Killing Floor 1015 Balanc Patch 5

[Voodoo Shoe]

Originally Posted by Yoshiro

Change Log:

Difficulty:
Added a new difficulty (this is the current KF Suicidal version you are already playing), called Hell on Earth.

Do you know what i love?.....people that pay homage to the genius John Carmack lol .....even if this name wasn't intentional..., you have still stolen my heart.

I was 3rd best in Britain at D2DM ...should have been second but people butt kissed Macca's *** because he worked for a damn PC Magazine

Sharpshooter:
Changed Fleshpound anti head shot multiplier to .35 (between the previous rounds .3 and .4)
Lowered the M14 base damage by 6
Fixed Winchester firing from stopping fall damage from taking place(thanks to Benjamin on this one)
Reduced Dual Hand Cannon effectiveness for Sharpshooters. Removed body shot bonus

That sounds pretty okay actually...dual HC were over kill on crowd spamming.

So what exactly is the Base damage in total now with the EBR now its been lowered?
Still think its the shot speed thats the issue and not the actual damage.

[outofrealman]

Originally Posted by Evilsod

9mm requires accuracy. Dual Handcannons required nothing but a fast spam of Mouse1. Husk that you don't have time to aim at? DHC spam it. Siren surprised you? DHC spam it. Getting rushed? DHC spam it. You get 96 bullets and if you use maybe 8 max per Husk or Siren and 16 per rush you can do alot of damage with your backup weapon because otherwise they serve no purpose.

It was a very random change, completely out of the blue, but pretending they weren't overpowered is ridiculous. There was no reason to aim with them because the RoF could put out that much DPS it overcame everything and at the end of the day not having to aim is exactly the problem everyones been complaining about the M14 for.

Increase the weight of dual cannon is the way to go, NOT THIS. We dont need another magical gun other than the hunting shotgun.

[scary ghost]

Originally Posted by [TW]Xienen

Ah, right, we can prolly take it away from alt fire, but I just didn't want to remove it for primary fire.

EDIT: Upon further inspection, that is the way it's working already. Only primary fire has a random factor in it =)

Hey Xienen, I don't think the fix for random damage removal is working.

KFMeleeFire.Timer()

    MyDamage = damageConst + MaxAdditionalDamage;

    If( !KFWeapon(Weapon).bNoHit )
    {
        MyDamage = damageConst + Rand(MaxAdditionalDamage);
        //More code
        HitActor.TakeDamage(MyDamage, Instigator, HitLocation, vector(PointRot), hitDamageClass) ;
        //More code
    }

The target's TakeDamage function is called within that top if statement. However, the very first line of that if statement overwrites the original MyDamage value, which is set to be at max damage.

You can see it in effect in this video:

YouTube - Killing Floor - 1015 Beta 5 - Melee Damage is Still Random

The max damage you can do as a level 6 zerker with an axe alt fire head shot is:

[perked axe alt fire head shot] (200+75) * 1.25 * 2 = 687.5 damage

A level 6 SS with a LAR can do:

[perked lar head shot] 140 * 1.6 * 2 * 1.5 = 672 damage

A level 6 SS can stun a scrake with a lar head shot yet as you can see in my video, I only get 1 stunning blow. Also, the max katana damage you can deal is:

[perked katana body shot] (100+35) * 2 = 270 damage
[clot hp on suicidal] 130 * 1.75 = 227 hp

But again, I sometimes can kill a clot with a body shot in 1 hit, sometimes it's 2. I hit an (un)lucky streak where the first minute of clot killing ends up being ohko. FF to the 2:10 mark where 1 body shot doesn't cut it anymore. By the way, I thought chainsaw was supposed to be in slot 3, but it appears it has been moved to 4 for this patch?

[outofrealman]

Originally Posted by scary ghost

By the way, I thought chainsaw was supposed to be in slot 3, but it appears it has been moved to 4 for this patch?

I believe they make it to 4 because you normally dont use anything on slot 4 as a zerker.

[Aze]

All the changes are great... except one:

" Reduced Dual Hand Cannon effectiveness for Sharpshooters. Removed body shot bonus "

Why not cut the body shot bonus in half for both single and dual? Why did you have to go with the "magical weapon" route? We already have the Hunting Shotgun for that -.-

You could had done so many other things: Reduce the recoil bonus (would reduce spammability with ALL Sharpie weapons, which is good) and/or reduce the reload bonus (would make the Sharpshooter worse at sustained burst, which is good) and/or reduce the general damage bonus and compensated with more headshot damage (so a headshot would be as powerful as always, but bodyshot worse, which is good) but you go the magical weapon way? *sigh*

[Aze]

Originally Posted by outofrealman

Increase the weight of dual cannon is the way to go, NOT THIS. We dont need another magical gun other than the hunting shotgun.

No, increasing the weight is NOT the way to go. I have explained so many times why now so i wont explain it again except this short line: Dual HC contra Single HC has no change in TOTAL power, thus, a weight change is a bad sense of balance.

The way to go is a general change of the Sharpshooter, like:
Reduced recoil bonus and/or reduced reload bonus and/or move some of the bodyshot bonus over to headshot bonus (keeping a headshot the same in power as now, but bodyshot lower than before).

Weight change or single/dual damage difference is NOT the way to go!

[outofrealman]

Originally Posted by Aze

The way to go is a general change of the Sharpshooter, like:
Reduced recoil bonus and/or reduced reload bonus and/or move some of the bodyshot bonus over to headshot bonus (keeping a headshot the same in power as now, but bodyshot lower than before).

Weight change or single/dual damage difference is NOT the way to go!

Well, all of your suggestion works IMO. I just happen to think that increase weight makes more sense... one cannon weights 4 kg, and you have two of them. How much they weight now? 4kg, again

Anyway, I agree the idea of reduce recoil bonus, reload bonus and move some of the bodyshot bonus over to headshot bonus.

[Aze]

Originally Posted by outofrealman

Well, all of your suggestion works IMO. I just happen to think that increase weight makes more sense... one cannon weights 4 kg, and you have two of them. How much they weight now? 4kg, again

While it obviously doesn't make sense "logically", it is very, very logical in terms of BALANCE. The only thing i can agreed on is that if the Dual HC weighs more (from 4 to 6 for example) then he needs 50% more ammo (weight from 4 to 6 is a 50% increase) BUT that increases the spammability anyway :/
Thus, recoil / reload / body>headshot shifting is a better way to do it.

Anyway, I agree the idea of reduce recoil bonus, reload bonus and move some of the bodyshot bonus over to headshot bonus.

[Evilsod]

The main problem with the change is that the weights of the single Handcannon (and Dual 9mm).

Right now theres no point in taking a single Handcannon. Its always a backup weapon, either you take it with an Xbow, the M14 or the LAR, or other perks take it to supplement whatever they're using if they can't spare weight for a LAR, single will only be chosen because of money issues. The only reason to take it out is to spam it at something which means the DHC will always be better and requires very little aiming purely because they weigh exactly the same. Surely it must be possible to make each Handcannon weigh 2? Hell even 3 and 1 would be better than 4 and 0. And to make the Dual 9mm weigh 1 or 2 because its too heavy to ever be worth taking.

[outofrealman]

Originally Posted by Evilsod

The main problem with the change is that the weights of the single Handcannon (and Dual 9mm).

Right now theres no point in taking a single Handcannon. Its always a backup weapon, either you take it with an Xbow, the M14 or the LAR, or other perks take it to supplement whatever they're using if they can't spare weight for a LAR, single will only be chosen because of money issues. The only reason to take it out is to spam it at something which means the DHC will always be better and requires very little aiming purely because they weigh exactly the same. Surely it must be possible to make each Handcannon weigh 2? Hell even 3 and 1 would be better than 4 and 0. And to make the Dual 9mm weigh 1 or 2 because its too heavy to ever be worth taking.

No, I dont use dual handguns, at all. Because single handgun can hit exactly the centre of the screen. And dual handgun only give you this guarantee on the first shot. And as no matter single or dual cannon gives me 96 shots, so I myself will not consider to buy another cannon.

Originally Posted by Galslacht

QFT!

On another note, will there be any chance that new steam achievements will be added along with the new difficulty (and recent map)?

Those four newly added maps... I just dont like them. If there's achievements, I believe many players will just achieve them on solo mode. As those map just... not good.

[Deafmute]

Originally Posted by Voodoo Shoe

Do you know what i love?.....people that pay homage to the genius John Carmack lol .....even if this name wasn't intentional..., you have still stolen my heart.

Yeah, the name reminded me of Doom immediately. Love it.

[Leliel]

Originally Posted by Yoshiro

They will stay suicidal. Hell on Earth will be treated as a whole new difficulty level (since it is).

You say this like there will actually /be/ achievements for HoE... if you're finally going to update the 'cheeves list is there any chance we'll see ones for the new maps? "New" as in "less than a year old" anyway :3

[Salad Snake]

Originally Posted by Evilsod

The main problem with the change is that the weights of the single Handcannon (and Dual 9mm).

Right now theres no point in taking a single Handcannon. Its always a backup weapon, either you take it with an Xbow, the M14 or the LAR, or other perks take it to supplement whatever they're using if they can't spare weight for a LAR, single will only be chosen because of money issues. The only reason to take it out is to spam it at something which means the DHC will always be better and requires very little aiming purely because they weigh exactly the same. Surely it must be possible to make each Handcannon weigh 2? Hell even 3 and 1 would be better than 4 and 0. And to make the Dual 9mm weigh 1 or 2 because its too heavy to ever be worth taking.

This. I find it harder to aim sometimes with the single HC due to the fact that it's sights obscure the Zed you're aiming at, and that the gun kicks up to completely obscure the screen when firing rapidly. Making them both 2 also opens up new potential loadouts.

[Undedd Jester]

Incidently I played the Support Specialist the other day (which was considered to be bordering on being OP'd) and I actually found they got a clever nerf in the patch too to give them a weakness

Supports were very verstaile cause they could mob effectively, weld quickly and have a good pop at the big guys alone. It just required good use of weapon swaps and good timing. The Scrake before was quite easy cause all you had to do was pump action/AA-12 it in the face until its health dropped below 50%, then rapid fire until it got close and Hunting Shotgun gank it to finish it off.

With the Scrake raging with still 75% health this tactic is no where near as effective, and makes the Support a little less versatile... Supports now fear the Scrake. Very sly TWI, I'm impressed

[EonSeig]

Not really. It just requires a but more thought now than putting 2 double shots into a Scrake's head. Just spam a bit of AA12 into the face and then blast him with Hunty and it's one dead Scrake. Supports were never supposed to be Scrake counters, though, and they cause you to waste a lot of ammo.

[9_6]

Originally Posted by Evilsod

The only reason to take it out is to spam it at something which means the DHC will always be better and requires very little aiming purely because they weigh exactly the same.

Am I really the only one here who uses that (singular) thing as a main weapon and aims for heads?
You can spend an entire wave with nothing but a handcannon an do well. It's pretty awesome at that you know.
I pick it over the m14.
Why is it only regarded as the "spam weapon"? The only thing I spam is the patriarch when he is in my face.

Yeah, it does the commandos job pretty well and should probably be removed from the perk altogether if you want the SS to be (a lot) less good at dealing with trash but that's besides the point cause people now seem to think dualies somehow are the main problem here and singles have always been the inferior choice.
I guess I wasn't clear enough earlier that this was what puzzled me and not the nerf itself.

It's pretty bizarre that picking up a second gun isn't only a subjective "downgrade" but a literal one too.
Might as well go the whole way and remove pistols altogether then (or keep all pistols) cause I don't see it working as a "happy medium".

[EonSeig]

I never considered DHC to be the primary problem. It was always 9mm.

[9_6]

Originally Posted by EonSeig

I never considered DHC to be the primary problem. It was always 9mm.

It's probably both, the HC and the 9mm.
Can't spam any of the other guns. M14 got that firerate reduction after all.

[Undedd Jester]

Originally Posted by EonSeig

Not really. It just requires a but more thought now than putting 2 double shots into a Scrake's head. Just spam a bit of AA12 into the face and then blast him with Hunty and it's one dead Scrake. Supports were never supposed to be Scrake counters, though, and they cause you to waste a lot of ammo.

They are alot more likely to take a chunk out of you though

[Zonker]

Originally Posted by Evilsod

The main problem with the change is that the weights of the single Handcannon (and Dual 9mm).

Right now theres no point in taking a single Handcannon. Its always a backup weapon, either you take it with an Xbow, the M14 or the LAR, or other perks take it to supplement whatever they're using if they can't spare weight for a LAR, single will only be chosen because of money issues. The only reason to take it out is to spam it at something which means the DHC will always be better and requires very little aiming purely because they weigh exactly the same. Surely it must be possible to make each Handcannon weigh 2? Hell even 3 and 1 would be better than 4 and 0. And to make the Dual 9mm weigh 1 or 2 because its too heavy to ever be worth taking.

Well, I usually use a single handcannon as my main weapon during the first waves with a sharpshooter, especially if I buy the crossbow. Most of the time I only buy a second one for the first FP wave or so, so I can "spam" bullets if I really have to. I don't mind the non-changing weight and one has to think about what would be changed or won for sharpshooter or non-ss loadouts by reducing the single's weight to 2: most of the time, two free blocks able to be filled with a machete and / or pipes (like crossbow + HC, for example). It would also allow demos to carry M32 + M79 + pipes + HC. Is this really wanted?

On the other hand, I also agree that the bodyshot damage reduction is the wrong way to go, especially because I'm used to use single and dual handcannons more or less equally. It's strange when one weapon suddenly decreases its damage per bullet just by buying a second one and I'd guess it would irritate a lot of players, especially new ones.

I think it's rather hard to find a way to make the dual handcannons a less-"spammable" weapon for the sharpshooter. A weight reduction for the single one wouldn't change anything for the use of the duals (and could have unwanted side-effects like described above). Increasing the spread of duals would probably even increase its spam use, as it would be a lot more reliable to fire quickly at short range instead of trying to aim on longer distances.

So the only reasonable changes I see are decreasing or removing the sharpshooter's recoil reduction and / or reload speed bonus with dual pistols. This would also reflect that he shouldn't be used to handle two pistols at the same time.