Best and worst of suggestion - Look here before posting

[[TW]Wilsonam]

1. Take a careful look at the rear end of the Ausf. E - you'll see the smoke pots above the main muffler. Now take a look at an F1, F2 or G - look - no smoke pots! And, no, I don't just mean modern drawings that have forgotten to put them on - I mean both photos and German Wehrmacht equipment layouts.

2. As for the Zielschiene - we are looking at it and usability. The sight is modeled, along with the gunner's port - but it is really cumbersome and hopeless to use. Current view is that it ain't worth the effort, for the rare (broken optic) moments when you'd want to use it.

[RedGuardist]

Mr. Void, I think you are now just being inappropriate. Take a second look at what you wrote:

Originally Posted by Void

complicated and boring simulators for the nazi fan boys

Nazi fan boys? Is asking and discussing about realistic features nowadays considered as being a nazi fan boy in general, or are you just implying to mr. Tank!? I´m not aware if he is a nazi fan boy or not, but pulling that card when discussing about - in my opinion too - very interesting and unique features that have never been implemented in any game that I am aware of, is just lame.



ps. Thanks for the clarifying info, Alan.

[Capt.Cool]

Iron sights for tanks (Zielschiene) added.

Originally Posted by [TW]Wilsonam

take a look at an F1, F2 or G - no smoke pots!

smoke dispenser (Nebelkerzenabwurf) for tanks not added. Thanx Alan for the info.

(I still hope we will see more tank models in the far future where we also have smoke dispenser included!)

[Ralfst3r]

Stickied the thread.

[Tank!]

Originally Posted by [TW]Wilsonam

take a look at an F1, F2 or G - look - no smoke pots!

Wrong!

[[TW]Wilsonam]

Originally Posted by Capt.Cool

Best of INFANTRY:

Easy pickup system for dropped weapons & ammo! Link
A better than the system we had in OST, no piles of nades/guns/ammo you cant pick up easy

magnetic tank-mines

Gentle customization, like different helmets
(normal helmet - netfoliage - camocover - whitesheet cover for winter maps ect.)

showing the average skill level of players on a server, based on their ranking Link
this will help players to choose a game with players of the same skill level. A total newbie wont have fun on an experts game.

Fair System to select weapons: Link
Players with fast computers can always select their weaponry first, while people with
slower loading computer are generally forced to always play with leftover weaponry.

Selectable spawnpoints Link
Player (or just the SL) should select where to spawn on fixed positions on the map to make their tactic less predictable.

Last stand maps (Wave defense/Holdout maps) Link (Yea! thanx a lot TW!)

Removing spawnprotection once the enemy team is out of reinforcements Link

suppression fire for MGs

Flamethrowers and molotovs (not at game release, but considered)

Squadleader can select location to deploy stationary MG or antitank gun on different fixed spots on the map.
Like there are 10 fixed spots for deployment, and the SL can use 2 of them. That way the map dont gets boring cause its always changing.
It will prevent a "standard procedure" of attacking, cause you dont know where the fixed guns are at the start of the round
(if its too complicated to include that the SL selects the spots, it can be also random)

Country Flag in the scoreboard (teamroster) next to each players name Link
So you know who is from your country (could be transfered from the steam account)

A system to share ammo: drop individual clips and magazines to team mates.

Soviet marksman can select the plasch palatka (red army cloak/poncho). Link
wraped rifles as achievements for Heros (was used by normal dedicated marksmen, too, not only by snipers - see Link!)

asymmetric team ratio for some maps where attackers have a larger team.
Meaning the game autobalances the teams so that you can have 2:1 Russian or German numerical advantage.
Defenders have the advantage of a fortified building which is easy to defend. This would fit for the later maps where Germans are in the pocket.

Stuka attacks instead of normal arty for the commander (on some maps).

mixed selection of 2 types of nades. (1 frag 1 smoke) Link

Uniform variety: fieldmade wintercamo (bed linen cover), ponchos (soviet plasch palatka/german Zeltbahnen)

checking MG ammo by looking at belt or drum Magazine
(soviet DP machinegun had markings on the drum so you can see the exact amount of bullets left)

Dead bodies randomly generated at start of map with 1 weapon or ammo you could pick up.
Besides the realism of additional bodies on the ground, you could only pick these weapons/ammo once per round.
And the bodies are randomly generated at different locations so there isn't always a mad dash to the same places all the time.

Medals achieved visible on players body (Iron Cross, etc.) Link
shouldn't be too difficult to modify the skin and change it via online ranking on steam

Raindrops running down on binoculars, tank optics and sniper scopes. Link
on maps where it rains, of course!

Recon plane (Yes)
Realistic, not like in COD where you see all hidden players in buildings, too.

Bayo stabbing from behind should be lethal Link

Mobile Artillery (guns being towed with Halftrack or manpower). Link

Limited Ammo in supply crates depending on map or gamemode. (relaxed = unlimited, hardcore = limited)
Or maybe just on some maps like in the last weeks of defense for the germans

Medics (in a realistic way): Medics can give spare bandages to other players. Not more.
Medics can not "heal" or revive players like in BF.

Server sided Ragdolls Link

Remove enemy notification in cap bar Link

ability to roll when prone Link

Wirecutters for engineer class Link
just necessary if the game features barbwire...

MG42 hip-firing Link

Look over deployed MG Link
Helps to scan for targets without the ironsights. Also make the tracers useful.

alternative capture system Link

Individual Reinforcments: Reinforcment pool depends on your class and your style of play. Link
A great idea proberly just for the Hardcore mode. Please read the whole thread to understand

Manual reloading (topping off) if bolt rifle mag is half full Link
should be able to reload bolt rifle with part stripper clip if your mag is half full

Tutorial movies for new players. Link

Local voice chat communication Link

Ok, I was asked to comment on a few of these...

Weapon/ammo pickup has seen a lot of love... you'll see improvements.

Yes, there will be ways to get a handle on the "skill" levels on servers. We want to see people have the ability (especially new players) to play with people at roughly their own level, so they aren't just getting murdered right out the gate!

We won't do tutorial movies but there WILL be tutorials/training included.

No medics. End of story!

Randomly generated dead bodies to pillage: no - no need. There will be quite enough dead people around after the first 30 seconds or so anyway!

Stuka etc attacks instead of arty. No. We were messing with this one a while back internally, but the weight of ordnance getting dropped is just horrendous. Totally overpowering.

[Chadwiick]

Capt. Cool I salute you for your dedication to put a bunch of threads into 1. Thank you good sir.

[Tank!]

Originally Posted by [TW]Wilsonam

1. Take a careful look at the rear end of the Ausf. E - you'll see the smoke pots above the main muffler. Now take a look at an F1, F2 or G* - look - no smoke pots! And, no, I don't just mean modern drawings that have forgotten to put them on - I mean both photos and German Wehrmacht equipment layouts.

2. As for the Zielschiene - we are looking at it and usability. The sight is modeled, along with the gunner's port - but it is really cumbersome and hopeless to use. Current view is that it ain't worth the effort, for the rare (broken optic) moments when you'd want to use it.

Point #2 first. The Germans considered it worth the effort as it was present in the production run of the Panzer II, 38(t), III, and IV. When speaking of the IV only in late 1944 with the very late IV J was the Zielschiene and its front turret port dropped:











It really comes down to the following:

1.) Can the optics be broken in game? Yes.
2.) Was there a backup device in these tanks? Yes.
3.) Is it worth it? In COD/DOD:s: No. In 'realism' type games: Yes.

As for the cumbersome and hopeless to use part I suppose the sniper's iron sight on the K98k will be as graceful as a cat. Really it is up to the RO2 player to form an opinion about how cumbersome and hopeless or useful and crafty the equipment is.



Now for point #1. Looking at a Panzer IV E the smoke device is right above the main muffler:











In comparison on the Panzer IV F1/F2 the smoke device was moved to the left. If you carefully look with your eyes you can see its location is now above the secondary muffler for the traverse motor (circled in red). I am surprized that you missed this:













Here are some pictures of the Nebelkerzenabwurfvorrichtung on the Panzer IV F1 and F2 (circled in red):

[Tank!]

This one is even in stalingrad:








F2

[Tank!]

[Tank!]

Continued from previous page......



*As for the G, why bring it up? There is no need to because the tank depicted in RO2 is an F2:

















But lets say you guys at Tripwire decide to convert the F2 into a G by replacing the single baffle muzzle break and deleting all relevant vision/signal ports. In that case some extremely early G's retained the Nebelkerzenabwurfvorrichtung but normally on the model G's the Nebelkerzenabwurfvorrichtung was replaced with turret smoke devices:

Originally Posted by Capt.Cool

smoke dispenser (Nebelkerzenabwurf) for tanks not added. Thanx Alan for the info. (I still hope we will see more tank models in the far future where we also have smoke dispenser included!)

Put it back on the list please. Also add tank tracks to the list as well

Originally Posted by [TW]Wilsonam

Stuka etc attacks instead of arty. No. We were messing with this one a while back internally, but the weight of ordnance getting dropped is just horrendous. Totally overpowering.

Just give it four 50 kg (110 lb) wing rack bombs then instead of the heavier bombs.

[TT33]

Originally Posted by I think this is what you are referring to

Both Ausf F(F1) and Ausf F2 were identical except for their armament.Ausf F2’s new 75mm L/43 gun was mounted with single baffle muzzle brake.

There are various differences between what is dubbed the "F2" & the G series while they may seem small they are not non-existent as you seem to imply.

[Tank!]

According to the D 653/7 manual and a Vorlaufige K-Geratverzeichnis (parts manual) there is an F2.

[Capt.Cool]

Originally Posted by [TW]Wilsonam

Ok, I was asked to comment on a few of these...

Weapon/ammo pickup has seen a lot of love... you'll see improvements.

Yes, there will be ways to get a handle on the "skill" levels on servers.

Thanx Alan for the quick info!

[Apos]

F2 and early G is the same tank

A couple of hundred G's recieved the L/43 cannon with single baffle muzzle break. One can generally say that the name changes were not based on any modifications on vehicles but orders from high levels. The vehicles just got a new name even if they were surviving, old vehicles. Before 1942 July, the long-gunned Panzer IV were known as F2, but they became G after then. That means, F2 and G were not essentially differentiable until post-war militarians separate them either due to short of information or for a convenient use.

All the changes that one "may" recognise as changes from F2 to mid G are not changes from one to another, but changes during the production run of the ausf. G.

"Panzerkampfwagen IV Ausf. G, H and J 1942-45"
By Hilary L. Doyle, Tom Jentz

[1]Was there any difference between Pz.Kpfw.IV Ausf. F2 and Ausf. G

The F2 and the G were basically the same - the designation for the 7. Serie Pzkpfw IV with 7.5cm L/43 changed from F2 to G on 5th June 1942. From 1st July 1942, Wa Pruef 6 decreed that the old F1 was to be called the F and the old F2 was to be called the G.

The muzzle brake was just one of many non-diagnostic changes in production, like hull side doors in Pzkpfw III.



The F2 is basically an early G, so to speak. The F2 only existed from March 1942 until July 1942 when all F2's were renamed G's, from then on it was known as a G model. There really is no difference between an F2 and a G, since they are the same tank. The thing is, that there were modifications made during the production run.

The muzzle brakes are NOT how you tell the difference, since the G models had the single chamber muzzle brake until September 1942, when it was replaced by the double chamber muzzle brake. Likewise, the L/43 and L/48 guns are NOT how you tell the difference either, since the G model did not get the L/48 gun until April 1943.

Best way to look at it, is that the F2 and early G's are the same (since the F2 was renamed G anyway), then you have a line of G's with several modifications added, then in May of 1943, the H model comes out.

(...) This is an early model G identified by the single baffle muzzle brake at the end of the L43 barrel. The spare tracks attached to the front hull plate were a regular addition and added protection.

[Unus Offa, Unus Nex]

Ok I guess I'll come with one of my suggestions then.

In the pursuit of all out realism I think differences is ammunition used by the two sides should be noticable. By that I'm not just talking muzzle velocities and ballistic coefficients, I am also talking dispersion.

For example the Germans were the only ones to issue rifle ammunition seating heavy boat tailed projectiles, whilst the Russians relied on light flat based spitzers. This gave the Germans a clear advantage in engagements at long ranges, as their projectiles featured a much higher ballistic coefficient, and were therefore less affected by wind and range, resulting in higher accuracy.

Now this didn't make much of difference in places such as Stalingrad ofcourse, where typical engagement ranges were usually below 300 meters. But at ranges above 400 meters the German marksmen had a clear advantage over their Soviet counterparts, atleast when it came to the accuracy of their weapons system.

Below I have provided the specifications & characteristics of the German & Soviet rifle ammunition used during WWII:

7.92x57mm IS s.S. Patrone (600mm barrel)
Caliber: .323"
Bullet weight: 12.8 gram (198 grains)
Muzzle velocity: 760 m/s (2493 fps)
Sectional density: 190.5 kgf/cm² (.271 lb/in²)
Ballistic coefficient (G1): .593

Ballistics under std. atmospheric conditions at sea level (ρ = 1.225 kg/m3), with a 8 km/h crosswind:

MV @ 100 m = 712 m/s (windage: 1 cm)
MV @ 200 m = 665 m/s (windage: 4.1 cm)
MV @ 400 m = 577 m/s (windage: 17.5 cm)
MV @ 600 m = 497 m/s (windage: 42.2 cm)
MV @ 800 m = 427 m/s (windage: 80.7 cm)
MV @ 1000 m = 370 m/s (windage: 134.8 cm)

7.62x54mm R Type L (730mm barrel)
Caliber: .311"
Bullet weight: 9.5 gram (147 grains)
Muzzle velocity: 860 m/s (2821 fps)
Sectional density: 152.5 kgf/cm² (.217 lb/in²)
Ballistic coefficient (G1): .397

Ballistics under std. atmospheric conditions at sea level (ρ = 1.225 kg/m3), with a 8 km/h crosswind:

MV @ 100 m = 784 m/s (windage: 1.3 cm)
MV @ 200 m = 711 m/s (windage: 5.2 cm)
MV @ 400 m = 576 m/s (windage: 23.2 cm)
MV @ 600 m = 460 m/s (windage: 58.2 cm)
MV @ 800 m = 370 m/s (windage: 115.1 cm)
MV @ 1000 m = 314 m/s (windage: 195.3 cm)

[Tank!]

Originally Posted by LemoN

PS: Lol at you kids voting down my posts and voting up your's.

I was thinking the same thing too...
1 out of 3 members like this post

Originally Posted by Capt.Cool

Thanx Alan for the quick info!

So Alan, no comments on the IV's Nebelkerzenabwurfvorrichtung?

Originally Posted by Apos

stuff

The point is that RO2's IV has the features of a 7/BW but is labeled an 8/BW. For it to be a genuine (not post production renamed to) 8/BW the single baffle muzzle break, vision/signal ports, and whatever else would have to be deleted. Most importantly zusatzpanzer (30mm additional armor) would have to be added to the hull of the 8/BW. So far in RO2's IV screenshots there is no evidence of this additional front armor. Essentually it looks like RO2's IV will be like RO1's "mix and match versions" Panther "G".

Originally Posted by Unus Offa, Unus Nex

Ok I guess I'll come with one of my suggestions then.

I guess I will too:

YouTube - Red Orchestra RMFMod �延信管テスト ��2

[RedGuardist]

Originally Posted by Unus Offa, Unus Nex

For example the Germans were the only ones to issue rifle ammunition seating heavy boat tailed projectiles, whilst the Russians relied on light flat based spitzers. )

Soviets started to produce type D heavy ball in 1930 (type L light flat tail spitzers stayed still in production), and type D was a heavy boat tail bullet. Allthough intented mainly to be used in MGs, it was used also on rifles.

[Oldih]

Originally Posted by Tank!

For it to be a genuine (not post production renamed to) 8/BW

Considering that the tanks were virtually the same initially and the germans tended to have bad habit of discriminating their own names and designations alot (E.G. Bf 109 is officially Bf 109, yet in operational reports Bf 109 and Me 109 were commonplace even on the same damm page), even to the point everything's a huge pile of mess it's bit odd to call for lack of genuinity when it's authentically speaking accurate.

Speaking of the devil it was said it is early G and going with the fact that early Gs are virtually the same as F2, what is wrong with that? If they were claiming for late G for some later period of war it would make more sense to point out some of the flaws, unless you specifically argue that if any historian who uses PzIVG must refer to the common accepted modern historian point of view, not how the germans labelled it.

[Floyd]

Originally Posted by Unus Offa, Unus Nex

Ok I guess I'll come with one of my suggestions then.

Spoiler!

In the pursuit of all out realism I think differences is ammunition used by the two sides should be noticable. By that I'm not just talking muzzle velocities and ballistic coefficients, I am also talking dispersion.

For example the Germans were the only ones to issue rifle ammunition seating heavy boat tailed projectiles, whilst the Russians relied on light flat based spitzers. This gave the Germans a clear advantage in engagements at long ranges, as their projectiles featured a much higher ballistic coefficient, and were therefore less affected by wind and range, resulting in higher accuracy.

Now this didn't make much of difference in places such as Stalingrad ofcourse, where typical engagement ranges were usually below 300 meters. But at ranges above 400 meters the German marksmen had a clear advantage over their Soviet counterparts, atleast when it came to the accuracy of their weapons system.

Below I have provided the specifications & characteristics of the German & Soviet rifle ammunition used during WWII:

7.92x57mm IS s.S. Patrone (600mm barrel)
Caliber: .323"
Bullet weight: 12.8 gram (198 grains)
Muzzle velocity: 760 m/s (2493 fps)
Sectional density: .271 lb/in²
Ballistic coefficient (G1): .593

Ballistics under std. atmospheric conditions at sea level (ρ = 1.225 kg/m3), with a 5 mph crosswind:

MV @ 100 m = 712 m/s (windage: 0.4")
MV @ 200 m = 665 m/s (windage: 1.6")
MV @ 400 m = 577 m/s (windage: 6.9")
MV @ 600 m = 497 m/s (windage: 16.6")
MV @ 800 m = 427 m/s (windage: 31.8")
MV @ 1000 m = 370 m/s (windage: 53.1")

7.62x54mm R Type L (730mm barrel)
Caliber: .311"
Bullet weight: 9.5 gram (147 grains)
Muzzle velocity: 860 m/s (2821 fps)
Sectional density: .217 lb/in²
Ballistic coefficient (G1): .397

Ballistics under std. atmospheric conditions at sea level (ρ = 1.225 kg/m3), with a 5 mph crosswind:

MV @ 100 m = 784 m/s (windage: 0.5")
MV @ 200 m = 711 m/s (windage: 2.1")
MV @ 400 m = 576 m/s (windage: 9.1")
MV @ 600 m = 460 m/s (windage: 22.9")
MV @ 800 m = 370 m/s (windage: 45.3")
MV @ 1000 m = 314 m/s (windage: 76.9")

Question?
Why are the units in both metric and US units of measure? As mv is stated in m/s, is the windage in mm, cm or inches? It says inches but one has to wonder at the mixing of the units of measure.

Comment:
There are other factors involved in determing accuracy other than just the ballistic co-efficient. However, taking the information presented as fact, for all intents and purposes, thats not a whole lot of difference with respect to the game.

The big difference begins to occur somewhere between 400m and 600m. I guess one could extrapolate, but its a shame that 500m was left out. With irons sights...forget about it. The accuracy of the weapon is going to be the least determining factor in shot placement at that distance. With a 4x scope, yeah 3in(?) at 400m for the 'marksman' as found in the game could make a difference. For a trained sniper, he'd know his weapon, ammunition, atmosphere and adjust accordingly.

Can we even see anyone at 500m in this game? Can someone tell me of a map in RO:OST that has that distance so I can check that out?

Having said the above, I would be surprised if the BC of the respective ammunitions aren't used (at least some fashion) compilating the trajectory of the rounds in RO. Why wouldn't they? One of TW's 'selling points' has always touted real world ballistics.