Killing Floor 1015 Balanc Patch 5

[9_6]

Originally Posted by EonSeig

Do not even get me started on how Dual HC essentially allowed the Sharpshooter to carry 2 M14's at the same time.

Wow. Shut up.

[avp2501]

Originally Posted by EonSeig

Hopefully we'll actually have people playing the patch this time. the last round was pretty much dead the whole week.

I got alot of good rounds in online. I'm usually on the beta at 10pm uk time most nights

EDIT: in patch 4 I was a support using the LAW and was killed, when I picked the LAW up on the next wave it had full ammo even though I had used around 5 shots with it.

[Deafmute]

Originally Posted by 9_6

Wow. Shut up.

You really are always a douche aren't you.

There is nothing wrong with removing bodyshot damage from the dual HCs. They were unbalanced. Deal with it.

[҈Oc†ө]

Originally Posted by avp2501

I got alot of good rounds in online. I'm usually on the beta at 10pm uk time most nights

me too

but i agree that most of time servers are empty, so please guys, play a bit more

[9_6]

Originally Posted by Deafmute

You really are always a douche aren't you.

There is nothing wrong with removing bodyshot damage from the dual HCs. They were unbalanced. Deal with it.

Yeah, we totally need a discussion a la "berserker is OP" again, don't we.
That was so much fun and made so much sense.

I care not about that nerf, I care about people who spout crap like that though.
Maybe a bit too much.

[Deafmute]

Originally Posted by 9_6

Yeah, we totally need a discussion a la "berserker is OP" again, don't we.
That was so much fun and made so much sense.

I care not about that nerf, I care about people who spout crap like that though.
Maybe a bit too much.

...Er, right.

[EonSeig]

Originally Posted by 9_6

Wow. Shut up.

I very rarely invoke this stupid phrase but, umadbro?

If we focus only on headshots, M14 > DHC, in both damage and accuracy. But when it comes to "Sharpmandos", (wow, these hybrid perk nicks are getting weird) those Sharps trying to do the Commando's job by spamming bodyshots at crawlers, DHC is pretty much the same as M14. In that sense, DHC = more M14 ammo.

Honestly, I wasn't even expecting them to nerf DHC at this point, and it didn't even cross my mind that it needed to be nerfed at all. I didn't consider it very important. 9mm was always the bigger concern to me.

Forum trolling aside, I'm wondering why the Chainsaw is being left out of the melee randomness removal.

[scary ghost]

Originally Posted by EonSeig

I very rarely invoke this stupid phrase but, umadbro?

Forum trolling aside, I'm wondering why the Chainsaw is being left out of the melee randomness removal.

Hrm, we'll have to wait until the files are updated before we can poke around in the source code. I'll guess that primary fire, at least, hits so many times that the randomness isn't really a factor. If the randomness is also applied for alt fire, then I have no idea.

[Xienen]

Originally Posted by scary ghost

Hrm, we'll have to wait until the files are updated before we can poke around in the source code. I'll guess that primary fire, at least, hits so many times that the randomness isn't really a factor. If the randomness is also applied for alt fire, then I have no idea.

Ah, right, we can prolly take it away from alt fire, but I just didn't want to remove it for primary fire.

EDIT: Upon further inspection, that is the way it's working already. Only primary fire has a random factor in it =)

[҈Oc†ө]

Will there be beta servers for all difficulties from normal and up?

Will the non-application of beta chages to low dif levels be implemented in this patch?

[9_6]

Originally Posted by EonSeig

If we focus only on headshots, M14 > DHC, in both damage and accuracy. But when it comes to "Sharpmandos", (wow, these hybrid perk nicks are getting weird) those Sharps trying to do the Commando's job by spamming bodyshots at crawlers, DHC is pretty much the same as M14. In that sense, DHC = more M14 ammo.

Everything you can freaking shoot with is "more M14 ammo" by that "logic".
That bullpup you picked up? "More M14 ammo". The 9mm is "more M14 ammo". The LAR is "more M14 ammo". Oh wait.

Dual HCs:

-have less ammo, you can "spam" only ~5 times
-are impossible to aim with
-have a long reload
-have weaker headshots

Now how on earth you can come to the conclusion that this would be "OP" is beyond me but the practice of pointing at random things and shrieking "OP" seems just as common as the mindset "if it got nerfed, it was OP".

And yes, this goes entirely nowhere and is just about principles.
"Then why are you arguing about this" you may or may not be asking yourself right now.
Well perhaps the LAW would just have 5 shots now because of crap like that.
All of this does have an impact on what gets changed.
We all have the hands on the steering wheel of this operation here, pulling it in random directions will result in a wreck.

[Merin Redplate]

Dual HC's really aren't that hard to coin headshots with.
Just draw an imaginary line between the two guns and left click.
Don't have a horse next time.

[Zeraan]

Originally Posted by Yoshiro

They will stay suicidal. Hell on Earth will be treated as a whole new difficulty level (since it is).

I'm a little confused now. You said suicidal is a new difficulty that lies between Hard and Hell on Earth, but then you say that Hell on Earth will be treated as a new difficulty level.

Is the new suicidal about the same difficulty as the old suicidal with Hell on Earth being more difficult, or is suicidal is easier now with Hell on Earth having the same difficulty as the old suicidal?

[Undedd Jester]

Originally Posted by 9_6

Everything you can freaking shoot with is "more M14 ammo" by that "logic".
That bullpup you picked up? "More M14 ammo". The 9mm is "more M14 ammo". The LAR is "more M14 ammo". Oh wait.

Not really trying to get involved but I think he was eluding to the spammability of the Dual HC's coupled with the outright damage per bullet makes them resemble the M14...

Bullpup lacks the damage, LAR lacks the ROF, whereas the HC's have both... I'm just saying...

Anyway on topic, I think I'll be interested in how these HC's work with just a headshots bonus. We might find it doesn't impact how he plays too badly.

We may even find that it works well and may look at switching the Sharpshooters damage boost to headshots only (50% extra for all weapons, 60% extra for headshots with his class specific weapons) might actually turn the Sharpshooter into what we are all hoping he will be.

Thank God I got a good portion of this week off

[Olivier]

=o

Didnt knew there was a wave 5, i've been a little bit busy during the past 2 weeks but i should have plenty of time this week to test this new version.

[Old Ranger]

Originally Posted by Deafmute

How on earth do you figure that? Nerfs are necessary sometimes. There's nothing wrong with making the Deagles less spammable. Not sure why SS has a bodyshot damage bonus anyway.

Changes sound sexy btw. When the patch is released will the Suicidal achievements become Hell on Earth achievements or will they stay with the new gimpy Suicidal?

Old R.
"So removed body shot is only nerf for this, no other nerfs?

Ok if that is so.

More nerfs -> one more fun gun less in game."

I kind of accept bodyshot remove from those guns. Any other nerf would surely be overnerfing, ruining. For those players who use dual HC as main weapon and not using M14 or Xbow with those.

SShooter seems to be nerfed a lot in this beta.

And still saying, that any perk should be able to stun any foe below Scrake with Axe secondary fire and Katana.

Game is gonna be much harder when this 1015 is released. And better. But i dont like overnerfing things.
-----------------------
I dont like nerf, then major nerf. And After major nerf, 1. nerf is forgotten, but useless add because of major nerf. And because of 1. nerf is useless, there are less gameplay in game because of it, and has nothing to do with balance. (this is hard to explain, english is not my mother language)

[EonSeig]

Dual HC is not overpowered, 9_6, and that is not even close to what I said when I first made note of the nerf. Sharpshooter's bodyshot bonus is, for every weapon he has. I've made it clear several times over the course of the beta that I want

• M14, LAR, and Xbow base damage cut in half.
• M14, LAR, and Xbow headshot mults doubled.
• Sharpshooter bodyshot bonus removed entirely.
• Sharpshooter headshot bonus increased to +140% for perk weapons only.

Now, if you would have paid attention to the point I made not 1 sentence before I said that the DHC was unbalanced for the Sharpshooter, you would have noticed that I wanted it moved to another perk. This goes back to the point that DHC is not OP, Sharpshooter is.

I'm done with this zero sum game now. Going any further is just blowing off a lot of hot air.

[Zeraan]

Originally Posted by Yoshiro

They will stay suicidal. Hell on Earth will be treated as a whole new difficulty level (since it is).

I tried posting, but I guess the forum ate my last post.

I'm a bit confused about this. Does this mean suicidal is at the same difficulty level as before (FP have same HP, and so forth), and Hell on Earth is harder? Or is suicidal easier, with Hell on Earth at the same level as the old suicidal?

Thanks.

[Uk1t4k3]

Originally Posted by Yoshiro

Change Log:

Difficulty:
Added a new difficulty (this is the current KF Suicidal version you are already playing), called Hell on Earth.

Suicidal is now a new difficulty between Hard and Hell on Earth with the difficulty modifier reduced to 5 from 7. All beta changes apply to difficulties 5 and up.

Berserker:
Moved Katana back to slot 1
Removed randomness from Melee weapon strikes except on chainsaw

Firebug:
Moved Mac10 to slot 3

Demolitions:
Moved M32 to slot 4
Added up to a 30% discount on LAW, LAW rockets, and Grenades.
Reduced LAW rocket amount to 10 for non Demolitions
Increased LAW rocket amount to 20 for a lvl 6 Demolitions

Sharpshooter:
Changed Fleshpound anti head shot multiplier to .35 (between the previous rounds .3 and .4)
Lowered the M14 base damage by 6
Fixed Winchester firing from stopping fall damage from taking place(thanks to Benjamin on this one)
Reduced Dual Hand Cannon effectiveness for Sharpshooters. Removed body shot bonus

1. Wow 20 rockets for LAW....
2. Damn fixing that stopping fall damage bug already?
3. Hmm i guess dual HC could be a little too effective for clearing weaker zeds but i guess it's better to aim with one handcannon for headshot.

[Salad Snake]

Originally Posted by 9_6

Everything you can freaking shoot with is "more M14 ammo" by that "logic".
That bullpup you picked up? "More M14 ammo". The 9mm is "more M14 ammo". The LAR is "more M14 ammo". Oh wait.

Dual HCs:

-have less ammo, you can "spam" only ~5 times
-are impossible to aim with
-have a long reload
-have weaker headshots

Now how on earth you can come to the conclusion that this would be "OP" is beyond me but the practice of pointing at random things and shrieking "OP" seems just as common as the mindset "if it got nerfed, it was OP".

And yes, this goes entirely nowhere and is just about principles.
"Then why are you arguing about this" you may or may not be asking yourself right now.
Well perhaps the LAW would just have 5 shots now because of crap like that.
All of this does have an impact on what gets changed.
We all have the hands on the steering wheel of this operation here, pulling it in random directions will result in a wreck.

Just wanted to say that "impossible to aim with" is completely subjective, just like saying the Scar is simpler to aim then the AK. One could conceivably have no problem aiming either weapon, and thus they are just as accurate as their "easier to aim" counterparts.

I've never found either weapon hard to aim, for dualies just trace a mental line from the absolute top of each gun's barrel (for DHC the top of the front sight, not where you think the bullet would come out), and where the lines intersect is where your bullets will go. The only thing you need to worry about is that dualies have more firing spread, but only after the first couple shots so if you don't fire rapidly then can still be shot quite accurately.



Also, imho the dualies were too reliable as a backup for an overwhelmed Sharp, regardless of aim. Bodyshot bonus was the reason for this. I can see the comparison to M14, since both weapons shoot high-damage bullets rapidly, as opposed to your example of Bullpup, which like all the AR's fires low-damage bullets rapidly, the LAR, which fires high-damage bullets slowly, and 9mm, which fires high-damage-only-on-headshot bullets rapidly(though I think 9mm is the bigger problem this is a good start).

Yes, DHC has low ammo, but it allows you a very good chance to get out of being overwhelmed 5 times. Not only is the Sharpshoot kinda not meant to be able to fight that effectively at close ranges, but if you're getting overwhelmed more then 5 times a wave, where is your team? They should be dealing with the stuff closer to you while you do your marksman thing. The DHC's are part of what made mistakes and lack of awareness more forgiving for Sharpshooter then other perks.