New Capture system.

[Zetsumei]

TL;DR version at the bottom.

This idea of capturing zones is based on controlling an area rather than putting loads of people in the capzone. As at the moment, having alot of people hiding at a stone on the edge of a capzone while opponents are all spread out defending a place, will still cap while they actually don't control the place.

I would personally prefer something based on influence like in the game of GO. Like if you have say 80% influence over a capzone you got it. You can try the effect out here.

(http://lyon-shinogi.jeudego.org/simul_influence/)

just click on the plusses of that board and you see how influence goes
you drop stones in turns in that program. Blue is Axis territory, Red is Allied territory and black is no man's land.
White stones themselves are axis soldiers and black ones are allied soldiers ^^
And imagine that the entire board is like the entire capzone :P

--------------------

Now with this there are multiple things that could be added.

- Places inside the capzone that individually have more or less importance. (aka are weighted heavier in the total area control calculation)
- Places that are not main objectives could still be weighted higher than say an open ground, so controlling of buildings of tactical importance would be worth something as well.
- Changes in spawn or reinforcments based on controlling sections of a capzone (like say if you control the bottom 2 floors in a house).
- The strength of the radius of influence could be connected to say squadleaders or heroes.
- Point system can be adapted to promote being in a place where you give a high amount of influence, or killing indivduals in places that have a high amount of influence.


--------------------

Advantages of a system like this:
- No longer people hiding in a corner and capping it.
- Controlling points that allow for multiple paths to the capzone, will actually be promoted as they will help in getting a bigger influence (think of staircases in buildings or crossections in cities).
- You can help with a capture or defense, by not even being exactly in the capzone, but by adding influence in the capzone by say being between the capzone and the streets the enemies come from.
- Allows for more variety in sizes and amounts of capzones, and placement of spawns, one team spawning closer to a capzone is less of an issue, as you fight for the individual ground within a capzone, rather than just a summation of people standing in there.
- Less running around in circles if there are a lot of recappable capzones.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Someone else started a similar thread to this one over http://forums.tripwireinteractive.co...ad.php?t=40735
So those interested in reading you can find some more explanations from what I mean here.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
TL;DR version:


With the current cap system, people cap by having more people in the cap zone, once you're in the cap zone people generally just try to find some where safe to wait for the rest of the team rather than push forward. So essentially even if the enemy controls the entire map if you have more people than the enemy hidden in a toilet somewhere you cap the capzone.

My suggestion is to base capping not on whoever got the most people in the cap zone but what team controls the biggest area in the cap zone. See the pictures below.

So basically this is some map.


There are now some soldiers in the map.


The rooms closest to red soldiers becomes red property the rooms closest to blue soldiers becomes blue property. You can see that even though blue and red have an equal amount of soldiers red controls more of the area.



If say 80% of the capzone is controlled by a team then the capzone becomes capped by that team.


Please say what you guys think of this idea, even if you cannot be arsed to read the entire post or the other responses. Thank you .

[Zetsumei]

I'm a bit tired, so ill edit and rewrite things a bit more structured and logical tomorrow.

[iTRemeN]

I thought of something like this too, and think it would be a good thing to implement in the game.

When you must really controll the area it gets more like in real life.

[Rikharthu]

I'd go for a different approach: not allow a cap until there are no more enemies in the cap zone, or if you don't have enough of your own in the cap zone. This is realistic...you don't really have a building under control if there are enemies in the attic, or if you're the only one there (yes, in reality an area can be controlled by just one man, but it is still not 'strategically' controlled)

If less than 4 enemies enter your cap zone, it would instantly go to "unsecured friendly base". In this case, it would take 1 friendly to resecure it (as long as the enemies are eliminated). If 4 or more enemies enter your cap zone, it would instantly go to "uncontrolled". At this point, whichever team gets 4 soldiers into the area with no opposition left gains/regains control.

If there are neutral bases at the start of the map, they would also have to be captured by no less than 4 men.

Note that I did not include having to wait for a certain amount of time to cap. It is unrealistic. If you have an area under control, you have an area under control. Of course, this could lead to problems such as your last area being capped while all of your team mates are trying to get there, so I'd give, say, 1 minute to your team to try and retake that last area before you lose the match (this is, of course, if you're the defender).

Also I used the number 4 to give you a general idea...in reality it should be based on the number of players on the team.

[Zetsumei]

there used to be a min amount of people before you can start capping in the mod even with this system you can make a minimum amount of influence before it counts as controlled. So one person cant cap a spot. But in essense capping something is completely not the same as it was before as its not a case of just capping some buildings its rather about controlling it.

A capzone in my opinion is not about having more people in the place, its about controlling the place. If you have 6 enemies hiding in a corner and 4 teammates inside the zone covering important positions, i dont think the cap should be owned then by the 6 people in the corner of the zone.

Especially if you want it numbers based without a timer then the moment you bring 6 in a capzone you cap it even if they are on the edge, that is the exact reason why i want a different system. At the moment its about placing people somewhere safe in the capzone rather than truly capping and controlling the zone. With too clear of a boarder of a capzone, where other positions might be just as important for the actual cap like a person just a bit ahead of the zone to stop enemies early.

[Colt .45 killer]

hrmmm im not sure im completely understanding your whole suggestion, i guess it would help to play the game, but yes I was thinking of something much like this as well.

however it is done, i beleive the idea of a cap 'zone' should be reworked or tossed out, when your clearing a sector of a city, its not like you scratch your head and say these 3 buildings have to be cleared, the rest dont matter.

Perhaps if the entire map was a fluid capzone, areas you had secured would become green on your map, your commander could choose to have you spawn anywhere inside the green zone. as you moved further forward, if the land you were moving across was uncontested, it would turn to a colour (grey for gerries, red for ruskies), when you had moved significantly past that point it would turn green. so on an empty map, if one were to get in a vehicle and drive to the other side, the whole map behind them would slowly turn to their teams colour, if they were to stay in one zone it would turn to their teams colour faster ( perhaps even passed a 100% level, this would be the equivalent of fortifying that ground). when an advancing team takes an area which is 'fortified' it is necessary for them to spend enough time with men in the cap zone to lower the enemies colour back to atleats 100% before moving on. any area that both teams are present in is coloured black for no mans land. in order to not be able to use the map to see enemies advances, you would only be alerted to changes in map colour where you have friendlies present, this would make a flanking maneouver possible without being map detected.
depending on the fluidity of the map, it would be possible to create pincer movements and be spawning beside your enemies on a map, the level of possible tactics is somewhat irrelivant at this point though, as this style of cap zone allows the entire map to be fought over, and gives every inch of ground equal value, unlike ostfronts selective area importance.

edit:
after reading another thread another bit to add to this came to mind.

this is where the old cap system comes back in a small effect, if you were fighting for a field with a house on it, securing the house would fortify the area, meaning that the house would have to be cleared BEFORE the area could be capped by your team. what this would mean in city fighting is that EVERY building would have to be cleared, or atleast, every building that was fortified. with the introduction of destruction and tanks, if the russian team had a tank, and the germans had fortified a house, the house could either be captured, or completely blown up and its fortificational effects nullified.

[Zetsumei]

well you can obtain important places with what i said sections of importance, basically you have capzones and capzones within capzones.

Its just if the capsystem is overall more open, you dont need a big capzone. Just like now controlling some spots will prevent the enemies from spawning closer or giving more reinforcements or whatever.

You still have objectives that will benefit the team and objectives to control, the main point is you can choose how to control it. Its just about the basic idea my post of how to control capzones in a different way based on influence. The actual implementation is very raw and can change. I just think that the system of just putting a number of players in the edge of a capzone should change.

I would see it more than removing capzones, generally give more detailing in the importances of places, so within capzones there are some spots even that are more important. But outside capzones you can still gain ground more dynamically and possibly say adapt the respawn points more dynamic.

[Zetsumei]

I edited my first post, to make the base suggestion more simple and hopefully more clear. ^^

[GaGrin]

My personal opinion on capturing points is it should be instantaneous assuming you have total control of the strong-point. Contested points should belong to neither side unless there is a significant numerical advantage (like 3:1). Ideally I think the areas for capture would be fairly large instead of just a single room to allow for actual clearing out of capture locations and the nearby area.

[Zetsumei]

Can you tell in a little more detail how you would like to see a capture system work, maybe with an example?

[sgt.brutal's 2nd outburst]

Have everyone a radius proportional to their achievements in that round (duplicate radius of sgt.brutal, local heros, and the squadleeders). Subtract non-overlapping total radius of the two teams to determine capturing speed.

[Zetsumei]

That is basically the same as influence sgt.brutal only difference with influence would be , that

1. Influence does not go through walls it goes along walls.
2. Influence is a sphere that is eternally large, although changing intensity from the core to the outside.

To explain it better i made a picture. (yes in paint)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Clickable pictures below this text

http://pics.roladder.net/5b851be3d05...9d52ced4c5.jpg (star is russian commander, flash is german soldier).

http://pics.roladder.net/8e733e6f683...08356e0fc4.jpg (red belongs to the russians blue to the germans)
http://pics.roladder.net/88ba6f6236d...4adf9d072d.jpg (red belongs to the russians blue to the germans)
http://pics.roladder.net/75fff52c989...561e146a82.jpg (red belongs to the russians blue to the germans)

You see an axis and allied soldier both in a different room, the allied soldier is the star, the axis one is the thunder sign.

Now the allied soldier has more influence than the axis soldier (as you can see the allied influence starts at 20 the axis influence starts at 18) From that it declines gradually over distance which are those circles.
The allied influence is higher say because hes a squadleader or hero.

Axis influence is counted negative, Allied influence is counted positive.

So the parts where the influence of the allied soldier and axis soldier overlap they are added to each other, if the end result is positive then that part got a higher allied influence if its negative it got a higher axis influence.

So in the bottom pick you can see at what part the allied soldier got a higher influence and at what part the axis soldier got a higher influence. As you notice even though with a higher amount of individual influence of the allied commander it doesnt really control more of an area this is purely because of individual soldier placement. If either the Axis or Allied soldier would have standed to the door his influence would be bigger.

For this reason one of the keys in capturing zones would be controlling keypoints like openings to other rooms, stairs to other levels etc. Which is a realistical way to actually control a room.

(Now calculating it like in here would ask for a lot of processing power, but by dividing a map in a set amount of control blocks, and checking the influence of individuals to those blocks (Influence of player/Distance to block using bot paths), should be quite managable).

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The amount of influence adds to a capzone could be used for a point system.

Killing someone while you are holding a lot of ground, will get your points multiplied by your own influence.
Killing someone even when not holding any grounds, will get your points multiplied by the amount of influence that individual soldier had.

This will give people more points for helping your team cleaning out a capzone, and pushing forward in a capzone. Without losing everything if you killed everybody and capped for 90% just to die last second and have someone else take over the cap and get all the points.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

With such a system you dont need any capturing speed either, as the capping purely depends on you actually really capturing the area rather than waiting for a bar to fill up.
If you have 70% of a map under your influence the entire cap will be yours instantly. Then for the defenders to take it back again they need to control 70%. (higher than 50% because otherwise the capzone would change owner every 2 seconds).

Which is actually the prime point of this suggestion do away with a capping bar, and actually really capture/control the location.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now the cap amount and point systems can always easily be changed or altered, and there are probably more systems to determine what sections are controlled than influence.

My main thing is that i would love to see a completely new capture system based on controlling territory within the capzone, rather simply putting more numbers in.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Note the lineair progression of the zones strength was only for the example normally you would probably need a quadratic decline, because otherwise the capzone behind an enemy soldier could just become axis territory because the axis precense is too big when there are 2 axis next to each other, which is exactly this system tries to circumvent.

[iTRemeN]

Nice system, looks to work really good. I woudnt mind if this was implemented in the game.

[Rikharthu]

Originally Posted by -[SiN]-bswearer

check out the latest writeups and videos......the capping seemed to be a little different from OST and there's this new concept of "lock down" they were explaining. also the icons that had to do with the capzones and enemies inside. note the flashing notifications that "allies/axis are attacking this objective" which are also a bit different

I think (or at least hope) that "territories" isn't the main game mode. Winning because you've held down a place well for a few minutes doesn't seem right to me. The offense should have the time to rethink their strategy.

The basic capping system looks exactly the same to me. I find that disappointing...I guess we're gonna have people capping from the edges again

that is, unless they change it before release...it is early, after all.


And the "Allies/Axis are attacking this objective." messages are terrible. Those need to be modded away, along with the HUD icons showing you where the objectives are. AND the radar at the bottom right. argh.

[Lucan946]

Hmm, this sounds like a well thought out system, and I think it would work pretty well, as long as the squad leader and hero influence bonus isn't huge. 5-6 points would be good I think.

[Zetsumei]

the capsystem in gamescon seems to look exactly the same, although this time with even more info about what is happening.
Lockdown as ramm explains it is primarly a system to make the map end early if the defenders do well, and doesnt have something to do with the capsystem itself.

Tbh i really really want the capture system to change, to one that is territory based and if possibly without intel of exactly howmany enemies are in the capzone. As stealth is completely not possible at them moment.

[{Core}Craig]

Originally Posted by Rikharthu

The basic capping system looks exactly the same to me. I find that disappointing...I guess we're gonna have people capping from the edges again

There is always an 'edge' to a cap zone, and ive yet to see any sneaky unknown cheat spots for capping. What are you suggesting? 1 room the cap zone . . . **/me nades** . . .

Im open to a refute on the above.

[Zetsumei]

The only reason why you and i nade hidden corner spots is because we know exactly cause of the capbar enemy presence meter at the bottom that an enemy is in the capzone. And there are only so many spots where people could have entered the zone, and be out of sight, but that is a different issue of its own.

Sure plenty of times you cap normally as should, and can nade people hiding. But its not to stop hiding thats an extrusion of the issue. The issue is capping a zone in some advantagous spots that got nothing to do with capturing the actual place.

- Like in basovka station often you see people on the platform rather than in the station and capping it while the station is still under enemy control.
- Or capping the radio on koitos, with putting people in the first room, after a while the people on the inside dont have any nades anymore.
- Or the odessa tower, capturing it on the outside while the inside is still controlled by the enemy.
- Or krasnyi contruction hall by only having people in the glass office pretty much, you can nade it but sometimes you're just out of luck.
- Capturing stalingrad kessel's assembly hall by only controlling the room with the burning fire. While the rest of the building is swarming with enemies.
- On zhitomir capturing the krasnyi appartements while primarily having some people on the topfloor in rooms and hiding in the the hole in the wall.

If you know where someone is and got the skill you can always kill them thats not the issue and wont be changed either with this suggestion. But often captures are lost or won by plumbing a big amount of people in some small space thats relatively easy to get to and keep attackers out from.

I've seen plenty of times that people group up even in clanmatches on map corners like the above examples, forcing defenders to nade a single small place and with it often exposing themselves to danger they should not have, simply because otherwise the enemy will control the zone.

Quite often within 30 seconds or so after the cap it would have been taken back in those cases as well, but because caps lock down or the map is ended there is no time for this. Map edges do not have to be super small, and are often actually a good and easy place to hold out. And cannot always be naded that easily.

[[TW]DrGuppy]

Here's what I would like to see;

- Objective areas are large with a sphere of influence that gets stronger towards the central area.

- As players get closer to the center of the objective their worth in the capzone increases. This prevents players from stacking on the edges because it will take 4 of them to offset 1 enemy in the center. It also can be used to concentrate the fighting on a certain location while still allowing players on the outskirts to know the status of the objective.

- Longer capture times. Each objective is an intense tug of war as players actually have the time to call for help or try to locate the enemy.

- Capture meter does not visually change when individuals enter the cap zone. The meter simply shows the colour of the current side that has the objective.

- Capture meter only changes when one side has advantage and is actually capping.

- To tell the players how they are influencing the capping process a simple opacity change in the capture meter could be used. When the player first enters the zone the meter appears and slowly becomes more opaque as he nears the central area.

I think a system like this would allow for players to sneak into an objective without the defenders noticing while still showing them all the necessary information once one side starts to actually start the capture.

[Zetsumei]

the issue with that is that i think that it will shift the issue to a different spot, if the core zone is small as in smaller than a capzone is now, then the defenders can place all their people in that area and only defend that and still always have effectively more people in.

So essentially i think that it will shift the issue to the otherside. rather than attacking in a map edge to cap the map, its then defending in one small spot. To keep control. The issue in itself is not perse the map edge, but capping in a small spot somewhere rather than controlling the area.

However, the no information about enemy precense in the bar was like that in the mod, and i would like to see that back in the non "relaxed" realism mode atleast.

People will always try to find the method to get the most effect with the least effort, and the same is the case with a territorial capsystem. The only thing being that those methods are actually used in real life as well in controlling a place.