New customization option

The ammo satchel is terrible. It takes up weight for other weapons (granted it might not be relevance space if you already have a full loadout with no more room for weapons) and increases reload time. The reload time would get you killed so easily. You can sustain your DPS for longer but with a weapon like crossbow or flamethrower your DPS would be cut in half at best.

Tactical Harness doesn't allow 10 unit weapons (except for support) and seriously restricts weapon choices as well. You get twice the ammo and half the weapons at best. And a 5% decrease in reloads? You better get something better than this since you can hardly switch to a full weapon besides your 9mm.

And the backpack... You get an extra dual deagles or being able to carry a primary weapon with the 10 pounders at the cost of 20% of your ammo (approximately the base ammo for weapons that get an ammo boost for their perk) and to boot an increase in switch time. This might be good for berserker but no one else.

Dioxin said:

I would like to propose a new item for purchase(with the potential to add more)
A BackPack!

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Great idea, I was thinking about that from the start, there is no reason not to buy more ammo for the one weapon than to have 2 weapons.

Weapons are unique enough to withstand it.

Correct me if I'm wrong but:

In the mod days I think Alex was toying with the idea of a backpack, having every player start with a minimum of 10 slots, and purchasing the backpack to gain the full 15. Seemed interesting at the time.

Well that wasn't an issue then because of weight glitching. But the ideas here aren't worthwhile because the cons almost completely counter the pros. And anything that increases weight for money (past what is currently in place) and only this is unbalanced because weight is the primary restriction in the game were as money is easy to come by, at least in easy - hard.

Bags, Bandoliers, etc. should only trade wieght for more ammo. I'd happily have just AK47 with 15-20 magazines as Commando/Medic or firebug with 7-8 canisters...

...or better yet moar ammo with AA-12...

I like the idea of tweaking. But I don't like the idea of greatly extending people's ammo/weapon carrying capacity. When you're playing at the right difficulty level for your skill and perk levels...in the last waves ammo becomes an issue if its not managed properly. Weapon choice becomes exceedingly important.

I like that about KF, and I think that part of it would suffer if people could either fill up on ammo for their favorite weapon, or have so many weapons they never run out of things to shoot.

These things might change load outs, but in the end I think they'd reduce the amount of variability you see in each person. "I use the DB with 50% ammo increase. That's pretty much it." Or..

I'd happily have just AK47 with 15-20 magazines as Commando/Medic or firebug with 7-8 canisters...

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I would like to see some upgrades that are one weight enhancements, of which you can only have one, like:

-Tactical harness - Weapon switching speed +10%
-Ammo belt - Reload Speed + 10%
-Combat boots - Movement speed +5%
-Air Jordans - Jump height +5%
-High capacity magazines - Ammo capacity +5%
-Reinforced Armor - Armor durability +10%
-Combat Drugs - 3% damage reduction
-Head lamp - Permanent flashlight worn as a headband
-Leg pouches - 2 additional weight blocks (no weight cost)

Just little tweaks that borrow slightly from the other perks, that can further enhance a perk's advantages, or give you advantages that fit your play style.

They're not super beneficial, but they also don't have downsides with can lead to whacky combinations like 100% reload time with a shotgun.

take the Tactical harness with something like Sharpie
you would double the ammo for 9mm and Double Deagles and still have 3 slots for a Katana

Take the Ammo Satchel with Commando
you now have 450 ish more rounds for bulpup and ak combined

Take the Equipment Backpack with Support you could field shotty, hunting shotty, and AK and still have room to spare!

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Yeah, that's why I don't like the idea. At all. It leads the game toward "Why bother having ammo if I can carry 1000 rounds of ammunition for my favorite gun," or "Why bother having weight limits, I can carry practically every gun I like already," or "I like grenades, I carry 20 of them. KABOOM."

Take the Equipment Backpack with Support you could field shotty, hunting shotty, and AK and still have room to spare!

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Yeah, those or he can carry enough stuff and another player to set up a Heavy Bolter emplacement;
http://forums.relicnews.com/showpost.php?p=2417455&postcount=1430

Dioxin said:

I tried to make them as balanced as possible, while still remaining realistic, if you had an ammo satchel it WOULD take longer to reload on average

The numbers were merely examples, to crush the idea based off base line numbers is tantamount to trolling.

I just thought it would be interesting to fiddle with the loadout options and enable further customisation.

so OBVIOUSLY this optional extra wont fit with EVERY weapon but its not supposed to!

take the Tactical harness with something like Sharpie
you would double the ammo for 9mm and Double Deagles and still have 3 slots for a Katana

Take the Ammo Satchel with Commando
you now have 450 ish more rounds for bulpup and ak combined

Take the Equipment Backpack with Support you could field shotty, hunting shotty, and AK and still have room to spare!

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Crushing an idea because of numbers is not tantamount to trolling, it's just being arrogant and dismissive. I never said you idea was bad, I was merely noting that the actually implementation was broken.
But if you want...

Satchel = prolonged DPS for less DPS. If actually balanced it would just turn perks that deal high damage into something closer to a sweeper. If you are metering your shots as a sweeper you don't need this and would be counter productive in anything higher that normal since you need to be able to deal moderate damage quickly every once in a while. Rather useless for berserker.

Harness = basically allows you to carry two of your favorite weapon (ammo wise) Would have to be reduced to 4 units or useless to firebug. Not very great for SS (you get lots of pistol ammo but lose the Rail Gun). Seems terrible (or broken if reduced) for Support. Rather useless for berserker.

Backpack = after patch broken, broken, broken. Right now moderately useless except for SS. Berserker doesn't get hit by ammo (except 9mm and purchased weapons) and you don't switch weapons much so great for him.

Air Jordans... really? We all know the international zombie killing kicks are a pair of converse all star.

Dioxin said:

[...]
With the equipment backpack there would also be a movement penalty which I think the game itself covers based on weight
[...]
Over the coming weekend I'll look at implementing this as a Mutator

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The movement penelty for weight is hardly a huge margin and, if you are in a defensive position, does not matter.
If I'm not totally bogged down with college and borderlands at the time I'd try out your mutator and give you some feedback.

Dioxin said:

Regards your earlier comment of the bonuses outweighing the cons, thats kinda the whole point, these aren't meant as AUTO-INCLUSIONS for everyone, they are just slightly niche applications for certain waves and perk setups. I didn't want to provide must have upgrades.

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me said:

But the ideas here aren't worthwhile because the cons almost completely counter the pros.

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<Krotz>Functional Illiteracy?</Krotz>
I said net cons but you said net pros, although you response was structured a sort of equal balance. My point is that very few perks actually get anything worthwhile out of these packs and when they are applicable then they only offer a equal exchange that you have to pay for. I would have to try it out to get a good idea but I would think that very few people would actually use them.

I would like to suggest a much simpler idea (started in another thread, damn my eyes for not spying this earlier):

- only 1 backpack type
- does not modify carrying capacity maximum
- takes up enough slots so you can only carry backpack and 1 primary weapon (no more room for specials, but enough for an extra 9mm or HC or melee), i.e. 4
- increase ammo capacity 30-50% only for the primary weapon currently equipped

Read the thread. The tactical harness is similar.

With your idea specials fit because you start with 15, 1 for grenade holder + 4 for backpack would still leave 10 for the specials. At 4 units it would be broken because it would be a must have for lv5 support (9mm, Shotty and HS all get ammo boost?), rage with SS (9mm, LAR, and HC/s), rather good for firebug, and still highly relevant with 6 unit weapons (backpack plus primary plus 9mm plus HC/s or katana). Completely useless for berserker.

Nenjin said:

I would like to see some upgrades that are one weight enhancements, of which you can only have one, like:

-Tactical harness - Weapon switching speed +10%
-Ammo belt - Reload Speed + 10%
-Combat boots - Movement speed +5%
-Air Jordans - Jump height +5%
-High capacity magazines - Ammo capacity +5%
-Reinforced Armor - Armor durability +10%
-Combat Drugs - 3% damage reduction
-Head lamp - Permanent flashlight worn as a headband
-Leg pouches - 2 additional weight blocks (no weight cost)

Just little tweaks that borrow slightly from the other perks, that can further enhance a perk's advantages, or give you advantages that fit your play style.

They're not super beneficial, but they also don't have downsides with can lead to whacky combinations like 100% reload time with a shotgun.

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Now THAT is a pretty awsome idea I would love to see for KF. TWI please consider this now or sometime down the road.

[UIT] Akame said:

Read the thread. The tactical harness is similar.

With your idea specials fit because you start with 15, 1 for grenade holder + 4 for backpack would still leave 10 for the specials.

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I provided a guesstimate, the exact number of slots taken is irrelevant, it is the effect I was most interested in - that it does not add ammo capacity to specials and/or that it prevents carrying specials.

So if you're playing sharpshooter and you like the lever action to the point of "xbow be damned", you can have an option of upgrading LAR ammo count so that it stays usefull on later waves.

But to keep it balanced it increases only the primary weapon ammo count, not any other (no 9mm/HC/grenade or any other ammo increase). And it is the *only* "ammo upgrade" item, no satchel/harnes/air nikes or anything else.

So while the effect and attributes of the "ammo upgrade" is debatable, the point is - we could use some shop items to rafine player abilities "on the fly", but I think they would have to be kept simple and only add one or two so that we don't increase shop confusion.

@flying_icarus
My issues with trading weight for ammo were already discussed earlier in the thread:
Weight over 4 is terrible since you can't carry special weapons (certain perks need or tend to only use these)
Weight 4 or under is broken because too many weapons get the bonus or it turn into an auto-include
Berserker still don't get anything out of it either way.

@Dioxin
Perhaps you could code the ammo box (off the top of my head 2ish seems about right) as a weapon and the player could throw it to spawn an ammo box. The berserker could carry it to give to other players as could medic. Fire bug still seems like an auto-include, but it's not nearly as powerful (you have to toss it and run over it to get the ammo).
Unfortunately that seems a lot harder to code.