The Berserker

[Yoshiro]

Berserker Goals: Make him a useful class

For the Berserker, the main complaint we heard, was that the Medic was a better Berserker. Is this still true? Do we have more work to do to bring the perk in line with the other classes? Did we go to far?



Also feel free to discuss the changes with your fellow testers in this thread.

[Compass]

Something needs to be done with the Machete. No one buys it anymore, ever. Class feels more balanced.

[9_6]

I can not answer this since, in my opinion, the berserker never really was "useless", just confused about what his role is.
He now has his role back because scrakes are dangerous again, not because he has better stats.

I have no idea who came up with "medics are better berserkers", this has simply been untrue, the faster attackspeed, double damage, global damage resistance and not being able to be grabbed by clots obviously made the berserker the superior berserker.

What really was absolutely useless was the chainsaw. The fact that you spawn with it at lv6 didn't help with hiding that.
It is more useful now but still nothing that makes me throw away my katana simply because it decapitates instantly while the saw takes its sweet time.

As for the damage resistance and speed changes, I welcome the speed buff that brings zerkers on par with medics.
I'm not sure what to think of the damage resistance though. By how much did it get raised?
It feels like I now have twice the health as normal.

[Fedorov]

Loving the berserker now.

The chainsaw is a great defensive weapon to effectively block attack routes now. (always in combination with a medic, but this is a team game after all)

I disagree with the poster above about taking too long to decapitate ZEDs, I think is fine the way it is now and for defensive purposes is superior to the Katana, specially to kill those annoying crawlers (must be crouched for that).

[Fel]

I still think the Katanna is too strong. Even wiith its slowed speed, you can still own with it.

In my opinion the Kat was too strong to begin with before the Beta

[Yomommassis]

I like the the changes made to the chainsaw and katana

but would it have been more wise to lower the medic rather than buffing the zerker?

i think the medic can tank way too much damage

[dogbadger]

Originally Posted by Compass

Something needs to be done with the Machete. No one buys it anymore, ever. Class feels more balanced.

reduce to 2 slots, while maybe 4-slotting the katana, which also could be far more expensive
not wildly unrealistic.

[scary ghost]

The damage resistance is +50% for level 6 zerker and +35% extra melee speed movement in the beta. Old numbers are +25% resistance and +25% extra melee speed.

Personally, I think these changes are overkill especially the doubled resistance. Like 9_6 said, zerker wasn't "useless" before, it's just everything a zerker excelled at could be done better by another perk like scrakes being xbowed, or a mob of clots being mowed down by 1 shotgun blast. I feel all these changes did was give the zerker a wider margin of error. It did not change any core game play mechanics that all of the sudden made the zerker "useful" now.

However, with the stronger scrake and fleshpound, the zerker now has something only he can safely dispose of. This is a much better way to make the zerker viable as he now has a niche to fill. Same with the uber grab of the clots. I was playing a 3-man game as zerker with Reina (medic) and Claymore (support) last night and they both left the Scrakes and FPs to me. And if I made a mistake while axing them, the double damage resistance allowed me to take 2-3 hits from an enraged fp and still come out no worse for wear.

I'll try to record a good MP match later. I didn't record anything until wave 7 in my game with Reina and Claymore, where I was looking away from the approaching fps wondering "what fps?" lol, and I played pretty horribly in the one with Fel, Entagler, and Tamer.

If a picture is worth a thousands words, how many words are videos worth?

Current style of zerker play (as of patch 1014)

YouTube - Killing Floor - Foundry Wave 10 + Patriarch on Suicidal With Berserkers

Solo Zerker play in beta patch 1015. Exact same play style as the above video:

YouTube - Killing Floor - 1015 Beta Patch - Wave 7 + Patriarch on Solo Suicidal as Berserker

A rough idea of how much punishment a zerker can now take from an fp. Nutter was curious as to how much damage he could deal with a full SCAR mag, or 2 in this case.

YouTube - Killing Foor - 1015 Beta Patch - Extra Berserker Damage Resistance

And I'll leave a funny video from the game with Reina and Claymore.

YouTube - Killing Floor - Do Not Follow Reina

[Fedorov]

If anything about the berserker should be nerfed, that would be the speed, as it encourages going solo and kiting, but the rest if fine, IMO its supposed to be able to take more damage

[nutterbutter]

I don't think the melee was ever useless. I always ranked him second in power to melee. Personally, I think melee has gotten much to powerful. Still soloing suicidal, after others have died, is possible. It takes a somewhat open map. Allowing clots to grab and hold players until the clots are dead is now an incredible advantage to melee. Unbelievable advantage with the magnetic quick grab.

Personally, I think TWI is going at the medic imbalance wrong. Rather than try to improve melee, they should be looking at decreasing medic's power.

Think of it this way. A perk has certain bonuses. A weapon does certain damage. A perked weapon has certain bonuses that increase that damage. However, if the perk's proper bonuses are more powerful or useful than another perk + perked weapons, why play the other perks?

Rather than build up other perks to compensate for an overpowered medic, just reduce the medic. I wouldn't mind seeing a -40% damage to any unperked weapons carried by the medic. Medic has the overpowering speed, adamantium armor, ungodly fast healing recharge, and incredibly healing ability, something has to be taken away.

After all, balancing isn't just adding weight to both sides until there is balance. Taking some weight away from one side is faster and easier.

[scary ghost]

Originally Posted by nutterbutter

I don't think the melee was ever useless. I always ranked him second in power to melee. Personally, I think melee has gotten much to powerful. Still soloing suicidal, after others have died, is possible. It takes a somewhat open map. Allowing clots to grab and hold players until the clots are dead is now an incredible advantage to melee. Unbelievable advantage with the magnetic quick grab.

Personally, I think TWI is going at the medic imbalance wrong. Rather than try to improve melee, they should be looking at decreasing medic's power.

Think of it this way. A perk has certain bonuses. A weapon does certain damage. A perked weapon has certain bonuses that increase that damage. However, if the perk's proper bonuses are more powerful or useful than another perk + perked weapons, why play the other perks?

Rather than build up other perks to compensate for an overpowered medic, just reduce the medic. I wouldn't mind seeing a -40% damage to any unperked weapons carried by the medic. Medic has the overpowering speed, adamantium armor, ungodly fast healing recharge, and incredibly healing ability, something has to be taken away.

After all, balancing isn't just adding weight to both sides until there is balance. Taking some weight away from one side is faster and easier.

Pretty much all this. The extra resistance and medic speed gives a zerker a larger margin of error and combined with the deadlier specimens, zerker is most likely going to be the new OP perk. The only saving grace at the moment is zerker still has a high learning curve but you put him in the hands of a skilled player and that zerker never dies.

I would like to see the resistance reduced either back to the 25% or a small buff to +30% and the speed bonus decreased a tad to +30%.

And nutter, use the last video in previous post when people ask you why you hate welding doors.

[nutterbutter]

Originally Posted by scary ghost

And nutter, use the last video in previous post when people ask you why you hate welding doors.

I've been there. I'm the last guy left. I've finally got all of the specimens behind me. I run into a room and it is a nice dead end with 2 welded doors. Backup and hope the grenades do more damage to the door than me.

[9_6]

Originally Posted by Fel

I still think the Katanna is too strong. Even wiith its slowed speed, you can still own with it.

You can own just as much with the ax.
In fact now I even think it has way more dps than the katana.

[scary ghost]

Originally Posted by 9_6

You can own just as much with the ax.
In fact now I even think it has way more dps than the katana.

Katana still has higher DPS I believe. The swing time is now 0.75, up from 0.6 for the katana. Damage is still the same, between 100-135 damage with 1.1x hs multiplier. Axe swing time is still 1.1 with damage between 125-175 and 1.25x hs multiplier.

Axe does between 25% and 35% more damage than the katana but the firerate variable is still 46% higher, even after the swing speed reduction.

If my math and understanding of the KFMeleeFire class is correct, you can do 15 axe swings (15*1.1 = 16.5s) in the same time it takes to do 22 katana swings (22*0.75 = 16.5s). That brings you to:

• Non head shots
  • 15 * [125,175] = [1875,2625] damage for axe
  • 22 * [100,135] = [2200,2970] damage for katana.
• Head shots
  • 15 * [156.25,218.75] = [2343,3281] damage for axe
  • 22 * [110,148.5] = [2420,3267] damage for katana.

[Evilsod]

I dunno, 25% always seemed too low in comparison to the Medic with his ridiculous armour. Its true that the Medics style lets you be more reckless but it also lets you be a considerably more formidable front liner in open levels.

I don't think it makes him a better solo'er though. At least not an OP one. With the Xbow majorily nerfed for Non SS he can't take on an FP at high level and the Zerdic will now struggle more with Scrakes for the same reason. And as 9_6 said... with the lower hit rate the Axe might actually have the better dps which will make up for the inability to carry an Xbow with it.

Edit: Nvm its dps isn't better but its not far behind and it has a damn hard hitting power attack that seems to be better at hitting specimen heads than the Katana.

[9_6]

Originally Posted by scary ghost

Mm, swing time is now 0.75, up from 0.6 for the katana. Damage is still the same, between 100-135 damage.

Axe swing time is still 1.1 with damage between 125-175.

So, if my math and understanding of the KFMeleeFire class is correct, you can do 15 axe swings (15*1.1 = 16.5s) in the same time it takes to do 22 katana swings (22*0.75 = 16.5s). That brings you to:

• 15 * [125,175] = [1875,2625] damage for axe
• 22 * [100,135] = [2200,2970] damage for katana.

The ax has a 1.2 headshot multiplier while the katana only has 1 doesn't it?
That would mean 2250,3150 for the axe if you always hit the head.

YouTube - Brutal Legend - Ending Decapitation (Fatality)

[HaTeMe]

The chainsaw is still much worse than the katana. This means, either make chainsaw better or decrease its cost. Or increase the cost of katana. Either way.

What comes to medics being better berserkers, that was all based on three facts:

1. Medic has a godly armor which means even tho he got grapped occasionally (which he wouldnt if played right) he could still cut his way through the crowd without dying. Also, he was able to engage fleshpounds without having to worry about getting hit.

2. Medic was a lot faster, making it easier to escape fleshpounds or kite them, in addition to withstanding the hits.

3. Katana was able to take down anything below scrake with one hit dispite the perk, and was able to stunlock scrakes. The berserker damage buffs were therefor next to nothing, except for body hits.

----> In the beta version Berserker is in fact much better in melee combat than the medic is which is a good thing. But, like Federov said, if something needs to be nerfed its the speed. He surely needed the damage resistance so thats perfect but anything else is extra. Oh and I love it how the stunlock is only his ability now like it should be.

EDIT: Oh and as a side note, would be nice if that damned machete would get that weight decrease to 1 or 2 slots instead of that insane 3 which katana has aswell :P

[scary ghost]

Originally Posted by Evilsod

I don't think it makes him a better solo'er though. At least not an OP one. With the Xbow majorily nerfed for Non SS he can't take on an FP at high level and the Zerdic will now struggle more with Scrakes for the same reason. And as 9_6 said... with the lower hit rate the Axe might actually have the better dps which will make up for the inability to carry an Xbow with it.

A skilled zerker never used an xbow to drop an fp, he/she would give the fp an axe/katana to the head. Thus these xbow nerfs mean nothing to him. The extra speed and resistance just make fps even more of a joke for a skilled zerker.

Originally Posted by 9_6

The ax has a 1.2 headshot multiplier while the katana only has 1 doesn't it?
That would mean 2250,3150 for the axe if you always hit the head.

YouTube - Brutal Legend - Ending Decapitation (Fatality)

Yes you are right. I forgot to account for head shots when making the post. After factoring in the 1.25x axe hs multiplier and 1.1x katana multiplier, the dps looks about the same now (see edited post). Also, lets not forget that alt axe fire has even higher dps than axe primary I believe.

[keldi]

My thought on berserker is that the DR should be about in the middle of the old DR, and the new DR, with a more gradual ramp-up between perk levels.

Another idea for a passive berserker benefit; increase the final HP they receive from getting needled by allies by a flat amount, like 5-10hp. The final number, so after the medic multiplier takes effect.

Since they're not just shrugging off damage via DR, and it would only apply to allies healing them (not self-heals), it would encourage berserkers to stick with the pack (and discourage kiting). It would also encourage non-medics to help the berserker out with healing when needed, and reduce the berserker's reliance on medics.

(I think it should happen after the medic bonus because 10 seems about right, but 17.5 extra healing for a L6 medic is too much.)

[dogbadger]

Originally Posted by HaTeMe

EDIT: Oh and as a side note, would be nice if that damned machete would get that weight decrease to 1 or 2 slots instead of that insane 3 which katana has aswell :P

yeah thats what i've been saying : machete to 2, kat to 4 - phaps with a price hike- although thats a secondary issue.

Sure i understand there are better weapons that cost more - but zerker kit is all pretty cheap. Because of this I think there should be a valid reason to select any weapon over others - Ie. a chainsaw that compensates for it's size by doing far more damage than a katana, or a machete that whilst not as powerfull, with it's smaller size can be carried when the kat cannot.
You'd then see it more maybe not in zerka hands but other perks as a melee backup.