TWI+community whitelist testing team

[[UIT] Akame]

Originally Posted by omarfw

by definition an exploit is something that allows you to kill stuff without being killed. the minute you take away the specimens ability to kill you, you are exploiting.

So it is ok is some of the specs can get to you? Or if there are high level weapon spawns? Or huge amounts of ammo and triggered spawns with easy kills? And for that matter how much of an issue is it if exploiters have to go through so many hoops to exploit?

These are the issues with trying to create some agreement on a stricter whitelist.

[gusone]

If every map was as impossible as Biohazard-RV1 the game would have no longevity or replay value. Easy maps are fun too but they do get boring but that's no reason to not to whitelist them.

[omarfw]

Originally Posted by [UIT] Akame

So it is ok is some of the specs can get to you? Or if there are high level weapon spawns? Or huge amounts of ammo and triggered spawns with easy kills? And for that matter how much of an issue is it if exploiters have to go through so many hoops to exploit?

These are the issues with trying to create some agreement on a stricter whitelist.

there will always be exploits, and some people will work tirelessly to find them.
some of them people will never catch, but the mainstream ones that start to be used broadly are the easiest ones to crack down on.

and the level of difficulty of a map is another issue. there's no way a map so ridiculously easy could ever be okay'd by TWI anyway. there's nothing to discuss concerning that issue. it already has criteria.

[ffjason]

Originally Posted by omarfw

Problem: There are a ton of crappy/way too easy maps that make it on the whitelist and this needs to stop.

2: A mutator that allows for players to review the map in-game and on the fly when they come across something that should be noted. Players will rate the map on a 1-10 scale and write down any exploits or reviews.

3: the server will be password protected and only chosen and qualified members of the team will be allowed access.

All in all, it makes reviewing maps for whitelisting more like just playing KF normally rather then taking time out of your day to review maps.

and no, i would not expect auto-membership just because i came up with the idea.

You make a good point and I think i've read all the posts so far and a lot of good points have been made but not many ideas if TWI aren't going to have a community & staff whitelisting team. So:

Proposition 2: Forget TWI and just have a team of community members who are passionate about the whitelist and the maps (i.e. mappers and players combined) who are willing to spend some time playing through all the custom maps which are currently on the whitelist.

Revisions could be suggesting to TWI after sufficient feedback is received. However, even if TWI don't implement it server owners might be more inclined to add (or update to) maps found on a community approved map list.

We would need a server to use but it is a good idea to have the mutator for feedback (can anyone create this and get it whitelisted?). We could also use a leader to organise the team and reviewer who could compile the feedback into one review. But essentially the rest of the team would be community based & open for anyone to join.

Certain guidelines could be put in place to define a "bad" map (just ideas):
1. Set number of exploits found
2. Game ruining bug/exploit
3. Too easy - i.e. obvious camp spot for entire map
4. Low score (if we're ranking maps, less than 5/10 = bad?)

To begin with we can have a thread in the level design forum for discussing the current whitelist where we can decide to keep or get rid of maps from it. For example, it will be easy to suggest a list of old versions of maps for removal. TWI may take our advise but it also might influence server owners to update their servers to the noted versions. I can easily put together a list of maps which have been replaced with newer versions from my research on my map pack. In fact with relation to that map pack I'm happy to have it contain only the best community decided maps (I could be persuaded to include some betas, under certain circumstances) but this can be discussed elsewhere.

[MasterCheff]

automatically doom would be un whitelisted xD

[omarfw]

Originally Posted by -[SiN]-bswearer

i think what is needed is a group of people who will be able to dedicate some time testing and reporting map/mutator issues AFTER maps have been approved on the whitelist.

as i said in another thread, as a map goes through the whole whitelising process, it's still not going to get the amount of testing it would realistically need to make sure it is bug free. it takes weeks, even months for hundreds and probably thousands of players to actually provide enough play time to fully test maps. eventually, as we've seen with some maps, people find major ways to exploit maps. at least the map will get to be played for a while as this "extented testing" takes place. as problems arise, they need to be addressed quickly and efficiently.

if there are essentially "informants" available to discover these maps and their exploits, the feedback would be there for unsuitable maps to be removed from the whitelist until they are fixed. sure some would label them "KF Police" but you know what, all players are bound to the EULA they all signed in order to play the game. that contract forbids cheating, and any exploitation of the game is, in all reality, cheating. banning cheaters/exploiters would not be smart, or even feasible for that matter, but removing or at the very least reducing their ability to cheat is something that can be and should be done.

i'd be happy to offer my time to help make the game as exploit free as possible.

that's pretty much what I suggested in this topic lol

[KayossZero]

Originally Posted by omarfw

I'll make this post short and simple.

Problem: There are a ton of crappy/way too easy maps that make it on the whitelist and this needs to stop. The whitelist system currently works in theory but it needs to be more uniform and thorough.

Proposition: Form a whitelisting team of chosen community players combined with TWI staff and mods to more thoroughly test maps for exploits, difficulty levels or any other reasons that should be fixed before it can be whitelisted. Not only will this mean less work for TWI to focus on other things, but it allows exploitable maps to not slip through the cracks so easily.

Naturally this won't get ALL the exploits out of maps before whitelisting, but I feel we should try to avoid having maps like Doom2 or Concerthall whitelisted that have enormous exploits in them that we have to nag and nag about to have un-whitelisted and fixed and at least get the very obvious crap out of the whitelist.

How will this be accomplished?

1: A official test server hosted by TWI with all the maps awaiting approval.

2: a mutator that allows for players to review the map in-game and on the fly when they come across something that should be noted.

This of course is a bit unnecessary but i feel it makes the reviewing less of a chore than tabbing out or writing something down on paper. It will also help consolidate reviews better.

players will rate the map on a 1-10 scale and write down any exploits or reviews.

3: the server will be password protected and only chosen and qualified members of the team will be allowed access.

All in all, it makes reviewing maps for whitelisting more like just playing KF normally rather then taking time out of your day to review maps.

and no, i would not expect auto-membership just because i came up with the idea.

I'm sure your little idea is going to save the whitelist. Some of you *True Believers* aren't at the jumping off the sinking ship mentality yet but it's fun to watch you all spiel over and over again over pointless issues.

[Shadow of Providence]

If you wanted to un whitelist Doom 2 for that little room, you'd have to do the same for bedlam, westlondon, waterworks, biotics and quite possibly all the default maps have 1+ places you can pathing block fleshpounds and medic/zerk grind. I dont even like the map but I feel there is a lot of bias in the community against this map.

[omarfw]

Originally Posted by Shadow of Providence

If you wanted to un whitelist Doom 2 for that little room, you'd have to do the same for bedlam, westlondon, waterworks, biotics and quite possibly all the default maps have 1+ places you can pathing block fleshpounds and medic/zerk grind. I dont even like the map but I feel there is a lot of bias in the community against this map.

there is a lot of bias because this map is incredibly exploitable.

everytime we have it de-whitelisted and patched up and re-whitelisted, people find another way to exploit it.

here's the facts: everytime we re-whitelist doom2 it is loaded onto a slew of servers and played non-stop. why? because it's exploitable and easy. it's sure as hell not because of how "fun" it is. there are plenty maps more fun then that one. it's not about the little room, the whole map is a breeding ground for cheaters.

enough is enough. a map should only have so many tries. 3 strikes and you're out. de-whitelist it for good.

[omarfw]

Originally Posted by -[sin]-bswearer

the only reason why anyone defends it is because they want to keep using it to level and farm.

quoted. for. truth.

[ffjason]

Lets not turn this into a anti-doom thread... isn't there enough of them already?

If TWI isn't going to do this shall we do it as a community instead?

[omarfw]

Originally Posted by ffjason

Lets not turn this into a anti-doom thread... isn't there enough of them already?

If TWI isn't going to do this shall we do it as a community instead?

it's already in the works

[[UIT] Akame]

Originally Posted by omarfw

it's already in the works

I am quite interested in this.

But a few items:
1. Even if steps were taken to inform map makers of issues with maps, how many are going to take the time to fix their maps particularly if they don't play kf or visit these forums. Do you say, ok then remove them form whitelist. Or do you say well the map isn't bad so we'll let it go?

2. To actually effect the whitelist would require participation from TWI.

[omarfw]

Originally Posted by [UIT] Akame

2. To actually effect the whitelist would require participation from TWI.

as it stands right now, everyone has the ability and right to send pictures and info about exploits to the TWI staff and have a map re-checked and maybe de-whitelisted.
this team would exist to simply have a bigger say then just one person and would be more thorough and organized in finding exploits.

[anthracy]

I'm game. Have some servers we can use if you'd like. Just get a group together in Steam.

[omarfw]

a bit of a necro-post but i'm re-opening the KEPT testing for applications again. PM me for an invite.

[HaTeMe]

Kf-Defense should be removed from whitelist, that way those nubbies might actually stop playing that stupid grinding map.

[omarfw]

Originally Posted by -[SiN]-bswearer

so, was the vacation nice? get a good tan, meet some special ladies?

but seriously, welcome back buddy! we missed you

thanks. i still lack a computer of my own but i have this shiny new alienware my roommate purchased and i have some free days to set aside for whitelist testing. hopefully when we have enough members we will actually be able to put together our first group "map scouring party" on our private server. should be good fun.

Originally Posted by HaTeMe

Kf-Defense should be removed from whitelist, that way those nubbies might actually stop playing that stupid grinding map.

oh believe me we'll get to that one in time. it's a perfectly fun map, but it is indeed too easy and is used for easy grinding.

[mamoo]

Originally Posted by omarfw

oh believe me we'll get to that one in time. it's a perfectly fun map, but it is indeed too easy and is used for easy grinding.

Yeah, theres no hope for it as it seems the author has gone kaput!

[HaTeMe]

Originally Posted by omarfw

oh believe me we'll get to that one in time. it's a perfectly fun map, but it is indeed too easy and is used for easy grinding.

Yeah... I dont understand how it was whitelisted in the first place. I mean, the map is extremely small with only ONE trader, whole team being on high ground most of the time and the specimens basically have no chance. And the damn doors spawn pre-welded too. But anyway I thought the whole idea of the game was making people move by having multiple traders in the map, each of which will open randomly, so having only 1 trader right next to you ALL THE TIME is just somehow what against the rules imo :S. Unless it was extremely hard to begin with, which Defense isnt.

Did it also have almost infinite money or do I remember it wrong?