Piracy, DRM and HoS

[ButchCassidy]

Some interesting arguments but to suggest that the PC pirating is the reason why the industry is moving to console based games is simply not true..

Read this article and this report and you'll see why the PC maybe a bad boy but its not the baddest...And thats not to excuse piracy in anyway at all.

In page 6 of this very good tweakguides article on piracy we have these paragraphs...

However PC game piracy is by no means the only reason why developers are moving to consoles. There are other benefits for developers, which several of them have spoken about. For example John Carmack of id explains that the PC has various drawbacks compared to consoles:

While a high-end gaming PC is many times more powerful than current generation consoles and you could in theory do significantly greater things on it, the downsides of the platform are having to support multiple generations of different hardware [and] driver interface layers.
PCs by their vary nature are a widely diverse collection of hardware and software, whereas consoles are a fixed hardware platform. This makes development, testing and tech support much easier for consoles. But before anyone suddenly jumps to their feet and exclaims "Aha! So that's the reason why they're all moving to consoles!", consider the fact that lower development costs have nothing to do with differential PC to console sales ratios. Console games may be cheaper to develop than PC games, but they're priced higher then PC games and they sell in far higher numbers - something which logically shouldn't be occurring given the similar install bases.
Furthermore the benefits of console development have been known for at least ten years now, why would there be a sudden mass exodus of major PC game developers to consoles within the past year or two?
Why for example would Crytek develop a PC exclusive like Crysis in 2007, and then on the basis of faltering sales, announce a sudden switch to console development in 2008, then expend a great deal of time and money backporting their existing CryEngine 2 to console?
If they're lying and just using poor sales as an excuse to cover up their true motives, wouldn't it make sense for them to have already developed CryEngine 2 with consoles in mind to begin with, or released Crysis as a multiplatform game, if their real motives were always to move to console development?

So no, piracy isn't solely to blame for developers moving to consoles, there are other benefits for developers in doing so. But those benefits have been around for many years, and don't explain the large difference in sales ratios. Piracy is the only logical variable which seems to be playing the most significant part in the equation, by creating a large gap between the number of PC games sold as opposed to console games sold.
As John Carmack says quite openly: "developing games costs tens of millions of dollars now and the focus just has to be on the consoles where you've got the chance to move more millions of units there."
It seems that those 'millions of additional units' on the console are in large part due to the fact that although PC gamers may be playing as many games as their console counterparts, they're not necessarily paying for as many games.

So on the one hand we have an industry claiming that piracy is the reason the PC is being negelected, even though the single most pirated platform is the Playstation and yet we have them saying "we can charge more for the same product on a console and its cheaper to make" and yet we have been repeatedly told that piracy is the only issue for not supporting the PC user?
I suspect its a bit of both but more about the profit margin if truth be known.

In support of the PC we have this argument...http://ctrlclick.com/2010/05/piracy-...ing-pc-gaming/ and I agree with the conclusion which states "pirates go to whatever has the largest market share" So if the games industry pushes out the PC platform all they will do is push the pirates to another platform which will most likely be another console platform.

Ultimately there is no denying these figures http://www.npd.com/press/releases/press_100920.html which clearly shows a steady decline in purchased PC gaming figures.
But Many argure that this decline itself is a symptom of the lack of support that has been given to the PC platform.
Indeed the figures themselves are being driven by the gaming industry due to an effort to force gamers away from PC games in general...Again the console model is far more profitable than the PC.

But there is light at the end of the tunnel if this article is to be believed..http://www.totalpcgaming.com/latest-...ure-of-gaming/

In closing I would say that the gaming industry as a whole needs to do far more itself to remedy piracy other than blame it all on a single platform because all they are doing is boxing themselves into a corner rather than tackle the issue head on.
The PC is the mother of all gaming and considering it's userbase, versatility and power it would be nothing short of foolhardy for the gaming industry to turn its back on her.

[Welshie]

Butch hit the nail right on the head with the rise of the console...but I will add that You also have to factor in the price war as well....Average console = Aus$500, Medium end PC = well You won't get much change out of Aus$1000, factor in the ease of consoles (for both games developers and users alike) and You can get an idea of why alot of the (So-called) big software houses choose consoles.
Also DarknRahl, You notice in Oz that we pay $15-$20 bucks more for console games, simply because of the royalities payed to M$ and $ony....which is then passed on to Us the consumer....So Yes, while Piracy is a problem....It's not just the PC market that is the victim ( just the excuse that Acti-No-vision, EatAnything and the Scum of the PC market UbiSoftKnobs use as an excuse to port everything to PC or ignore PC altogether).
As for the STEAM pricing thing....well again blame Act-No-Vision and Aussie retailers for that
http://www.kotaku.com.au/2007/11/cal...les_overnight/

So had nothing to do with STEAM

Rise of Flight DRM....I was involved with this Sim from day 1 and the Always Online DRM never worked (either at the gamers end or at Neoqb end)......proof, they now have (after alot of complaints) an Off line Mode....thankfully (like TWI) Neoqb and 777 studios listened to their customer feedbacks and corrected the situation (I even got an E-mail asking why I wasn't buying the additional aircraft and like many others replied "D...R...M." they changed this and I'm now a proud owner of all said Crates (WWI term for Aircraft).
I'll support any and all companies that treat Me with respect as a paying customer....the rest can go and get F@&ked

And that's why I have all (and enjoy) the games TWI have put out (as well as DLC (paid or otherwise and the same with (now) 777studios).

[Grobut]

Aside from what Butch posted, another part of the puzzle is Microsoft, who have been working overtime to make the Xbox and 360 the dominant platform since before it's first release, showering Developers with promises and gifts of money if they made the Xbox their primary platform, buying exclusive deals, promoting the hell out of it, but doing the exact opposite to the PC, where we got that wonderfull turd called "Games For Windows Live" from them instead.

And needless to say, Sony has also done their fair share of buying "primary platform" status and exclusivity deals to prop up their PS2 and 3 Consoles, and well, Nintendo is just Nintendo as allways.


But nobody's buying exclusivity deals for the PC, the platform doesen't really have a benefactor like the Consoles do (Microsoft would perhabs be the clousest thing, since Windows and gaming go hand in hand, but they would much rather sell us Xbox'es).

[toidi]

Ubisoft DRM in action:
http://www.maximumpc.com/article/new..._mere_24_hours

Or not so as the case may be.

Personally I refuse to purchase any game that includes rootkits, or indeed requires any type of persistent internet connection in order to play the game.

DRM to me is just a pain in the arse at best, which is why I use steam for most of my gaming purchases these days (direct2drive are sometimes cheaper though).

As for the argument that consoles are not subject to the levels of piracy that the pc suffers, I beg to differ. It only takes an hour or so for even an average person to mod their dvd frimware on a 360 to play copy games. Sony has just had to release a patch for the ps3 which stops people playing backups through a usb dongle (which could be executed using an android phone). Finally soft modding or hard modding a wii has been around for over two years.

Piracy is there in all shapes and forms , from pc to console. Ironically we will be treated to the next instalment of COD in the next few days. Expect the microsoft ban hammer to fall on another 500k modded consoles, (just like last year) just in time for the christmas market

References and links available on request..

[DarknRahl]

Jolly good post Butch.

I also agree with Grobut about how companies like Microsoft pay large sums to developers to exclude sections of the gaming community. It is the one beef I have with nvidia as well, they pay developers to use physx instead of open source tools which excludes all gamers using ATI. Not only does this screw half the gaming community it also means that an open source physics model isn't pursued as vigorously which means slower advancement of such awesome features. Added to which physx itself is a total failure as it has such a complete and utter detrimental effect on performance.

I think in large part the lack of support for PC is laziness, all the evidence is there, greater money to be made from consoles, only one or two hardware setups need to be programmed for etc.

On the subject of windows live I couldn't agree more with the negative opinions about it. I can't stand invasive rubbish like that, especially when they disallow basic features like saving the game unless you are online and other such nonsense. About the only positive is it means a bit more competition for steam but at the moment there is no decision between the two as windows live is so awful.

[Colt .45 killer]

I love the idea of putting it in terms of quality of service as gabe newell did. I've always thought of it in some form or another close to that, but he put it quite nicely. I just bought the ball and while I havent been too pleased with it i dont give a rats ***, because some $$ went to TWI in the process and I've got more then a 50$ games worth of fun from KF....


That being said I read most of the OP article, and if the stats about world of goo having a 90% piracy rate is true, i really feel sorry for those devs....

[Taisenki]

I don't think this game will have to worry about Piracy...

People will always pirate...People will always buy games to play them multiplayer with lots of people.

-

That said...There was a lecture a while back about piracy and his survey said the main reason for piracy was dissatisfaction for a product. (IE, they don't want to support that kind of product).

But its not like buying a chocolate bar. Where you absolutely hate the taste of the chocolate so you don't eat it. Any game has a certain amount of fun. Its never "Instantly annoying". It requires some time to play before you get bored and measuring the "amount of fun" is impossible. So thats why they still get pirated.

[Helmut_AUT]

First post ever for me since the old RO days, hi all those I recognize and also the others of course.

Steam has given me bad headaches with original RO. I was the guy who figured out - with some help - how to extract the badly working .gcf file system and make the game run offline even on Linux. I simple was fed up with Steam not starting, getting the file driver error and all that crap, even on Windows. So I left Steam ever since then.

I understand the need for piracy prevention, but for example I recently bought Just Cause 2 (full price) only after learning there was a no-steam workaround. Initially I installed Steam for JC2 (first time since RO), and the game failed to activate due to server maintainance for an entire day.

So, even though ROHOS looks utterly amazing, I'll only buy it if I can play the offline part without Steam running. I have never pirated any game in my life, but ironically enough the availability of a steam-free "pirate version" will decide if I buy or not.

[Hausfeld]

http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/7686/piracyi.jpg

[Floyd]

Your car gets cloned but you still have your car. Lets look a little closer:

Your car manufacturer sees no income from the clone. Its line workers don't get paid.
The independant parts suppliers (and their workers) don't get paid.
The car dealer and its employees don't get paid.
Your local, state and federal government don't collect payroll and sales taxes from any of the above.

Eventually your car dealer can't make a reasonable profit. It closes. You can't buy the same brand car.....

Yes... Its a win/win for everyone.

[Snuffeldjuret]

Which they don't.

Not even close.

[Floyd]

Originally Posted by Alexei

That only works if you assume that all "pirates" would buy the product if they cannot "pirate".

Is that in response to my post? If so, I don't understand what you're saying.

[Welshie]

I think the gist of what Alexei is saying is that The "pirate" is the Person who buys a legimate copy of a game, to then crack the DRM before uploading it to Bittorrent sites for everyone else to download, or makes illegal copies to sell to others.
So in a strange twist of Logic the pirate actually contribes to the cost of the game.

[Flogger23m]

Whatever RO1 had was good enough.

I won't get a game that has limited activations ect.

[jalex3]

Originally Posted by Flogger23m

I won't get a game that has limited activations ect.

this, I install my OS avery 5 months and if a game only lets me activate it 3 times i lose out...

[Grobut]

Originally Posted by Floyd

Is that in response to my post? If so, I don't understand what you're saying.

He saying "not every pirate download is a lost sale", which is very true.

[Harb]

Back in the late 80s and early 90s piracy was just as bad as it is now or even worse. On the Amiga I didn't have one friend who actually bought a game for the entirety of the Amiga's lifespan.

The games were a reasonable price at the time around £10-£20. The problem was it was far to easy to copy a game using X-Copy or saving the disk onto the HD. The only real copy protection would be questions from the manual, it would ask you what the 3rd word on the 5th paragraph on the 10th page was. The best example of this was the Dial-A-Pirate Code Wheel for Secret of Monkey Island. People ended up making a hand drawn copy or photo-copying the manual.

They haven't figured out a way to stop piracy in over 20 years. They need to find a new approach.

[Floyd]

Originally Posted by Alexei

This is what i meant.

I see.

My post was meant to be in response to the pic in Hausfeld's post. Which, in a nutshell, was saying that piracy was equivalent to just making an extra copy of your game and that was OK as there were no consequenses. I would have thought my post was not to be taken literally (as his wasn't). I was merely using a similar analogy to illustrate otherwise. Sometimes I wonder about these forums...

[Das Bose]

Originally Posted by ||DS13||Maj.Harvey

Back in the late 80s and early 90s piracy was just as bad as it is now or even worse. On the Amiga I didn't have one friend who actually bought a game for the entirety of the Amiga's lifespan.

The games were a reasonable price at the time around £10-£20. The problem was it was far to easy to copy a game using X-Copy or saving the disk onto the HD. The only real copy protection would be questions from the manual, it would ask you what the 3rd word on the 5th paragraph on the 10th page was. The best example of this was the Dial-A-Pirate Code Wheel for Secret of Monkey Island. People ended up making a hand drawn copy or photo-copying the manual.

They haven't figured out a way to stop piracy in over 20 years. They need to find a new approach.

They ( media companies ) need to move on and be thankfull they are already filthy rich from ripping off artists and consumers alike over many, many years. Now the boot is on the other foot and they are crying foul, shame

[Colt .45 killer]

Perhaps Da Bose. But i get the idea of this post to be contemplating piracy in the context of RO:HOS. Personally I think a starting strategy is to tell everyone you know about how kickass this game will be.

Seconded with my new patented PKAGCP system. Personal Kick A$s Game Copy Protection system; its simple, as an avid supporter of Tripwire, it is your duty to kick the sorry *** of any pirate of a TWI product you know, one kick per megabit downloaded. Now thats DRM (D!ck Removal System).