Melee attacking

[The_Emperor]

As we've now seen some footage of Red Orchestra Heroes of Stalingrad from the games com. There are surely some to question themselves (and each other) how will the melee attacking be.

The melee attacking of Ostfront or the melee attacking of Call of Duty/Medal of Honor series.
The difference is basically animation wise.

As you all know Ostfront melee I'll display an example of MoH Airborne here:
Kar98k 1st MoH melee

This kind of melee attacking can be found in most games and it's also the most common one in films.

And then another thing I yet posted here in a different thread is the animation for weapons which have a foldable buttstock like the MP40 or the PPS42/43.
Therefore I was acting myself with an MP40 SMG to show off my idea.
Please go easy here with me as I can only use a small digicam for recording.

MP40 1st person melee


I personally hope to see the sort of melee attack shown in the first video as it really feels like you're bashing with the weapon, you seem to feel the force and you can see the impact at the enemy or other surfaces.

The MP40 animation (like I wrote in another thread yet) is the result of thinking about melee animation for foldable buttstock weapons at least half a week. So it should be judged as a one hour work. It was hard thinking to find a part that could fit for bashing. As the butt stock simply can't take the forces occurring at the impact. MoH Airborne features a magazine bash. And yet this is not possible cause the receiver assembly of the magazine can't take the impact either. So what part to use then? The right side opposite of the charging handle came to my mind, cause here is nothing that can be damaged easily. And yet you're holding the weapon in a kind of way that is a good one to perform this melee attack.


When writing this I was aware that HoS is "only a alpha" at this time but I felt the necessity of this thread so I started it so we can share our thoughts here and (that's the main idea) give good suggestions to Tripwire Interactive to support them in making a awesome game.

[Zetsumei]

wel the issue is not the charging but rather charging time putting your arms back would be possible to happen in a split second.

[REZ]

..and the hit detection while in melee... that could be tightened up.

[The_Emperor]

Well we've tried out bashing us in real life to have some evidence that the standard bash is faster (and therefore better). The raising up for a push attack with the butt still takes long. One could still hold back the weapon to boost the impact in some way. Tomorrow I might get a video on that, now it's yet too dark.

[Brendan]

I must comment: I own a K98 Mauser, and do find it much more easy to bash with the common "to the side motion" than the RO motion which involves pulling the rifle back. The momentum and inertia of the rifle make it faster and easier to pull back up to an aiming position when swinging to the side. Its also more of a reflex move if you ever stumbled upon a close encounter like that.

[Calumhm]

A RO1 style riflebutt is more ranged and stronger but more sideways smacks could be used for the quick attack with the melee button clicked rather than held down.

By the way, when i say quick, sideways smack i mean like
YouTube - Siren 2 - defeating I.Y. at Nagai's 14:00
skip to 50 seconds.

and the normal, more powerful and more ranged one from RO

YouTube - Red Orchestra - Boink!

no good vidoes of riflebutting on youtube!

PS: I am aware that the quick type of riflebutt can be devastating under proffessional use, but you only play as an average soldier, not as Spetznaz close quarters division

[dogbadger]

I'm probably asking a lot here - but I would like to see a cod style quick swipe when the melee button is hit quickly, but if held down this motion continues into a charged RO-style buttsmack

As for melee with a folding stock weapon like the mp40 - i would instinctivly smash the top edge, rather than the side, upwards to the jaw or downwards to the nose I guess.

It's 6.53 in ths morning, i've had no sleep having come home after a night shift and i'm thinking about the best way to smash someone's face in with an smg. weird.

[Mr Milkman]

I actually used to think that if you held the malee button down longer before a rifle smash it did more demage in RO... I think quick frantic presses should be faster weaker side swings, and holding the button down longer should be a more drawn back powerful smash.... hehe I'd still like some Manhunt esque moves, where you could hold down the malee button when you've snuck up behind someone and pop your rifle around their neck and snap it, letting out a victorious roar... haha.. maybe using him as a sheild too could be cool! haha...

[dogbadger]

Originally Posted by Mr Milkman

I actually used to think that if you held the malee button down longer before a rifle smash it did more demage in RO... I think quick frantic presses should be faster weaker side swings, and holding the button down longer should be a more drawn back powerful smash......

yeah if you held the button in RO it certainly appeared to charge the attack both visually and effectivly with the full blow seeming more powerful.
I agree - being able to do both styles of attack is what i was saying, and would be great if it can be done.

Thou i think phaps any quick 'cod-style' swing should be subject to fatigue somehow, you shouldnt be able to continuously deliver sharp blows.

[The_Emperor]

But I've been asking my biology teacher about the "armor" of a human body. I was asking what would happen to my rips with a side swing butt smack. Her reply was that they are surely broken and a side swing bash to the head would actually kill you if he's not that stupid to hit your helmet.

Originally Posted by Brendan

I must comment: I own a K98 Mauser, and do find it much more easy to bash with the common "to the side motion" than the RO motion which involves pulling the rifle back. The momentum and inertia of the rifle make it faster and easier to pull back up to an aiming position when swinging to the side. Its also more of a reflex move if you ever stumbled upon a close encounter like that.

I guess this speaks for itself.

Concerning me acting for the MP40, I believe it's not that complicated to animate this "special bashing", is it?

[Reise]

I liked the MP40 example, it seems practical.

Also the idea about having different attacks for just hitting the button vs. holding it down was good as well. It'd make the melee aspect (however rare) more dynamic and that's always good.

Possibly while a bayonet is fixed, swift keystrokes will stab, while holding it down and releasing will stab and lift upward, causing more damage?

[Calumhm]

still don't believe sideswing is stronger, it doesnt have as much weight behind it, unless you trained with SWAT and of course CLASSIC BUTT, NOT SIDESWING, (<- edit) has a little range advantage on it. Also a sideswing charge seems much more awkward than the normal butt charge.

[The_Emperor]

Originally Posted by LemoN

try both and tell me whats more awkward...
just moving foward your right hand, being able to get your whole bodyweight into that one push and also support it with your legs while being almost perfectly balanced

or that you have to regrab your weapon with both hands, hold it over your left shoulder, then swing it foward with both arms but not being able to fully support it due to balance?

at last thats what pretty much described both different animations for my tries

Yep. That's exactly the nail on its top. So TWI should take care of this. The sideswing as the melee for weapons with "bash-able" butts and the MP40 animation like in the video.

[Ermac]

I hope you won't be able to pistol whip somebody in the foot to death like in Ost front.

[ThePieSpy]

If i may add to this, id love to see melee expanded upon not just as a short ranged "projectile-like attack" but as a more visceral experience. Imagine two opposing players run out of ammo on their rifles and engage in a hand-to-hand fight. While one player charges at the other, the opposing player hits his melee button right as the attacking player attempts to strike the player. The strike is deflected and two players then are stalemated and could enter into some kind "mini-game" where they have to try and overpower the other player (im thinking of like a shifting off-balance bar or scale type representation where each player tries to keep their mouse centered, if that makes any sense whatsoever ) If one player is successful the other is knocked to the ground for a few seconds thereby allowing the victorious player to finish him off. Obviously teamwork would play into this, for example if one player had a teammate nearby he could simply shoot/stab/hit the opposing player while the two were fighting.

I also think a non-lethal melee should do more than put up some vague hit indicator on the recipients screen. The players view should be noticeably jarred throwing off his aim.

[The_Emperor]

Oh yeah of course! When you got time!

[Calumhm]

Originally Posted by LemoN

try both and tell me whats more awkward...
just moving foward your right hand, being able to get your whole bodyweight into that one push and also support it with your legs while being almost perfectly balanced

or that you have to regrab your weapon with both hands, hold it over your left shoulder, then swing it foward with both arms but not being able to fully support it due to balance?

at last thats what pretty much described both different animations for my tries

I'd agree that a sidebutt is the easier option normally, but I'd say that's not so when you're charging, because a classic RO OST riflebutt is fairly lateral to your charge direction whereas a sidebutt has you swinging it fairly perpendicular to your charge direction, and also (i believe) you turn your body to strengthen a side smack, which is again awkward in a charge scenario. But apon further reflection; you also turn a little to use RO OST butt, but its do-able.

---If someone could research the history of ww2 non-bayonet melee that'd be helpful in rsolving our debate---

Also the offbalancing effect you mentioned attributed to the RO OST butt is, thoeretcally, counteracted by the impact apon the target.

Finally, I don't agree that the hand repositioning required to use the RO OST butt is awkward EXCEPT in close quaters to the enemy, in which scenario one would want to already have rifle raised for a RO OST hit, or ideally use a side smack.

P.S. I think that a jab with the barrel of the gun is a quick attack that could be used in real life, but not being very lethal (it's more of a first-strike-to-stop-them-striking blow) I can't imagine it being in RO HOS

[Calumhm]

I may have addressed the same stuff twice in that last post, but I'd taken so long to write it and edit it; addressing different yet similar comments that I cba'd to re-write it.

Additional:
I think for some weapons a sidebutt is stronger than others, varying with the length of the gun.

[The_Emperor]

So still the remaining question is which butt stock attack TWI will make us use.

[Zetsumei]

i prefer a side smack that doesnt have to be charged. I hate seeing people run in the butsmack animation all the time with ROOST.