Heavy tanks in RO2:HOS

[Oldih]

Originally Posted by dogbadger

So despite some ppl's protests that the tank maps were biased and no fun, they were happy.

To be honest the 'official' DH tank maps were pretty well designed regarding asymmetrical balance, but I've yet to see any custom tank map that isn't basically TDs vs heavies on really open cardboard cutout maps with objectives all around the place.

Originally Posted by Tank!

If that is a joke then they might need mental help.

Care to explain why? Humour not allowed when it comes to anything 'factual' ? I'd be more worried if you saw some academic history research going like that than some people deliberately poking with a subject that is bound to cause sparks OTI.

[CopperHead]

Originally Posted by dogbadger

no doubt a disappointment if you habitually play as ger and typically get your arse kicked.

I don't know what frame of logic you operate under, but I don't want something in the game just because I lose without it. Now, if this describes you, then that's fine, but don't come in here pushing your style on us.

I just wanted to see the KT in RO. It should have been in. It's really cool that it made it into DH, I like that.

Hopefully if they make some sort of kursk expansion, or some other later war scenario, they model more than just a tiger.

[Justd1e]

The tiger tank was a complete failure strategically wise. Most of the breakdowns required it to be returned to the factory, the weight made the retrieval and even changing of tracks a hard task. It was designed as a heavy assault tank yet was used mostly to shut armor dangerous areas around the front. which was something hard to do which such a heavy machine that needed a long time to be deployed on a train( had to change the tracks for this). Not to mention that Germany lacked Volfram and other metals that were used in composits which negatively affected the quality of German armor and the amount of available APCR ammunition. I suggest on reading "Tigers In Mud" By Otto Carius to get the idea of what it was like to operate a tiger on the eastern front.

[darktimes]

the next, logical thing to implement would be
the Panzer IV H.
http://www.achtungpanzer.com/images/iv.jpg
the most largely produced panzer four variant... with thicker armor and schürzen, which made it practically impossible to penetrate with anti tank rifles.

and the T34/85

http://www.geocities.jp/saimitsutoge...4-85-ba_13.jpg

logical choice. really. and easy on the resources of the team.

[RedGuardist]

PZ IV H was entered on production in April 1943 and T-34/85 entered in serious production in january 1944. So they wouldn´t fit in the time perspective of Battle of Stalingrad. Like said by many, assault guns like StuG and SU76 might be the next step, but it´s just guessing. Those you suggested, would fit in if there ever was some sort of late war expansion or something.

[Teufel Hund]

Originally Posted by CCCP

I would like to see KV-1 ( not "s" thou). Personally my favorite.
http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...ad.php?t=88750

Let's not forget the KV-2. Truly a monster early in the war.

But for the most part, I really prefer the lighter armored vehicles for the size of the battles we're dealing with in RO. The SdKfz. 221 and 222 have always been favorites of mine. Along with all of the variants of the SdKfz. 250 and 251 of course. For the Russians there's the BA-10 and BA-64.

[RedGuardist]

Originally Posted by Teufel Hund

But for the most part, I really prefer the lighter armored vehicles for the size of the battles we're dealing with in RO. The SdKfz. 221 and 222 have always been favorites of mine. Along with all of the variants of the SdKfz. 250 and 251 of course. For the Russians there's the BA-10 and BA-64.

But those were scout vehicles (with the exeption of SdKfz. 250 and 251 being used also to other duties), which don´t really have room in a game like RO. Maps are too small and there´s no need for actual reconnaissance. If there was need for reconnaissance, then it would be a different story.

[Roflrocket]

Originally Posted by Tiger2

Why is such a crude tank as is-2 so popular on this forum? It had poor optics, a 24 or 28 shell capacity and was generally a lot less reliable and maneuverable than the t-34/85. Even when the americans tried to copy the German tiger which was a successful design they came up with a very poor and embarrassingly inferior prototype that was eventually to become their pershing. This pershing had similar armor quality but inferior gun to the tiger and it was produced so late into the war, that it did not see any significant action.

because is 2 is god

[RedGuardist]

Originally Posted by Roflrocket

because is 2 is The God

fixed

[Teufel Hund]

Originally Posted by RedGuardist

But those were scout vehicles (with the exeption of SdKfz. 250 and 251 being used also to other duties), which don´t really have room in a game like RO. Maps are too small and there´s no need for actual reconnaissance. If there was need for reconnaissance, then it would be a different story.

I think that's more an issue of map design. Does every map necessarily have to be a full scale battle? Could we not also have maps that were a recon mission that was ambushed? Or two recon missions that ran into each other? Also keep in mind that German reconnaissance doctrine was very aggressive. Their recon missions often also included sabotage and harassment behind the lines, or counter-reconnaissance. These vehicles were also used by security forces in anti-partisan missions as well.

I feel they'd be very welcome additions to the game.

[Tomcat_ha]

Originally Posted by Teufel Hund

I think that's more an issue of map design. Does every map necessarily have to be a full scale battle? Could we not also have maps that were a recon mission that was ambushed? Or two recon missions that ran into each other? Also keep in mind that German reconnaissance doctrine was very aggressive. Their recon missions often also included sabotage and harassment behind the lines, or counter-reconnaissance. These vehicles were also used by security forces in anti-partisan missions as well.

I feel they'd be very welcome additions to the game.

agree completely, i never was one for most RO maps with masses of people. For me ro at its best was 7v7 till 12v12.
sure some maps still are better with a higher playcount but that is where the soul of RO lies imho.

[RedGuardist]

Originally Posted by Teufel Hund

I think that's more an issue of map design. Does every map necessarily have to be a full scale battle? Could we not also have maps that were a recon mission that was ambushed? Or two recon missions that ran into each other? Also keep in mind that German reconnaissance doctrine was very aggressive. Their recon missions often also included sabotage and harassment behind the lines, or counter-reconnaissance. These vehicles were also used by security forces in anti-partisan missions as well.

I feel they'd be very welcome additions to the game.

When you put it that way, I sort of agree. They would just have to cut the reinforcements very low etc. on that kind of maps. Then it might work.

It just crossed my mind, but I wonder if it would be possible to make maps, where you first have reconnaissance vehicles and after contact is made tankers would spawn (after a reasonable delay) in actual battle vehicles? Well, that sort of map would also have to be very large.

[Major_Day]

But what would the recon vehicles be looking for?
If the tanks dont spawn until later, their would be no contact,apart from enemy recon vehicles,and besides everybody knows where the spawn points are,you don't need to go looking for them.

[RedGuardist]

Originally Posted by Major_Day

But what would the recon vehicles be looking for?
If the tanks dont spawn until later, their would be no contact,apart from enemy recon vehicles,and besides everybody knows where the spawn points are,you don't need to go looking for them.

The spawn points should be randomed etc. so my idea would need all kind of nerfing. And I don´t actually even think it as a good idea, it might be too complicated to bring anything new.

[Grobut]

Originally Posted by CopperHead

I don't know what frame of logic you operate under, but I don't want something in the game just because I lose without it. Now, if this describes you, then that's fine, but don't come in here pushing your style on us.

No, there's some community history there that you are probably not aware of, and trust me, you don't want to get involved..

[Unus Offa, Unus Nex]

Originally Posted by Hypno Toad

When talking about Balance you need to remember that not all balance needs to be symmetrical. You can have asymmetrical balance, which in my opinion is way more fun.

Symmetrical Balance would be one two T34's vs two Panzers. Asymmetrical Balance would two T34s vs one Tiger, and a better tactical advantage for the Soviets to compensate.

Spot on Hypno Toad!

What this game should aim towards is realism in terms of the characteristics of the weapons & vehicles featured, with balance being achieved through distribution of numbers and starting positions.

For example, if the battle of Kursk ever is to be recreated in the game, then the Russians should naturally be much less penalized for each tank (& infantryman) lost than the Germans in terms of the percentage of reinforcement figure lost. Additionally the Germans should have to advance and take a certain amount of points on the map to win. This will balance out the obvious advantage the Germans will have in equipment during long range engagements, and keep them from just sitting still in one spot and popping Russian tanks at long range. They will have to advance and take the points to win, and in doing so they will expose their weaker flanks. Also there should be plenty of craters, small bushes etc etc present for Russian infantry to hide in and launch ambushes on German tanks.

Just as it happened when the real battle was raging, with the Germans initially enjoying a lot of success because their tanks were much superior in the long range combat that initially occured. But then gradually the fighting diminished into closer and closer range engagements, and the Germans soon found themselves on a level playing field with the Russians as the ranges closed to within 300 meters, with well hidden Russian infantry launching successful ambushes on German tanks, using mines, satchel charges, AT guns & rifles, smoke and artillery to take a heavy toll on the German panzers.

[Tiger2]

red guardist you gave me an idea.

randomised objectives on very large maps. The objective can be represented by a tent with some crates, a partisan safe house etc. One side ("the Scouts") has to find these objectives to win. The other side is stronger and has to intercept the Scouts. The scouts are given rough intelligence on suspected positions of the objectives and enemy force.