drum nor select fire?

Personal gripes:

1: You guys made the same mistake in the mod and in Ost, where regardless of year, the Russians where allways stuck with a PPSh Type-3, that had the 3D model of a Type-2. It should allways just have been the Type-2, could we please see it fixed in the game's 3'rd outing? It has allways bothered me..

2: When this whole weapon-upgrade system was announced, TWI was quick to calm us down and promis us that that nothing silly and unrealistic would get included just for the sake of having upgrades.
But how is this not unrealistic, seeing as the gun you are including did not exist at the time? How is it not just to have easy upgrades?
This is lazy design, considdering the gameplay concearns above, there is no good reason to withhold Semi-auto, it's at Lvl-1 the gun really needs it, and at Lvl-3 it's just tossed in there for it's own sake, just to have an easy upgrade. And saying "sometimes realism must take the backseat to fun" is no excuse, because how is withholding Semi when we really need it fun? And why should we considder it a valuable upgrade to earn at Lvl-3 when we nolonger need it? Where is the fun in that? it's not like using Semi-auto with a 71-round drum is some kind of skill for us to learn, and most people will probably just ignore it at that point, making it a pointless upgrade at Lvl-3 in regards to gameplay.


Well, the above can perhabs be considdered a bit of a rant, and maybe rightly so (even though i feel valid critisism is also a good thing, since things don't get better if nobody points out it's flaws). So this is where i change gears and provide some solutions instead of just griping.

How about this for an upgrade system instead:

Lvl-1: PPSh-41 Type-2 (select fire), with one drum, and the rest of the ammo you get in stick-mags.

Lvl-2: Earn the abillity to select all drum-mags, as we can assume an experianced soldier has had a chance to pick up some additional drums from the dead, or has better connections with his quartermaster.

Lvl-3: Earn the abillity to select the rarer PPSh Type-1, with it's adjustable rear sight, or a PPD-40, which has a lower ROF and adjustable sight.


But ok, i realize that coding/animating a gun that uses two sepperate magazine models isen't easy (but it is doable! i have seen it done in UT99 mods on the UE 1.5 engine, so surely the UE3 engine can manage it), and maybe adding the code and anims would delay the release of the game. I also realize that adding two new weapons, the PPSh Type-1 and the PPD-40, is a tall order.
So for that reason, here is a more modest list that would be easier to impliment (i'd considder the abobe list ideal, but this would do also):

Lvl-1: PPSh-41 Type-2 (select fire), only issued with stick-mags.

Lvl-2: PPSh-41 Type-2 (select fire), only issued with Drum-mags (make this one the default for realism servers).

Lvl-3: Earn the PPSh-41 Type-1 (only needs a slight model and anim tweak, to impliment it's adjustable rear sight), or the PPD-40 (requires some more work to make, obviously), issued with drums, as an option besides the PPSh Type-2.


Surely that could both work, be implimented, and actually provide the Russians the needed booster against the better German MG's and Sniper-Rifles?
And if there's a conflict with the Elite-Smg class here, then the Normal-SMG class could be the one who earns the Type-1, and the Elite class could be the one who earns the superiour PPD-40.

[RedGuardist]

Well written, mate.

[Actin]

Although I disagree with the ranking system independent of what it consists of... when it is implemented it should indeed be natural and realistic.

Especially the semi-auto unlock... it was the only thing I strongly disagreed with after the interview.

Good thread!

[Forssen]

Finally, I have been waiting for this thread.

[hockeywarrior]

Nice post, and I really hope the developers listen to it.

I really think it would be silly having everyone running around with stick mags which were only introduced LATER as an option. Early on in the war, almost all PPSH's were outfitted with the drum magazine from the start. If anything, the drum mag should be default, with the option of a stick mag.

It's the OPTIONS and GAMEPLAY VARIETY that I want to unlock, rather than the game arbitrarily assigning worth to different items and totally disregarding historical accuracy.

[Nicholas]

This thread it awesome, I totally agree, the PPsh should not be watered down, the Germans have better lmg's but the Russians should have better smg's, like they did in real life....

You said that the K98 should be slightly more accurate, and you're probably right since it was a smoooooother and better made gun, but the advantage of the Mosin is that they were sighted in with bayonets, and they went into combat with bayonets, so I think this should be the case in RO2.

In fact, for the most part I think the Russians should be somewhat better at close range with all their gear, the Germans liked fighting at long range and making use of lmg's, while the Russians preferred close range fighting with bayonets and smg's.

[<animal>INSTINCT]

Nice job with historical fact-checking. Though the adjustible sights and select fire won't make any difference to me, personally... I'll be using the PPSH in the same way I always have: as a bullet hose

[Zetsumei]

Originally Posted by LemoN

I've been against the ranking system and unlocks from day one, and I actually was quite shocked when TWI announced the MP-40II. Anyway, kudos to you for typing out my thoughts.

Although bobdog names the MP-40II I can't remember hearing them say it made it in. The mp40II is a step too far for me. I would rather see a mp40 with a second mag ducktaped to the side for fast reloading :X

Although in the general sense unlocks and stuff do not matter that much for me in general as long as in the end the majority of the people end up using something that was common. Rather than everybody using a special weapon with nobody and a kar98.

As grobut said a concern of mine is at what levels people on servers without ranking are stuck at. Are they all like fresh recruits then, or will it be somewhere in the middle. Clans won't be happy if they are all forced to use say rusty inaccurate weaponry.

[Unus Offa, Unus Nex]

Good post Grobut, I agree on all points.

[Bobdog]

Originally Posted by Zetsumei

Although bobdog names the MP-40II I can't remember hearing them say it made it in. The mp40II is a step too far for me. I would rather see a mp40 with a second mag ducktaped to the side for fast reloading :X

I never said that.

[Flogger23m]

I completely agree with Grobut. On just about every point.

Drums or sticks only? No option for using both at the sametime? I was hoping RO2 would do it as not many games allow for using both drums and mags for the same gun at the sametime. There is the ArmA series, but the model doesn't change nor does the animation. I know the INF mod did it (where you can stick a 30 round mag into an M249), and I would have liked to see a modern game do it to. Would have been more unique than a generic upgrade system that all modern games have. And its not very realistic to be limited to only sticks either.

Would also have been nice to model the advantages/disadvantages of the sticks VS mags - sticks are quicker to reload, but require more frequent reloading.

Originally Posted by LemoN

I've been against the ranking system and unlocks from day one, and I actually was quite shocked when TWI announced the MP-40II.

Anyway, kudos to you for typing out my thoughts.

That is really in? Was that even used or mass produced?

Originally Posted by Zetsumei

I would rather see a mp40 with a second mag ducktaped to the side for fast reloading :X

Was duct tape even inveted back then?

[Bobdog]

Yeah, where was this announced? I don't remember hearing it anywhere official; only in the suggestions forum.

[Colt .45 killer]

very well written, And I like the suggestions you made for a fix, of course I'm always up for new guns, but it seemed like there was more to gain / strive for there....

[Grobut]

Overall i don't considder unlocks or the special guns all that big a problem, i'm not fond of thease things, and my choice in servers will probably favour the ones that don't use them, but i can see why TWI would want to include them. We all want HoS to see more players, and if that's the gimmick that does it, well, i can live with that, and the options for realism servers does exist.

But this deal with the PPSh is the odd one out, it is the only standard weapon (that isen't a high-level unlock in itself) that, at Lvl-1, will not be a historically accurate weapon for this game, and it has me baffled..


If we ignore the realism aspect of it for a moment here, and focus only on gameplay (just to show that this isen't just pointless rivet-counting), then what purpose does a PPSh-41 with no semi and no drum-mag serve for this game? Why would it need to be there as the standard Russian SMG?


I can see no good reason for it, it doesen't boost immersion and realism, but nor can i see how it could possibly aid the gameplay and balance of the game..

On paper, it may sound balanced that the MP-40 and PPSh stick mags hold allmost the same amount of ammo.
It may also initially seem imbalanced that the PPSh gets semi and the MP-40 does not.

But this logic breaks down when you really considder the difference of the ROF's. The PPSh's ROF is extreme, and even with the lowered SMG recoil of HoS, it should be harder to hold that gun on target and score clean hits with it on auto.
It will also burn through thouse stick mags much faster, leading to more frequent reloads, and made worse by the above point that it's harder to keep on target.
And the lack of Semi is not a problem on the MP-40, fast-clicking the mouse, i had no problems getting the MP-40 in Ost to only fire single shots, but with the PPSh, even the fastest clicks i can muster would let off 3 shots minimum.

And besides that, wasen't it the whole point that the PPSh and MP-40 should not be directly balanced against eachother in the first place? But rather, that the PPSh acts as team-balance against the superiour German LMG's?

Well, considdering the above points, i not only fail to see how the planned Lvl-1 of the PPSh can act as a counter to the German LMG's, i have my serious doubts it will even be as usefull as the Lvl-1 MP-40, which will probably be a lot easier to use, hurting the team-balance of the game even futher.
That balance problem woulden't really go away untill people hit Lvl-2, but we've been told that leveling up is going to take a long time, months of regular play.


Does anyone disagree with that assesment? Can anyone point out ways that the planned system would be benificial to gameplay? I'd be interested in hearing it, because i've tossed this around in my head ever since the broadcast, and really tried to look at it from different angles, and i only see the potential problems when i do.

[Nimsky]

Originally Posted by Grobut

How about this for an upgrade system instead:

Lvl-1: PPSh-41 Type-2 (select fire), with one drum, and the rest of the ammo you get in stick-mags.

Lvl-2: Earn the abillity to select all drum-mags, as we can assume an experianced soldier has had a chance to pick up some additional drums from the dead, or has better connections with his quartermaster.

Lvl-3: Earn the abillity to select the rarer PPSh Type-1, with it's adjustable rear sight, or a PPD-40, which has a lower ROF and adjustable sight.

YouTube - bravo

Awesome post, agreed with everything and especially with the quoted bit.

[Nicholas]

I agree, trying to make everything perfectly evenly balanced does not work and is not accurate.

[<animal>INSTINCT]

Originally Posted by Nimsky

YouTube - bravo

Awesome post, agreed with everything and especially with the quoted bit.

A +1 to you for use of a Blackadder reference

[Direct]

I dont understand why youre not able to use full-auto or semi-auto when the selector switch is RIGHT ON THE GUN.

Imo just have 2-3 drum mags for level one, and for level 2 allow 1 drum mag and 6-8 box magazines

[Grobut]

Originally Posted by Forssen

Finally, I have been waiting for this thread.

Wait.. then why didn't you make a thread about it!?

*Le sigh*, i just know John, Alan or one of the other guys are going to come and be all grumpy at me again, why do i allways have to be the bad guy?

[Roflrocket]

I agree with this, ppsh box magazines REALLY aren't needed in the game. I just hope that it doesn't take long for you to get a drum mag so you don't see everyone running around with box mags.