• Please make sure you are familiar with the forum rules. You can find them here: https://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/index.php?threads/forum-rules.2334636/

Increasing the overall difficulty of KF

Nenjin

Grizzled Veteran
Apr 30, 2009
3,879
480
Sub-Level 12
There was a time when I couldn't imagine KF being any more difficult. Today, I savor the truly challenging moments because they feel so rare, right up until someone dies.

This isn't a "waaaahhhh Imma quit soon" thread. I honestly want to see the game shift its mindset a little bit so it remains as fun as when I first started playing it.

Namely, when staying alive was still a struggle for the whole match, as opposed to the last 1 or 2 waves.

With the power of the current weapons, the power of the current perk levels and the prospect of more of those things to come...I think it's time the whole game got moved up an order of difficulty.

I.e.
-Less cash per kill/round, all difficulties
-Item rarity increased, all difficulties
-Specimen HP increased, all difficulties
-Specimen damage increased, all difficulties
-Spawn frequency increased, all difficulties
-Wave length increased, all difficulties
-Make friendly fire a lot more visible (it's there, but most players get hooked on no friendly fire because it's how they learned the game.)

Name whatever percentage you want, scale it however you want, but the overall challenge has to go up.

Some will of course say "too much." I'd argue those people just haven't played enough KF though.

The longer I play, the less value KF has for me as a "casual co-op" shooter. The chatter in our games has gone through the roof because we don't have to pay that much attention anymore.

My performance in OTHER FPS has actually gotten better because I spend so much time choosing my shots and killing with finesse in KF (along with all the other things it teaches you.)

Read as: standing utterly still and lining up headshots while feeling totally calm and unpressured. Or practicing my jump shots.

I think KF needs to start taking a hardcore mentality, so people will have bottomless challenge to throw themselves at.

We still wipe, and there is still a challenge, it's just become inconsistent for the large part of the game. It's 10 to 15 minutes of mild amusement or boredom punctuated by 45 seconds to a minute of intense action. The pace for veteran players has gone totally out of whack.

T3 weapons should feel like a reward, even for a Rank 6, rather than the point at which you can "stop caring about money."

It shouldn't take multiple FPs and skrakes to make an experienced group nervous. It should take one.

The Patriarch has about a dozen threads on him already.

Players should be too busy staying alive to worry about their kill count.

For the newbies, this might be painful, but then finally, maybe, Rank 0s will start playing in appropriate difficulty levels. The raw difficulty of KF has never been an issue for newbies, it's learning the play style to stay alive that takes time. So they can stomach a difficulty increase.

Anyways, to TWI, me and my group will take whatever you can throw at us. Give us all the difficulty your twisted minds can cook up. I'll still play KF regardless...but we'd still be playing 8 hours a week if there wasn't so much zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz to get to the exciting parts.
 
Last edited:
That'd be easier, but a higher difficulty is just a bandaid to the other balances problems in the game. Maybe those will be addressed, but as long as they are revisiting what they thought was the appropriate game balance....they might as well take a hard look at what kind of game KF has become for veterans, and some newbies alike.

I'd like the game to present itself as offering a more hardcore challenge from the get-go, rather than this gentle progression between difficulties. Beginner can be beginner, but starting at normal I think the team should be wiping more often than not, because the game is already hard at that level...and not because people don't know what they're doing.

Besides, tweaking the default values would not be that labor intensive.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
With the introduction of the new weapons, perk, perk caps, and fixed hitboxes (nothing against that, actually glad that if I aim at a head I will get a head shot) The difficulties are kind of blurred together.

There isn't too much difference between beginner to normal, normal to hard, and hard to suicidal. The only real difference is the money.

So I agree with you in this idea. I like what you mentioned about how you want each difficulty to have a big difference from one another in order to force people to pick the correct difficulty. I've seen a lot of level 3s and 2s join suicidal just to be carried by a few level 6s easily throughout the game. I don't mind it every now and then (people are free to be curious as to see what the hardest difficulty feels like) but having a single low level person on suicidal should really really handicap the team.

I guess another way to remedy the low levels entering higher difficulties, is to make the higher difficulties an achievement. Have to complete all maps on beginner and have all perks up to level 3 to unlock normal. Complete all maps on normal and have all perks level 4 to unlock hard. Complete all maps on hard and get all perks to level 5 to unlock suicidal. Something to that effect.

Before level up patch, I felt that there was more of a difference in the levels of difficulty. I used to only play hard, and only once in awhile play suicidal. Now I only play suicidal, even if I'm just messing around.

Like you said, it might stink to all the new players, but I think in the long run, it will force people to play better, make better decisions, be more of a team player, and ultimately play the game a whole lot longer.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
It's just the thing called 'learning' - you get better with things, the more you do them.

NOT all players are on your position on the learning curve. Making the game harder for someone who barely can survive first waves on normal is not a good idea.

You want more of a challenge? Reset your perks and play on suicidal. Or play on 24 player hard servers. 800+ zombies per wave and fleshpounds with 18k health still make experienced players a bit nervous there.
 
Upvote 0
It's just the thing called 'learning' - you get better with things, the more you do them.
The curve ended for me months ago when I started playing on hard. This goes beyond learning. This is "what KF's actual balance is like once you eliminate perks and difficulties as considerations."

Or play on 24 player hard servers. 800+ zombies per wave and fleshpounds with 18k health still make experienced players a bit nervous there.
Been there, done that. And yeah, it's fun (a FP that takes 10 people to kill is pretty epic), but it's not whitelisted, and the specimen cap results in a lot of goofiness. Not to mention games taking 45 minutes.

And I don't worry too much about the newbies. Everyone has to be one, everyone makes the choice whether they want to rise to the challenge, or go home. That wouldn't change much.

Resetting my perks, I'll just end up at the same place...experienced, perked and not feeling challenged. I've watched Rank 0s gain two ranks in one suicidal game with us. That won't last long.

Again, that's another bandaid. A game's answer to its balance issues shouldn't be to force yourself to restart.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
There was a time when I couldn't imagine KF being any more difficult.
...Aren't you one of those people who used to say that "Hard" was actually hard with a team full of level 5s, and complain that Suicidal was "impossible"? Sorry, but that was never the case.
Today, I savor the truly challenging moments because they feel so rare, right up until someone dies.
I would too, if not for the fact that they only ever happen as a consequence of someone else's incompetence. In other words, whenever there is difficulty, it's for reasons that are more frustrating than anything else. If only the game was hard enough to keep bads out of the servers that I frequent...

This isn't a "waaaahhhh Imma quit soon" thread. I honestly want to see the game shift its mindset a little bit so it remains as fun as when I first started playing it.

Namely, when staying alive was still a struggle for the whole match, as opposed to the last 1 or 2 waves.
I never felt that it was, except when I was new. I'd quite like it to be that way, though.

With the power of the current weapons, the power of the current perk levels and the prospect of more of those things to come...I think it's time the whole game got moved up an order of difficulty.
Yes.

I.e.
-Less cash per kill/round, all difficulties
I was planning to suggest that myself. Definitely yes.

-Item rarity increased, all difficulties
Hmm? Items almost never spawn on Suicidal as it is. There's a ridiculous excess of them on lower difficulties, though.
-Specimen HP increased, all difficulties
-Specimen damage increased, all difficulties
With a few exceptions, I don't think that simply increasing specimens' raw stats is the way to go. I'm thinking more along the lines of changes that demand greater co-operation and situational awareness from the players. Also, simple changes like those would further fortify the "mandatory hard counter" phenomenon that the game already has, which seems to me to be detrimental to the quest for balance. More on that in my Suggestions Compendium, if I ever actually get around to writing it.
-Spawn frequency increased, all difficulties
-Wave length increased, all difficulties
Yes and yes; also a semi-dynamic active specimen cap as I've suggested in another thread. I can't be bothered digging up the link right at the moment, but I can on request.
-Make friendly fire a lot more visible (it's there, but most players get hooked on no friendly fire because it's how they learned the game.)
Unfortunately, that's beyond the developers' power. It's up to the servers to set their own friendly fire settings, and there's nothing that anyone other than their respective communities can really do about it. Sadly, there are no servers at all in Australia that have friendly fire enabled, but I generally try to play as though it were, just so that I wouldn't make an arse of myself on one if it appeared.

Name whatever percentage you want, scale it however you want, but the overall challenge has to go up.
True, but it'll take a bit of lateral thinking to get the desired effect.

Some will of course say "too much." I'd argue those people just haven't played enough KF though.
Well, yes. Surely it's a given that the game shouldn't be balanced around bad players.

I think KF needs to start taking a hardcore mentality, so people will have bottomless challenge to throw themselves at.
A bottomless pit into which to throw bad maps would help too.

T3 weapons should feel like a reward, even for a Rank 6, rather than the point at which you can "stop caring about money."
True. The question is, though, of how that would be accomplished. Perhaps by reducing perk discounts?

It shouldn't take multiple FPs and skrakes to make an experienced group nervous. It should take one.
I see this more as a matter of "target management" than anything else. A well-coordinated team wouldn't get nervous, but it should definitely have its hands full.

The Patriarch has about a dozen threads on him already.

Players should be too busy staying alive to worry about their kill count.
True.

For the newbies, this might be painful, but then finally, maybe, Rank 0s will start playing in appropriate difficulty levels. The raw difficulty of KF has never been an issue for newbies, it's learning the play style to stay alive that takes time. So they can stomach a difficulty increase.
I doubt they'd be hit too hard, as long as there was some appropriate scaling in place. Who knows - Beginner might actually grow a purpose.
 
Upvote 0
...Aren't you one of those people who used to say that "Hard" was actually hard with a team full of level 5s, and complain that Suicidal was "impossible"? Sorry, but that was never the case.

I didn't complain about suicidal because I wasn't playing it then. And yeah, I did feel challenged on hard for a good while there when I started. But I accepted less of a challenge to get my perks up. Now that I don't care about perks, I'm finally trying to max out difficulty...and just not finding it difficult enough. The Levelup patch also hit right around when I was starting to feel underwhelmed on hard. Which just made things worse.

Unfortunately, that's beyond the developers' power. It's up to the servers to set their own friendly fire settings, and there's nothing that anyone other than their respective communities can really do about it. Sadly, there are no servers at all in Australia that have friendly fire enabled, but I generally try to play as though it were, just so that I wouldn't make an arse of myself on one if it appeared.

A good start would be having a Friendly Fire server filter along with the others. A draconian step would be making the default server settings and solo game settings friendly fire. An insane step would be making FF a server whitelist requirement.
 
Upvote 0
You don't need a whole slew of changes to make KF the intense experience you want. What you want is a whitelisted mutator that cranks specimen move speed way up.

The reason it's boring is that you have plenty of time to putz around while zeds walk up to your position under a hail of bullets, and when they finally do get to you, most are easily outrun regardless of perk. I guarantee that if the slow move speeds of all zeds was jacked way up, the game would seem pretty wicked intense on any difficulty.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
As I see it, there are two basic things that determine the difficulty of a round of killing floor: the ability of the player to kill the specimens and the ability of the specimens to kill the player.

The current difficulties in killing floor increases the damage specimens do at higher difficulty levels. This is fine. The problem lies with the fact that specimens don't become harder to kill at higher difficulty levels. The clot, the stalker, the gorefast, the crawler, and the bloat can all be killed in one shot (decapitation) at any difficulty and with the 9mm you are guaranteed to spawn with. The other tougher enemies are still easily killed by aiming at the head for a decapitation.

Decapitation pretty much marginalizes all specimens to the point where they pose absolutely no threat to the player unless he/she forgets to shoot them in his/her boredom. With that in mind no matter how fast specimens move or how much damage they deal or how much hp you give their bodies you don't get rid of the underlying fact that they will be really easy to kill. My advice: remove decapitations or give 'em all sturdy head.

just my NT$0.02
 
Upvote 0
I like the idea, but I think this could rather be put into a new difficulty.

I'm a good player, decent, and yet I play with Level 3/4 Perks on Normal because OTHER people can't play for feces sometimes.

Random off-topic example: Yesterday I was in Offices, just y'know, being a Field Medic. Round 1, 2 people die of the 4 spawned at that moment. Round 2, the 2 people that survived give no money to the other 4 team members and buy Hunting Shotgun/AK47. I save their butts 6+ times from 2+ Crawlers they wouldn't notice if the Crawlers SCREAMED at them.

No money is given again to others. Round 3, 3/6 players die. Ironically the same ones that ignore Crawlers. Me and the other 2 actually pretty OK players have to mop their mess up. They suggest to camp outside. Me, going with the majority, go outside.

Round 4. Everyone dies, me as last because of Stalkers, Gorefasts, Clots, and 2 Husks.

I get this. EVERY. GAME. I. PLAY.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
Decapitation pretty much marginalizes all specimens to the point where they pose absolutely no threat to the player unless he/she forgets to shoot them in his/her boredom. With that in mind no matter how fast specimens move or how much damage they deal or how much hp you give their bodies you don't get rid of the underlying fact that they will be really easy to kill. My advice: remove decapitations or give 'em all sturdy head.
just my NT$0.02
Agreed.

And Nenjin, you say you don't want an additional difficulty above suicidal, but most of the changes you want to the game are chages that are reflected by increasing difficulty levels. What would be better is an intense reworking of the game since most people think that suicidal is borderline unplayable not because it is difficult to kill the specs but because they have to make all the spec nearly kill you in one hit because they rarely reach you.
 
Upvote 0
not because it is difficult to kill the specs but because they have to make all the spec nearly kill you in one hit because they rarely reach you.

This is my point exactly. The uneven tension is due to the fact that specimens are so slow, apart from enraged scrakes & fleshpounds. IMO, sharpshooters' BOOM CROSSBOW HEADSHOT power against scrakes & fleshpounds robs some of the tension as well.

Everything does bloody well enough damage on 6 player suicidal, it's only too slow to give you a scare most of the time.
 
Upvote 0
This is my point exactly. The uneven tension is due to the fact that specimens are so slow, apart from enraged scrakes & fleshpounds. IMO, sharpshooters' BOOM CROSSBOW HEADSHOT power against scrakes & fleshpounds robs some of the tension as well.

Everything does bloody well enough damage on 6 player suicidal, it's only too slow to give you a scare most of the time.

But, the problem with really fast specimens is that they don't give the player enough time to be scared. The specimens deal so much damage to the player that you go from the mindset of "This is going well" to "Rats, I'm dead" in a matter of seconds.

Supposing the game becomes more scary and more intense as player health decreases and the number specimens in play increase. Ideally you want the player to be in a scary and intense situation as much as possible. The amount of specimens in play is limited by bandwidth and is pretty much a constant. The amount of time the player is at a low health is the only thing you have control over. The problem with the game is at higher difficulties the player spends very little time in a scary and intense situation because they spend very little time at low health.

Take the kfmod for example. The specimens moved slower then they do in retail and compensated by eating your bullets and asking for seconds and then thirds. This, overall, slowed down the pace of the game and gave the player ample time to think "oh @#%&!".
 
Upvote 0