Bullpup Backup

[Demonic Spoon]

I primarily play commando, but late game I have some issues against scrakes and fleshpounds...naturally, commandos are weak against them.

when I can, I try to get handcannons. However, this doesn't seem to help much. Even if a scrake is charging me directly and I unload into his face, he doesn't seem to take much damage (hard mode)...until my teammates shoot at him and annihilate him in a second.

Am I just missing, or are the handcannons not very impressive against them? Should I pick another secondary weapon? Should I just switch to full auto and unload with the bullpup?

[Bio666]

Foe beginner, use chainsaw. Pro eats scrake/fp wit knife.
For the record, Im still using chainsaw.

[SpurryMoses]

The handgun is quite effective against Scrakes when I play SharpShooter Level 5. Where headshots are 50% more damage.
If I can grenade him and land a few shots leading up to a charge. Then 6 quick shots at close range usually brings him down.
But maybe no good as a secondary weapon for a Commando without that benefit.

[xjames0x]

Apparently the AK47 will be better suited for the commando when dealing with those pesky fp's and scrakes. So having both the Ak and the bullpup would be a good tactic.

[Sigurd]

I bet ak47 will get same weight as chainsaw / crossbow, so you cant get a bullpup too unless your support.

I might play a few rounds commando if I can have ak and dual HC.

[Meismenotyou]

You can carry both a bullpup and a chainsaw at the same time...

edit

Plus I would rather have a fire axe than dual handcannons for scrakes.

[surfacewound]

The bullpup is actually perfectly capable of popping off Flesh Pound heads. You should simply avoid scrakes altogether with it though, shooting them is a waste of ammo.

[Monolithos]

Originally Posted by Sigurd

I bet ak47 will get same weight as chainsaw / crossbow, so you cant get a bullpup too unless your support.

I might play a few rounds commando if I can have ak and dual HC.

Chainsaw is 8kg, Xbow is 10kg

I normaly play sharpshooter and i am getting rather good at killing sirens, scrakes and fleshpounders before they reach our camp. However, i need someone that clear out crawlers, stalkers, clots, gorefasts and bloats that get too close while i am taking time to one-shot stuff. I find commando as a bodyguard work best for this.

When i play berserk (whos main job is to deal with scrakes) i find crawlers, stalkers that sneak up from behind and bloats are a pain to avoid taking damage from as a berserker - commando rules at taking them out.

We actually dont know, but AK47 will probably be a really good gun vs scrake (and possible fleshpounders before they get up to melee range).

AK47 will probably be 8kg so you can use both bullpup and AK47 at the same time. Before we get AK47 i tend to use chainsaw for later waves, atleast if there are no berserker or expert sharpshooter around to handle scrakes.

As for fleshpounds. If it goes after you. Aim for its head and go full auto until you decapitate it (or you die). If it goes after your partymember, wait until it enrage, then toss nades at it (frag grenades deal double damage vs flehspounds, and fleshpounds take half damage from all non-explosive damage such as your bullpup). AK47, once we get it, might be a decent gun at shooting fps that goes after your partymember though.

So, to answer the OP. If you dont have a decent berserker or sharpshooter in the party - go chainsaw (to kill scrake with). If you do, go handcannon(s) or no secondary weapon at all (you run pretty fast with only 7/15kg backpack)

[Wolfdust]

I usually use dual HCs for backup, they do some pretty good damage at point blank. Best use of them is when you're about to empty your pup's magazine - once you hit ten rounds and if the scrake/FP is still coming, swap out before it goes into the (uninterruptible) reload animation and empty the HCs into it's face.

More in depth though, for the scrake:

1. TELL YOUR TEAM. This is vital. The scrake's health is scaled to be a challenge for however many people on in the game right now. You want help.

2. If you're not in full auto switch to it now.

3. Use long bursts of fire on his face while he's walking. Wait until he starts to dip below half health - he will be on the verge of charging.

4. Reload and just unload full auto in one long burst. Between you and hopefully at least one other teammate this should drop him before he reaches you. If you're alone you can probably finish him off with some injury to yourself this way.

The FP's a bit different. If nothing else is around it and it's not enraged you can get away with running up to it, sticking your bullpup into it's face and cutting loose with full auto. This should decap it. Once it's got no head, switch to knife and GTFO. A headless FP can and will still kill you.

Otherwise however, it's best to warn your team and call for a nuke - everyone tosses a nade or two. FPs seem to have a harder time of soaking explosive damage than they do at soaking bullets and fire.

[WarWithTostitos]

The dual HC tactic is very good, though I usually go with a shotgun for backup. I am constantly shooting all of the smaller ZEDs with the bullpup as a commando. Due to often having to reload, I'll hit empty and switch to the shotgun to take out stragglers. It's always important to remember that each class has strong points and that teamwork is of the UTMOST importance. The way I play commando benefits support, sharpshooter and zerks because they're the ones that are going to have to take on scrakes and FPs.

However, in the event that my team sucks or isn't working well together, I'll grab a chainsaw as backup around wave 5. I use the bullpup to eliminate quicker ZEDs and use the chainsaw on scrakes and FPs. For whatever reason, I haven't learned the sweetspot on FP decapitation while using a bullpup (I get it maybe 40% of the time) but using a chainsaw is infinitely easier (80-90% decap rate for me) to me. At higher commando levels, the bullpup is fantastic (assuming you are good at headshots) for clearing out the smaller ZEDs while the chainsaw gives you a free pass against scrakes.

But in the end, teamwork is something that SHOULD take precedence over you being able to run solo as a commando. What that boils down to is what you are more comfortable with as a backup weapon, be it dual HCs or a shotty, which are probably the better choices.

[Demonic Spoon]

the problem with unloading full auto into things is that you only have 9 clips. On Hard, you'll run out of ammo fast this way.

[Nanostrike]

Originally Posted by surfacewound

The bullpup is actually perfectly capable of popping off Flesh Pound heads. You should simply avoid scrakes altogether with it though, shooting them is a waste of ammo.

Seriously, what he said is all you need to know. Commandos are meant to DOMINATE weaker monsters, not take down the big ones. Skrakes are supposed to be your weakness, so avoid them and leave them to other team members more suited to dealing with them (Berserker, Support).

Also, folks are gonna be bummed out when they find out that, in all likelyhood, while the AK is a good gun, it's not going to be god in assault rifle form. It'll have stopping power, but it's not gonna WTFPWN fleshpounds and skrakes. It'll probably be more along the lines of a 'Takes out a Gorefast in 2 bullets instead of 5' thing...

[Monolithos]

But I thought the whole purpose of the new heavier end-game game weapon for Commandos were to give them the stopping power they need to take down a scrake solo in a timely manner - like most other perks already can do - and to put the hurt on fleshpounds and the patriarch (together with the rest of your team).

I think the AK will deal simular damage to the handcanons, a simular recoil as the handcannon, a slightly higher ammo capacity than dual handcannons and weight twice as much as dual handcannons. With perk bonuses, handcannon(s) will still be the prefered weapon for sharpshooters and AK will be the prefered weapon for Commandos.

Other perks might or might not use the AK, but with a (presumed) weight of 8kg not many of the other perks can use it together with "their" primary weapon (no chainsaw+AK, no flamethrower+AK, no xbow+AK, no dual shotguns+AK). Even if as-good or even slightly better than the handcannon I still think only Commandos and maybe some medics (at the cost of shotgun, xbow or chainsaw) will use this weapon. Shrug.

And if your aim is good it will still be a "waste" for a commando to use the AK on clots, gorefasts, crawlers, bloats and stalkers as they all "die" when you headshot them using the bullpup. No, this gun will be more of a bodyshot weapon (as it only deal *1.10 to the head anyway) and it's ammo best reserved for sirens, scrakes and fleshpounds (the three zeds you can not decapitate with a few bullets to the head) or if you, in panic, need to cut down a swarm of zeds and does not have time to aim for headshots.

[Monolithos]

Originally Posted by emotion666

12,7mm (.50cal) vs 7,62mm

wtf

Ehh... Yes, 12.7x99mm NATO (.50") used in machineguns and sniper rifles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.50_BMG) have alot more impact than a 7.62mm round.

But I am not talking about the .50" rifle ammo now im i? I am comparing the 7.62mm rifle ammo (that have a bullet that weight some 100-200 gram per bullet according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62x39mm) with the .50" pistol ammo (with a bullet that weight less than 2 gram according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desert_Eagle).

I have never used a desert eagle, but i am pretty sure the energy from the impact of a .50" pistol bullet is less, or (as i suggest for the game) comparable, with the energy from the impact of a 7.62mm rifle bullet...?

In KF the Level Action Rifle (Winchester .308" (or .300 magnum?)) already deal more damage per bullet than the handcannon (.50" pistol). This is, imo, correct. And it should also deal more damage per bullet then AK47 (7.62mm). IMHO the AK should deal more damage per bullet than the bullpup and the 9mm - and it should less damage per bullet than LAR. This is the reason i think it fit to give it a comparable damage per bullet to the handcannon ("comparable" being the operative word here). I have no problem with Commando AK47 bodyshots dealing same or slightly more damage per bullet than sharpshooter handcannon bodyshots and that sharpshooter handcannon headshots deal more damage than Commando AK47 headshots. Remember that dual handcannons have a really high rate of fire (only slightly slower than full auto from the bullpup). I have no problem with the AK having a slightly lower rate of fire than both the bullpup (0,10 seconds per bullet) and dual handcannons (0,13 seconds per bullet). Maybe some 0,15 seconds per bullet.

[TheGameexe]

Bullpup's work great against FP's if you know how to remove its head. Just aim at the head and give them hell.

[Demonic Spoon]

Alright, so in general at this point I can use the bullpup on most anything.

The only problem is scrakes. There's enough scrakes in later levels that you can't just unload a full clip into the face of one whenever one appears. For this, I use the handcannon. Sadly, I've learned I can't just open up or I end up missing 80% of my shots. Still ,it does -enough- damage...and as long as I take out the smaller ZEDs, my team can rip up the scrakes.

[Monolithos]

Originally Posted by emotion666

you do realize that dual handcannons have massive DPS and that AK with even comparable damage would be way overpowered

If AK does not have comparable damage then commando will still use dual handcannons instead of AK.

AK NEED to deal comparable DPS to dual handcannons.

AK in the hands of a commando NEED to deal comparable DPS to dual handcannons in the hands of a sharpshooter.

...or it will be underpowererd. Nobody would use AK instead of handcannons if handcannons weight half and have better overall DPS, now would they...?

[Monolithos]

[Taken from game-files]

[AK47AssaultRifle]
Description="A classic Russian assault rifle. Can be fired in semi or full auto with nice knock down power but not great accuracy."
ItemName="AK47"

Look like it will be a weapon with good damage per bullet but high recoil after all

[Nanostrike]

Originally Posted by Monolithos

If AK does not have comparable damage then commando will still use dual handcannons instead of AK.

AK NEED to deal comparable DPS to dual handcannons.

AK in the hands of a commando NEED to deal comparable DPS to dual handcannons in the hands of a sharpshooter.

...or it will be underpowererd. Nobody would use AK instead of handcannons if handcannons weight half and have better overall DPS, now would they...?

Ahem. I can easily think of a few ways that the AK will still be viable as an alternative even if the Handcannons outdamage them (Which they SHOULD, IMO!)

1) Cost. Unless the AK costs $1,000 (Unlikely), then it automatically has the Handcannons beat here.

2) Reload speed. Dual handcannons take ages to reload, even with a Sharpshooter. The AK is bound to reload faster, especially in the hands of a Commando.

3) Sights. The AK is also bound to have better sights than the non-existant ones on the Dual Handcannons...

4) Ammo capacity. You only have 5 'Clips' of Dual Handcannon ammo and firing rapidly, you can go through this in no time. Even when burst firing, the AK should outlast this, especially if the Commando gets higher ammo capacity for it.

5) Clip Size. The Dual Handcannons only have 16 shots. Period. Even if the AK only has a default clip size of 24 (It could be as high as 30, plus commando bonuses), it still has more shots before a reload than the Dual Handcannons. That'll come into play when faced with dozens of 'crap' specimens. Shooting a dozen crawlers with the Dual Handcannons leaves you almost dry while it'll still have you with half a clip in the AK.


So chill out and don't freak out if the AK isn't the highest damaging monster on the planet. It doesn't need to outdamage every other weapon in the game to be useful. And with Commando bonuses, I think damage will be a non-issue against all but Fleshpounds and Skrakes. But strategically, those aren't really the Commando's specialty anyway...

[Monolithos]

I think you totaly missunderstand all my posts where i typed DPS.

For me, the definition of Damage Per Second is when you multiply damage per shot with number of shots in a clip and divide that with the number of seconds it take take to fire all rounds in the gun as fast as possible including reloading.

I think that AK47 will have a comparable stopping power (DPS) to the Dual Handcannons (calculated and balanced with stats like damage per bullet, number of bullets until reload, bullets per seconds, seconds to reload).

Now, having said that... The description of AK47 read:

Originally Posted by Gamefiles

"A classic Russian assault rifle. Can be fired in semi or full auto with nice knock down power but not great accuracy."

In gameterms that DO sound to me that it will have simular traits of dual handcannons. ie a rather high rate of fire, a rather high damage per bullet and a rather high recoil.

Cost. Bullpup cost £ 400. AK47 is the "end game weapon for commandos" and will probably cost more. It is not unlikely that it will cost £ 750 (like flamethrower for firebugs) or even £ 1000 (like other end-game weapons such as hunter shotgun for support spec and chainsaw for berserkers). If you want to compare commando vs sharpshooter it will be 60% cheaper for commando, but so are handcannons for sharpshooters - and sharpshooters get £1000 worth of dual handcannons for free at wave 1 while commando only get a £ 400 bullpup for free at wave 1.

Ammo capacity. Bullpup too only have 5 spare clips, same as handcannon. I see no reason why AK should get more or less than this (for commando it will have more spare clips, but that is a commando specifik perk - same as handcannons deal 65% more headshot damage for sharpshooters instead of 10% like they do for everyone else).

And with Commando bonuses, I think damage will be a non-issue against all but Fleshpounds and Skrakes. But strategically, those aren't really the Commando's specialty anyway...

I get the feeling you think AK will have the traits of the bullpup and 9mm handgun (little stopping power, high rate of fire but with a relativly low recoil - perfectly suited for precision decapitations)...?

I think you are wrong. I think AK *will* be the gun Commando turn to at later waves when they solo need to gun down a 6 player hard scrake, helping out the team to take down a fleshpound that is charging one of your your team mates or for hunting the patriarch with (instead of dual handcannons that they use today).

For taking down crawlers, stalkers, clots, bloats and gorefasts they will probably still use precision decapitations with the bullpup (just like sharpshooters kill them with precision decapitations using the 9mm).

Commando need a "end game" weapon to help them down scraks with. This is why TWI added the AK47. If handcannons still deal alot more DPS than AK [not likely] then commando will never use AK and instead just continue to use dual handcannons (or chainsaw) to get the job done (unless it have some special feature - such as stunning scrakes from a distance or something [not likely]).