Lots of ideas split 3: Perks and weapons

[Aze]

Originally Posted by BEEEEEES

These proposed changes will have no impact on a berserker's survivability: 30 hp will be wiped away with merely part of one gorefast's attack on 6-man suicidal: they hit for around 50 per attack- and a rank 6 berserker, after the berserker's pitiful resistance plays in, is still taking around 37 damage. No offense... but +1 hp regained per kill? Don't make me laugh. Even a lone crawler will so vastly outstrip the healing provided by this "benefit" that it is rendered pointless.

Hmm increase the heals then, also depending on the target's size etc? :P

The 2 versus 3 different attacks for melee: I could live with 3 attacks, but it seems like complication for something that doesn't really matter. I have been playing berserker a long time, and it is very rare that I really need a sweeping attack: zeds almost universally approach more-or-less single-file, not in a wall. It would be an interesting distraction, but is far less important than the following point...

Well a swipe would be good when surrounded though. Yeah, it's not IMPORTANT, but it would be cool and fun though, no?

In short, better survival options against Fleshpounds and the Patriarch are vastly more important to me than being able to hit 2 gorefasts standing in front of me- because that isn't usually a problem that the existing primary attacks can't take care of adequately. Right now the berserker is like a tasty snack for either of these enemies: I really don't want berserker to do so much damage that they can solo these zeds, but they should have some way to survive against them: like well-timed blocks with a melee weapon (or a shield).

Agreed. That's the Zerkers biggest problem. And I think that the "Berserk" thingy I suggested on the "Active Perk Power" thread would be ONE nice change in the right direction for that, don't you agreed?

Leveling commando: is hell incarnate. Add crawlers to the count. Each level of commando is like leveling Medic from 5 to 6: the level of grind leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Agreed. Even though I am SPECIFICLY trying to hunt for Stalkers, my damage required for the next level is way ahead either way.

Riot shield with any 1-H weapon: that riot shield should be heavy- like, chainsaw heavy: heavy enough that it is going to be taking the place of a T3 weapon; considering that, shield+handgun is in no way, shape, or form going to be unbalanced: you are giving up the comparatively incredible power a T3 weapon, the extra ammo you would have available with it, and even the ability to dual wield handguns to use shield+1-H weapons and maybe have one other weapon. You are making a huge ammo+power trade to get the defense a shield will provide. That is not broken.

Ok, that's a good arguement, but i was thinking that the Zerker should be able to carry Machete+Shield+Katana OR Machete+Shield+Chainsaw to have both some defense and offense (Or Katana+Chainsaw for some pure offensive power). I would rather say keep the weight moderately heavy but the price very, very high, EXCEPT for the Zerkers (just like Pipebombs for Demos and MP7 for Medics).

[SMIFF]

Originally Posted by Aze

And sure, aiming for the head is what the perk is all about, but should the perk become completely useless because you hit the body (you miss the head) every now and then?

Yes.

[Entangler]

I support the removal of the Sharpshooter's body shot damage bonus as well. Sharpshooters are supposed to aim for the head. A Sharpshooter that is not aiming for the head is not playing the perk correctly, and thus should not be rewarded.

Originally Posted by Entangler

For the Sharpshooter perk:

• Remove the body shot damage bonus to Sharpshooter weapons, and replace it with a headshot damage bonus for those weapons that is twice as powerful as the Sharpshooter's existing headshot bonus (and modify the latter so that it only applies to all other weapons).
• Tweak the recoil reduction bonus so that it only applies while the wielder is both stationary and using iron sights. (Optionally, with those tweaks in place, extend the bonus to apply to all weapons, except when firing full-auto.)
• Halve the reload speed bonus.

For the M14-EBR:

• Increase its weight to 8 blocks (up from 5).
• Decrease its maximum ammo capacity to 160 (down from 300).
• Cap its rate of fire at 80RPM (0.75s per shot).
• Fix the laser dot so that its position is predicted client-side, rather than waiting to be updated by the server. This change might also remove those "artefact lasers" that appear every so often.
• Fix the way its iron sights are displayed so that it is consistent across all display resolutions. With my old CRT monitor, running at 1024*768 (for the 100hz refresh rate), I agreed with those who called it too obstructive; now, at 1680*1050, I agree with those who say it's just fine. An educated guess would be that the problem lies with the way the iron sight field of view is calculated to accommodate different ratios, i.e., it's programmed to work well for widescreen resolutions, but was not tested at 4:3.

A nerf to the Crossbow's headshot damage multiplier is in order, too (from 6 to 3 should be about right).

Regarding the additional melee attack: I don't think that's the way to go. Handling crowds without being torn to pieces is something that Berserkers can do well enough without an AoE attack; it just takes a little planning and a decent reaction time. Besides, the old Chainsaw was about as close to AoE as you could get without actually being AoE - if it were restored, that'd be plenty.

The vampiric attack idea is... well, to be honest, it's just strange. That gets a no vote from me as well.

I hate to sound too negative, but the same goes for the Riot Shield, too. The Berserker's philosophy is that a good offence is the best defence. You don't block their attacks - you cut their heads off before they happen. Granted, how that applies to Flesh Pounds and the Patriarch is a good question - currently, of course, it doesn't. I do have a couple of ideas in that direction, but I won't post them in this thread, because I don't want to derail it (and besides, the Patriarch idea is still rusty).

I'd prefer to see stronger diversification between the Axe, Katana and Chainsaw so that they each fulfilled a particular purpose - the Axe for beheading the big 'uns, the Katana for assassinating guarded Husks and Sirens, and the Chainsaw for mowing down the lesser threats. Again, though, I won't go into that too much here.

I'm in pretty much the same situation as you, Aze - I have ideas for just about everything. Unfortunately, that means I can't really discuss your ideas without accidentally hijacking your threads to discuss mine... Then again, by the looks of it, we're espousing totally different approaches towards improving the game, so maybe it's for the best that I don't get too involved here - most of my feedback would be "no, do it this way instead!"

[Aze]

Originally Posted by Entangler

I support the removal of the Sharpshooter's body shot damage bonus as well. Sharpshooters are supposed to aim for the head. A Sharpshooter that is not aiming for the head is not playing the perk correctly, and thus should not be rewarded.

A nerf to the Crossbow's headshot damage multiplier is in order, too (from 6 to 3 should be about right).

Regarding the additional melee attack: I don't think that's the way to go. Handling crowds without being torn to pieces is something that Berserkers can do well enough without an AoE attack; it just takes a little planning and a decent reaction time. Besides, the old Chainsaw was about as close to AoE as you could get without actually being AoE - if it were restored, that'd be plenty.

The vampiric attack idea is... well, to be honest, it's just strange. That gets a no vote from me as well.

I hate to sound too negative, but the same goes for the Riot Shield, too. The Berserker's philosophy is that a good offence is the best defence. You don't block their attacks - you cut their heads off before they happen. Granted, how that applies to Flesh Pounds and the Patriarch is a good question - currently, of course, it doesn't. I do have a couple of ideas in that direction, but I won't post them in this thread, because I don't want to derail it (and besides, the Patriarch idea is still rusty).

I'd prefer to see stronger diversification between the Axe, Katana and Chainsaw so that they each fulfilled a particular purpose - the Axe for beheading the big 'uns, the Katana for assassinating guarded Husks and Sirens, and the Chainsaw for mowing down the lesser threats. Again, though, I won't go into that too much here.

I'm in pretty much the same situation as you, Aze - I have ideas for just about everything. Unfortunately, that means I can't really discuss your ideas without accidentally hijacking your threads to discuss mine... Then again, by the looks of it, we're espousing totally different approaches towards improving the game, so maybe it's for the best that I don't get too involved here - most of my feedback would be "no, do it this way instead!"

Please, I would like to hear your ideas as well!
And you say that you might be negative, but no not really, that is just your opinion and you explain why you feel like that. We all have different "visions" of the classes etc. I for example want more variety and options within the perks and their weapons, with new styles and options. For example, the Riot Shield bringing a defensive option to the Zerker. I don't want to REMOVE their offensive awesomeness, just add the OPTION of being able to be more defensive and "tanky".

And regarding the Katana, Fire Axe and Chainsaw, yes I agreed. I think my suggestions for Katana and Chainsaw are alright though, Katana being the allround powerful weapon you want to run around with, and the Chainsaw as the uber, but limited mayhem-bringer. The Fire Axe could be the best "stunner" weapon perhaps?

One thing about everyone's hatred against the Sharpies... Look at what your (not you in particular, I mean most of the posters on these threads) total summary of the nerf to the X-bow:
-It still weighs 10 blocks.
-It's headshot multiplier goes down (reasonable, I agreed, should not be so powerful on it's own, that should be the SS's power)
-AND reduce the general power off it by completely removing the damage bonus on it for bodyshots for the Sharpies. Which means it will be quite useless on the lesser specimen.
So you all basicly want the Sharpie to run around with JUST the X-bow, without the LAR, nor useful handguns if you want to give the handgun powers to the Gunslinger, and ONLY be able to kill the big ones with decent efficiency?
Not being able to strategically line up enemies to conserve ammo and kill multiple lesser ones in a row (cuz of the nerfed bodyshot damage)?
The Sharpshooters to become almost useless?
Think if we did this to every perk: Commandos only being able to kill Stalkers and Crawlers efficiently, Berserkers only able to kill Scrakes efficiently etc.
Nerfing for balance is fine, overnerfing bcuz of biased "hate" is not fine.
I think all perks should be able to handle MOST situations on their own, some situations way better, some way worse. But from the sound of it, it feels like you want the Sharpshooters ONLY being able to really kill big enemies without wasting tons of ammo.

[brphoenix]

Originally Posted by Aze

Umm, do i smell severe Sharpie-hate? I mean, nerfing/balancing it by all means, yes, but making it useless seems a bit harsh. I mean think about it, you may either run with (if the weight changes happen) LAR+X-Bow or LAR+M14. That way you will either have a varied style (LAR for lesser single targets, X-bow for multiple in a row or for big targets) or a "quick kill" style (LAR and M14 both for taking out lots of lesser targets, M14 as a decent backup on bigger targets).

And sure, aiming for the head is what the perk is all about, but should the perk become completely useless because you hit the body (you miss the head) every now and then? Don't you think that is quite harsh? As long as the tiniest targets like Crawlers and Stalkers are 1-shot and Clots don't take more than 2 bodyshots (on Hard diff.) with the LAR at level 6, I don't see a problem really. You still want to save ammo and try to aim for the head that way on Clots and above.

It's not useless. A Sharpshooter is intended to kill with headshots. I have nothing against adding headshot bonus damage in order to keep up with the overall damage loss, and also nothing against fixing weapon weights.

The thing with bodyshots and SS, is that some n00bs will just get the M14 and spam. Removing bodyshot bonus damage will make such a strategy at the very least, hard, if not impossible.

Increasing headshot bonus damage (with SS weapons only - otherwise they might go with different weapons) to a degree where a post-patch SS deals the EXACT same damage as a current SS with a headshot will actually improve gameplay for the experienced, skilled SS, as they now have more options of what weapons he'll carry.

[Aze]

Originally Posted by brphoenix

It's not useless. A Sharpshooter is intended to kill with headshots. I have nothing against adding headshot bonus damage in order to keep up with the overall damage loss, and also nothing against fixing weapon weights.

The thing with bodyshots and SS, is that some n00bs will just get the M14 and spam. Removing bodyshot bonus damage will make such a strategy at the very least, hard, if not impossible.

Increasing headshot bonus damage (with SS weapons only - otherwise they might go with different weapons) to a degree where a post-patch SS deals the EXACT same damage as a current SS with a headshot will actually improve gameplay for the experienced, skilled SS, as they now have more options of what weapons he'll carry.

Yes, I also very much so dislike the Sharpies with M14 spamming about. But there is the problem: the M14. I don't like its noobfriendliness either.
But here is how i would adjust the Sharpie:

Remove all Handgun bonuses and give that to the Gunslinger.
Damage bonus of the Xbow/LAR/M14 from 60% down to 30% at level 6.
Headshot bonus - Up from 50% to 60%-75% as damage compensation.
Make the M14 have a bit less ammo, like 14 extra mags down to 9-12 (then noobspammers will be punished for uncareful shots). Up its weight from 5 to 6.
Reduce the weight of LAR from 6 to 5.
Reduce the HS multiplier on the Xbow from 6x to 4x, but reduce its weight from 10 to 9 so you can carry it with LAR. Increase the PRICE of the Xbow a little too?
That would be a START imo. If that would not be enough, then by all means I would nerf it more. But small steps is better right?

[Ebay]

Originally Posted by Aze

Umm, do i smell severe Sharpie-hate? I mean, nerfing/balancing it by all means, yes, but making it useless seems a bit harsh. I mean think about it, you may either run with (if the weight changes happen) LAR+X-Bow or LAR+M14. That way you will either have a varied style (LAR for lesser single targets, X-bow for multiple in a row or for big targets) or a "quick kill" style (LAR and M14 both for taking out lots of lesser targets, M14 as a decent backup on bigger targets).

And sure, aiming for the head is what the perk is all about, but should the perk become completely useless because you hit the body (you miss the head) every now and then?
Yes
Don't you think that is quite harsh?
No
As long as the tiniest targets like Crawlers and Stalkers are 1-shot and Clots don't take more than 2 bodyshots (on Hard diff.) with the LAR at level 6, I don't see a problem really. You still want to save ammo and try to aim for the head that way on Clots and above.

A commando can't one hit kill a stalker on Suicidal. A sharpy can.
What gives?

[Aze]

Originally Posted by Ebay

A commando can't one hit kill a stalker on Suicidal. A sharpy can.
What gives?

Commando's weapon are full auto or semi auto. The LAR is "semi"-auto, do not have close as much ammo as the Commando weapons and have to reload bullet by bullet...
M14 as level 6 Sharpie i would guess is perfectly reasonable to require two shots on Stalkers, ON SUICIDAL. I Agreed on that.

Look guys, I'm with you on nerfing the Sharpie, but I don't think it should be moved ENTIRELY to headshots. That's all.

EDIT: Lol so much debatte about the Sharpie, it feels like the thread is derailing a little so I'm gonna ask some questions instead to get more feedback on the stuff which hasn't really been mentioned:

*Slug Shotgun. Does it seem like a welcome addition to the Support Perk as a secondary tier 2?
*Assault Rifle w. GL. Does it seem like a cool new style as a secondary tier 2 for the Commando with its burst fire and and grenade launcher? Remember, this weapon really synergizes well with the perk, not only the rifle rounds themselves, but also the general reload speed bonus of Commando makes the GL reload faster too
*Would the Lee Enfield w. Bayonette seem like a good second tier 2 for the Sharpshooter? Like I said in the orginial post, it's a middle ground of the LAR and X-bow with it's power and speed being in the middle of both of the 2, and the Bayonette is a quite nice defensive addition to the weapon. What do you guys think?
*Are the Firebug weapons ok?
The Blowtorch is mostly to help low level Firebugs to get a weapon early (it should be a very cheap and somewhat weak weapon). The range should just be slightly longer than the Thermal Lance.
The Thermal Lance is almost melee range, but has very high burst dps, which would be nice against Fleshies and Scrakes.
The Flare CANNON (yeah ;D) is like the M79 or something, but with a large powerful flare which deals a nice chunk of damage on the main target and then causes the main target and nearby specimen to be set on fire, like if burnt with the Flamethrower.
And the Flamethrower remains the bread n butter weapon.

[Ebay]

By nerfing the SS's bodyshot damage and increasing the headshot damage, we're buffing the SS+Scar/EBR combo, which is already the best thing you can use as a SS (Not for bigger specimens of course).
I'm all for it, because I love the combo, but wouldn't it pose problem?
I kinda like how weak the bodyshots do if I use the scar on weaklings (Suicidal= 2 shots for a crawler).

So you're doing amazing headshot damage, but bodyshot blows.

[Undedd Jester]

I thought of this once, but never posted it. I personally figured the sharpshooter should get most of his damage from his headshot bonus, but have it only apply to Sharpshooter weapons. Or at the very least it get a higher boost for sharpshooter weapons over other class ones.

This would mean for Pistol, Deagle, LAR, Crossbow, M14 would get say 30% boost on normal body shots and a 80% boost on headshots. Whereas on any other weapon gets maybe a 40% headshot boost.

[Holy_Colt]

What most don't quite understand is that there needs to be more British Army weapons as this takes place in the UK. All, if not most of the suggested weapons are within reason though as H&K weapons are world famous. The SCAR, M14, M9 are all famous U.S. weapons. The L22 (Bullpup) is the only British weapon, and has the accuracy/spread of an shotgun. I'm not necessarliy saying that the ideas should be limmited, but consideration in the settings is key. A new "Infantry" class would split up the short barreled weapons with the large barreled weapons. Such as

Commando:
L22 (Bullpup)
Sterling SMG
MP5 (Light)

Commando would basically be limited to machine guns with the exeption of the L22

Infantry:
L85A2 (Longer/accurate bullpup)
SCAR
L1A1 (Dogs Bollox)

This is pretty much the standard with a limited carry but can take almost as much damage as berserker, no ZED extention

Sharpshooter:
Winchester
Crossbow
M14
L96 (Bolt action sniper)

The addition of a L96 rifle that is as powerful as the m14, but with a scope and can take out most powerful foes within reason.

The other classes are pretty set as posted before, but a Carl Gustav (Charlie G) would be a good addition to the Engineer/Support class as a better/more realistic replacement for the LAW. Lastly, while the support is pretty much complete, a Machine gun such as a Minimi or a SAW would be appropriate, however it would only have 1 extra Mag/100 round belt. Given that the same 5.56 cartridge in the L22 would provide the same damage, it would give about 60 more rounds. Alas the fact that the game doesn't have a prone feature would prevent it from being bipod mountable.

[Aze]

Originally Posted by Ebay

By nerfing the SS's bodyshot damage and increasing the headshot damage, we're buffing the SS+Scar/EBR combo, which is already the best thing you can use as a SS (Not for bigger specimens of course).
I'm all for it, because I love the combo, but wouldn't it pose problem?
I kinda like how weak the bodyshots do if I use the scar on weaklings (Suicidal= 2 shots for a crawler).

So you're doing amazing headshot damage, but bodyshot blows.

Unleeeess you ALSO increase the weight of the SCAR and M14 to 8 (or one of them to 8 and the other to 7) then you CAN'T carry both at the same time...

@Holy Colt
I understand making the weapons more british, but I don't like the Infantry perk. It's too much like the Commando, even though it would be cool with a more "ordinary soldier" perk.

[Ebay]

Originally Posted by Aze

Unleeeess you ALSO increase the weight of the SCAR and M14 to 8 (or one of them to 8 and the other to 7) then you CAN'T carry both at the same time...

@Holy Colt
I understand making the weapons more british, but I don't like the Infantry perk. It's too much like the Commando, even though it would be cool with a more "ordinary soldier" perk.

That'd be lame, because doing so would also prevent you from using a Lar (I think) and another Automatic rifle with the commando.

Stop thinking about reducing ammo, and reduce body shot enough so that unless you headshot constantly, you'll be wasting ammo at an exponential rate, like you do if you use the scar to do anything else but headshots.

[Aze]

Originally Posted by Ebay

That'd be lame, because doing so would also prevent you from using a Lar (I think) and another Automatic rifle with the commando.

Stop thinking about reducing ammo, and reduce body shot enough so that unless you headshot constantly, you'll be wasting ammo at an exponential rate, like you do if you use the scar to do anything else but headshots.

Umm... I don't think you should be running with the SCAR, AK47 AND a LAR in the first place. That's just not right. Not that you could either way right now, so why are you so worried? The LAR is 6 in weight, the SCAR is 5, which leaves you with 3 more weight. The AK47 doesn't way 3 -.-
Running with the SCAR and AK47 should be enough for the Commando, and even if you increase the SCAR's weight to 8, you can still carry the AK47 as well, as its weight is only 6.

[CandleJack]

I'd like to see the M14 made more of a sharpie weapon, and as for the complete removal of handgun bonuses, how about leave the massive headshot bonuses, but make it long range only. Like if you can pull off a headshot at 60-100m then you should be able to get some kind of bonus.

[Aze]

Originally Posted by CandleJack

I'd like to see the M14 made more of a sharpie weapon, and as for the complete removal of handgun bonuses, how about leave the massive headshot bonuses, but make it long range only. Like if you can pull off a headshot at 60-100m then you should be able to get some kind of bonus.

M14 with a scope that zooms a bit less than the Crossbow would be nice, yes. And perhaps remove the laser.

The headshot bonus should apply to all weapons, it's the "general" bonus the sharpshooter has (all perks have a general bonus more or less). But making the power of your shots, either all shots or only headshots become more powerful with distance (with a cap ofc :P)... now that's a pretty nice idea, even though completely illogical, it's still a nice reason why to keep away and use ironsight!

[Aze]

A little bumpety-bump!

Just a thought that struck me was that the Demolitions perk feels rather empty if nothing else is implemented. Anyone got ideas for a new tier 2 weapon?

[shaqism]

Good ideas, but Im against the 3 different melee attacks.

[Aze]

Bump!

[Aze]

Bumpetybump!

I would love more feedback please!

What are your thoughts of the perk changes? What about the new weapons?