Demolitions - I haz money! Now can haz weaponz!

[Yoshiro]

Please discuss the changes made to the demolition class in terms of making him a bit more viable due to price changes.

[9_6]

The law is lawltastic now.
It can stay that way and we can call it done imo.

Grenade prices are good too.

[҈Oc†ө]

I think there's a bug, lev6 demos can buy up to 22 rockets now.

Well, to be honest i love the new LAW with 20 rockets, it alows you to shot less acurately and spam some extra rockets around. If you play with a team from 4 and up should not be a big problem to survive without a close range side gun (9mm apart).

I've played on most of maps with it and it was fun, but a bit boring sometimes just sitting and waiting for groups or big zeds comming. On the other hand, if your team is not well coordinated you'll probably be the first one to die at close range combat.

Money: well, the discount is apreciated, but it's still an expensive perk to maintain. Pipes are still unafordable if you got the LAW too, only solution is to ask for money, which in beta servers is not a problem but on regular random servers cloud be a BIG one.

Best solution by now is to do wave 1 and 2 (maybe 3 too) as zerker to save max money, then switch to demo, sell chainsaw and get LAW and possibly pipes.

Just a matter of personal tastes, but i still preffer to be a support + LAW + shotgun, and use the shootie most of time and then the LAW for the big targets. I feel much more integrated in the gameplay this way and i have much more fun not just sitting and waiting.

I know the answer would probably be a big NO, but, what do you think about making the LAW a double perk weapon? i mean a demo perk weapon with demo bonuses and a support weapon with support bonuses (penetration, ammo capacity etc).

[҈Oc†ө]

Also, i said it before, but sometimes LAW doenst work as expected, odd things occur within the 10 meters arming range.

Sometimes the rocket do explode but only kills the hitted target, sometimes explode and dont kill any, others gets through a target and just dissapears with or without killing him. It's a bit unpredictable at mid/close range. Is this intended?

Another question, if you shoot a target inside the 10 meters arming range but the rocket dont explode, can you confirm it does impact damage? if so, how much damage? same as explosive?

[EonSeig]

Impacts do something like 250 damage and a 2x headshot modifer for who knows what reason. You can 1-hit headshot a Husk or Siren, and they both have slightly over 400 head HP.

Explosives have always had bizarre behaviors. Like you've already mentioned, rockets can sometimes fly right through a ZED and not appear to explode, but still kill the ZED and whatever was around it before it flies off into the distance. Rockets and grenades also sometimes obviously go off a considerable distance and explode no where near you, but somehow still hurt you and sometimes kill you instantly even though they exploded on the other side of the map.

[SMIFF]

LAW is an absolute monster now.

[Zonker]

Originally Posted by EonSeig

Explosives have always had bizarre behaviors. Like you've already mentioned, rockets can sometimes fly right through a ZED and not appear to explode, but still kill the ZED and whatever was around it before it flies off into the distance. Rockets and grenades also sometimes obviously go off a considerable distance and explode no where near you, but somehow still hurt you and sometimes kill you instantly even though they exploded on the other side of the map.

I guess most of these effects are based on differences between server and client info. Thrown hand grenades may appear as if they'd fly quite some distance when in reality (or better: server side) they hit something right in front of you and damage you upon explosion.

Someone else in some thread also suggested that "fly-through" rockets and launcher grenades are also a client side quirk, as the server says they exploded (thus dealing damage to the zed and surroundings) but the client thinks it didn't.

I don't know if this is what really happens, but it sounds plausible to me.

[Xienen]

I believe Zonker is correct about this one. We definitely have some client server differences causing oddities in a few places.

[scary ghost]

Went LAW demo with Devante to cover me. Devante joined midway through wave 5 so I tossed out money his way. I still had enough to buy armor, stock up on 11 nades, 22 rockets, and grab a machette as I was playing zerker from waves 1-5. You can skip to the next video after wave 6 since I went back to zerker for wave 7.

YouTube - Killing Floor - 1015 Beta Patch 5 - Wave 6 to 8 LAW and Melee on Suicidal Part 1

We both went LAW demo for the patriarch fight. I was running short on money so I was only able to buy 17 rockets.

YouTube - Killing Floor - 1015 Beta Patch 5 - Wave 6 to 8 LAW and Melee on Suicidal Part 2

The ammo pricing and increased rockets is very welcomed. With the extra rockets, the demo can afford to be a bit more spammy with the LAW. The extra rockets certainly help in deciding if you want a LAW over m32 and if you want to use the LAW as a demo over another perk. Still, a LAW demo relies entirely on his team to protect him, which is perfectly fine as he has 20 rockets at his disposal now. Devante was able to cover me for most of wave 6 but when he ran out of ammo, I was out of luck and ended up getting over run. Though before that happened, we were able to take out a fleshpound with a LAW direct hit and some nades and kill scrakes fairly easily.

I agree with 9_6 in that "the law is lawltastic now". The extra rockets and ammo discount make it desirable to use as a demo while still keeping it a debatable choice between itself and an m32.

[EonSeig]

LAWR!

I would say this beta has been victorious for the LAW.

[Sammers]

Originally Posted by [TW]Xienen

I believe Zonker is correct about this one. We definitely have some client server differences causing oddities in a few places.

Makes sense, since the testing servers are about a million ping for some of us

[Vintage]

I am satisfied with the LAW now. The extra rocket supply decreases the down time between shots, so there is less time standing there doing nothing. Much more fun to use now, and I don't mind pulling a Machete out when I have too since I can spend most of the round firing the LAW at opportune targets.

[Bandit451]

I would like to echo Vintage's comment, The new LAW+Machete combo is fun and I feel like I am pulling my weight. Congrats TWI, you have given us a fun new loadout with the beta.

[Voodoo Shoe]

Not 100% sure what you have done with the Demoman but if he has had any buffs then hes even more OP because he was always OP in the first place at higher levels.

But the LAW ammo upgrade seems nice

[HaTeMe]

Originally Posted by 9_6

The law is lawltastic now.
It can stay that way and we can call it done imo.

Grenade prices are good too.

Yeah. I think this is finally a success.

While the weapon is very powerful now, you have to rely on teammates to back you up or else youll be screwed since the only backup weapons you can get is the matchete or pipebombs, and I can pretty much guarantee you cant afford to buy 8 pipebombs every round like before (I was barely able to buy 2 on suicidal...).

All in all, seems balanced now.

Originally Posted by Voodoo Shoe

Not 100% sure what you have done with the Demoman but if he has had any buffs then hes even more OP because he was always OP in the first place at higher levels.

You could try playing something else than Normal difficulty for a change. You might notice that the demolitions perk isnt exactly that useful on higher difficulties.

[Deafmute]

Originally Posted by Voodoo Shoe

Not 100% sure what you have done with the Demoman but if he has had any buffs then hes even more OP because he was always OP in the first place at higher levels.

But the LAW ammo upgrade seems nice

You're joking right? Demo sucked on Suicidal. More of an annoyance than anything.

[EonSeig]

It is possible to buy the LAW on wave 2 by selling everything you spawned with if you managed to kill most of the first wave yourself, at least on the new weaker Suicidal. Once I bought it I was able to buy at least 8 rockets and then conserve my ammo for the second wave. I had full armor and most of my rockets purchased by wave 4 of a 4 man game.

That and 3 other guys also had the LAW by then.

[҈Oc†ө]

Originally Posted by [TW]Xienen

I believe Zonker is correct about this one. We definitely have some client server differences causing oddities in a few places.

I can understand this in some cases, when you throw a nade and you see it flying in the air far from you but sudently explodes in your face it's probably due to the lag or bad ping or whatever.

But i've been testing this a bit more in on servers and in solo mode and still happens the same odd things. Right now i LAWed a rocket to a gorefast body very close to me, the rocket impacted the gorefast, felt to the floor without exploding, stunned the gorefast and he survived to a LAW impact

Unfortunately i have no idea on how to record a video ingame to show you all that this and other odd things really happen, specially with the new LAW, and much more frequently than what you seem to think. I've been the last days playing almost exclusively with the LAW, in big and tiny maps, and i really don't think it's caused by server-client differences, but for a random bug hidden somewhere.

Could you all (not only TW) please take the time to test/verify this further?, just to be sure that everything is really ok and works as expected/designed before this patch finally comes out.


EDIT: i can also remember a game, with zonker in biotics thogh, where i shooted a Husk with a rocket and the rocket passed through it, stunning him but without killing him. The funny thing is that the other players and zonker as well saw the same thing happening, not only me, so that could hardly be a server-client mismatch

[Voodoo Shoe]

Originally Posted by HaTeMe

You could try playing something else than Normal difficulty for a change. You might notice that the demolitions perk isnt exactly that useful on higher difficulties.

what what and WHAT?!? his dropping speed is INSANE on every difficulty..including suicidal!...mines only level 5 and i drop zeds like no business.

If you place pipebombs down and lure scrakes and FP into them which i assume you know how to do coz me playing on normal obvioulsy has clouded my judgement...you would know that the only threat to a demoman is.... himself!

Originally Posted by Deafmute

You're joking right? Demo sucked on Suicidal. More of an annoyance than anything.

Well all i know is this....if you have no SS or a wonky aimer with a crossbow...you want a demoman in your squad!
They dispatch zeds quicker then any other perk..sure you have a little smoke after but man...the demo is a powehouse!

dunno how you guys cant see that?

[SMIFF]

Grenades should pass through team mates, like no collision or something.
Could minimize the blowing yourself up bug.