Commando balance suggestion

[Hipocracy]

I think that you should add the FN FAL or the G3 to the game and make it a companion weapon to the bullpup so that commandos can play suicidal/hard and not be hilariously inferior to nearly all the other classes. Its also stupid hard to level which makes a large part of the people who play commando just use the leveling maps. and please take into account that the FN FAL and G3 are both weapons that are fairly plausible and im not just trying to get my favorite gun into the game or something idiotic like that

the FN FAL and G3 are 7.62X51mm NATO Battle rifles which are effective at a longer range and have more stopping power than than any weapon chambering the 5.56X45mm NATO round. They are both accurate reliable but much more heavy and have more recoil than the bullpup and their heavy weight leads to be able to carry less ammo which means that ingame people would use the FN FAL or G3 against scrakes\fleshpounds\patriach and the bulpup against the rest.

[Templarion]

I don't understand why people want to add weapons? Why not simply make the bullup a better weapon.

Of course, new weapons would be awesome but I rather see some other changes first.

[Hipocracy]

Originally Posted by Templarion

I don't understand why people want to add weapons? Why not simply make the bullup a better weapon.

Of course, new weapons would be awesome but I rather see some other changes first.

so you want a bulpup that is useful against all enemys? Isn't that a bad thing in CLASS based CO-operative shooters? The bulpup should definitely cost more if it is going to be a all purpose weapon.

[Mallius Insanos]

I've been in support of this for a while.
The new content would help bring some more fun into the game and balance out the Commando nicely by giving him something to stand a chance against the bigger specimens. It would also further said class as the team's rifleman; the jack of all trades who can deal with any situation at any range, but is still the master of none.

[Hipocracy]

Originally Posted by Mallius Insanos

I've been in support of this for a while.
The new content would help bring some more fun into the game and balance out the Commando nicely by giving him something to stand a chance against the bigger specimens. It would also further said class as the team's rifleman; the jack of all trades who can deal with any situation at any range, but is still the master of none.

exactly, i don't care if its the G3 the FAL or any other battle rifle ( if there are more prominent European ones...) So long as TWI listens and considers it, this isn't really about wanting more content (although that would be nice) its about balance.

[Janshi]

Considering how many threads have popped up for Commando balance, you'd think we'd get more consideration...

But of course, I agree. Give the Commando a battle rifle. Preferably, I'd like the whole class to get an upgrade as per Man and a Half and I's commando suggestions littered throughout the forum - reduced sway while aiming on the move, removing specific enemy hunting (or add crawlers to the list), full movement while aiming....

As for battle rifles, all suggested are nice. Another way is to replace the L22 bullpup with a MP5a4 or MP7 and have the battle rifle be the L85A2. This way the modern British assault rifle gets coverage while not having an abundance of bullpups, since that might irk our american audience

[Hipocracy]

Originally Posted by Janshi

Considering how many threads have popped up for Commando balance, you'd think we'd get more consideration...

But of course, I agree. Give the Commando a battle rifle. Preferably, I'd like the whole class to get an upgrade as per Man and a Half and I's commando suggestions littered throughout the forum - reduced sway while aiming on the move, removing specific enemy hunting (or add crawlers to the list), full movement while aiming....

As for battle rifles, all suggested are nice. Another way is to replace the L22 bullpup with a MP5a4 or MP7 and have the battle rifle be the L85A2. This way the modern British assault rifle gets coverage while not having an abundance of bullpups, since that might irk our american audience

I am American and all i want is for the commando to have a tier 2 weapon that makes sense and balances the commando (G3, FN FAL, M14 AMERICAAAAAH F**K YAHHHHH jk jk) also the L85A2 is not a battle rifle, a battle rifle is never 5.56mmX45mm NATO it is typically 7.62X51mm NATO which is G3, FAL, idk what else that is european and is a battle rifle but definitely not the M14 because that is the legacy of the Garand the AMERICAN WW2 rifle.

[Templarion]

Originally Posted by Hipocracy

so you want a bulpup that is useful against all enemys? Isn't that a bad thing in CLASS based CO-operative shooters? The bulpup should definitely cost more if it is going to be a all purpose weapon.

Chainsaw, Shotgun, Crossbow are also "all purpose weapon". After all, you are just killing zombies here.

They all cost less than 800 and the money has never been a problem even at Suicidal difficulty.

Just increase the damage Bullup does and everything is fine.

[KrazyKain]

I'd have to agree with adding a new gun and not upping the bullpup, theres all sorts of guns but only 1 rapid fire weapon? the game needs another assault rifle or submachinegun

[Utarefson]

Originally Posted by Templarion

Chainsaw, Shotgun, Crossbow are also "all purpose weapon". After all, you are just killing zombies here.

They all cost less than 800 and the money has never been a problem even at Suicidal difficulty.

Just increase the damage Bullup does and everything is fine.

Or add a grenade launcher only commandos can buy.

[Skunkee]

How to balance the commando while balancing support at the same time:

Give the Commando the increased grenade carrying capacity and increased grenade damage. Remove it from Support.

This does 2 things:

- Gives the commando a second option to deal with stronger specimens. Grenades are fairly expensive and do substantial damage, but you cannot carry that many of them. The commando is decent at killing heavy specimens now, but is not a master of it.

- Brings the Support Specialist down to the other perks levels. They can still carry a Shotgun AND a Hunting Shotgun, weld doors faster, penetrate entire crowds, etc. They just can't carry a dozen grenades that do a double barreled shotgun blast to a crowd anymore.

Blam, balance problem solved.

[demontrace]

I REALLY don't like the idea of nerfing another class to make one class better. That's a TERRIBLE idea. Instead of making one class a little less fun and powerful, why not just make the other classes rise to it's level?

I think people like the idea of things being added, not taken away. That's never well received.

I like the idea of additional guns, and I still love the idea of crawlers being added to the commando's level up requirements, instead of it just being stalkers. Sharpshooter and Commando are so boring to level up, and not nearly as satisfying. Not to mention, even if you don't get the kill as another class, you're still doing damage. Commando and Sharpshooter actually need to get the kill.
Nothing like having people get pissed off at their teammates during a game that highly encourages teamplay. Damage requirements don't get you upset, cause you're always leveling it up.

[Man And A Half]

Originally Posted by demontrace

I REALLY don't like the idea of nerfing another class to make one class better. That's a TERRIBLE idea. Instead of making one class a little less fun and powerful, why not just make the other classes rise to it's level?

Because KF is already too easy, and making every class as good as Support would require extensive changes to the enemies to make them match.

[Skunkee]

Originally Posted by demontrace

I REALLY don't like the idea of nerfing another class to make one class better. That's a TERRIBLE idea. Instead of making one class a little less fun and powerful, why not just make the other classes rise to it's level?

To take every other class to the Support Specialists level would take a months of development time, brainstorming ideas to make new perk bonuses/weaponry, etc.

To knock the all powerful Support Specialist down a peg by moving one of their bonuses to the weakest of the perks would take maybe 10 minutes to code and a few weeks of playtesting to see if it balances out (which I'm fairly certain it would).

Support would not lose much of anything, really, since their primary method of clearing entire hallways/rooms/streets of specimens comes from the Alt fire of the Hunting Shotgun or popping off a few Regular Shotgun rounds. Giving them double the grenade capacity and double the grenade damage just seems to be overkill, and I really think that it would give the commando a method to deal with the more powerful specimens (The Fleshpound, The Scrake, The Patriarch), without making them effective vs. everything like what adding a new gun would do. Since grenades are expensive and cap out at 10, the Commando would have to use their grenades wisely or else they're stuck with the 'pup to take down the big boys.

The Bullpup is actually quite effective despite what the common opinion of the gun is. It easily decapitates everything but Sirens, Scrakes, Fleshpounds, and The Patriarch. It is VERY good at clearing out the weak specimens with single headshot kills. If the Commando got another more powerful gun, then they would essentially be effective vs. every type of Specimen. Making every class effective vs. every specimen REALLY takes away from the flavor of a team based zombie game because everyone wants to John Rambo instead of working together to survive.

[Janshi]

Skunkee, are you playing Hard/Suicidal? I guarantee that single-shotting weaker specimens STOPS at Hard. I still get headshots on Gorefasts in Hard on occasion, but even trying to do a single headshot on a CLOT is just asking to waste ammunition. The three-round burst still works on the clot and gorefast if aimed well, but there's no guarantee. For some reason crawlers are also very difficult - I did a three round burst point blank into a crawler and walked away, assuming it was dead. It pounced on me a second later. I had a definite 'WTF' moment.

On suicidal, I spent five rounds before I finally headshotted a clot. It was walking towards me and still the headshot would not connect. Maybe the hitbox was a bit off but, 5 shots.

now, consider how little ammo you have in the first place.

Right now, its more economical and efficient to play Support on higher levels. I mean, if I fire a regular shotgun round at a certain height, I can still decapitate a gorefast or two easy. And that's on Hard.

The Commando needs some sort of major boost to make it a viable class. This doesn't mean give it uber-weapons that make it a Patriarch killer. As I've stated elsewhere, the Commando should be the go-to rifleman. He should be clearing mobs and hunting down pesky crawlers and stalkers, letting his more specialized comrades deal with the more major threats such as Sirens, Scrakes, FPs, and the Patriarch. A better rifle would make this feasible in Hard/Suicidal. Also would be such fun things as decreased jitter while aiming and moving and a better running speed to chase down the Patriarch during his cloak-n-run phase. These aren't hard to implement and make the class more viable.

[Skunkee]

Originally Posted by Janshi

Skunkee, are you playing Hard/Suicidal? I guarantee that single-shotting weaker specimens STOPS at Hard. I still get headshots on Gorefasts in Hard on occasion, but even trying to do a single headshot on a CLOT is just asking to waste ammunition. The three-round burst still works on the clot and gorefast if aimed well, but there's no guarantee. For some reason crawlers are also very difficult - I did a three round burst point blank into a crawler and walked away, assuming it was dead. It pounced on me a second later. I had a definite 'WTF' moment.

I only play on Hard mode right now. Normal was waaaaay too easy for me when my berserker rank was 3. Just hit rank 5 last night. My commando perk is at rank 2, bout halfway to rank 3. I pop heads VERY consistently with 1-2 shots on Clots, Crawlers, and Stalkers. Gorefasts take 3, tops. This is in a 6 person game on Hard. I think your aim is off if you're having THAT much trouble busting gorefast heads. With your little Crawler incident...never just assume something is dead. Until you see a limb fly off or a head pop, it's probably still alive.

Originally Posted by Janshi

On suicidal, I spent five rounds before I finally headshotted a clot. It was walking towards me and still the headshot would not connect. Maybe the hitbox was a bit off but, 5 shots.
now, consider how little ammo you have in the first place.

90% of the Suicidal servers that show up for me in the server listing are PERKBUILERV7 or PERKLEVELING map servers. Not that many people play legit Suicidal yet. If you are, your commando rank should be nothing less than 5. If it's not, it's no wonder that it's taking you a bunch of rounds to headshot a Clot. You're not receiving the full bonuses from the bullpup.

Originally Posted by Janshi

Right now, its more economical and efficient to play Support on higher levels. I mean, if I fire a regular shotgun round at a certain height, I can still decapitate a gorefast or two easy. And that's on Hard.

No kidding. Support specialists get ASSLOADS of bonuses that make them superior to the majority of the perks. Of course it's going to be more economical to play support since they can carry 2 shotguns that BOTH penetrate comparable to the crossbow, only in a cone shape that hits multiple Specimens. You're stating the balance problem right here.

Originally Posted by Janshi

The Commando needs some sort of major boost to make it a viable class. This doesn't mean give it uber-weapons that make it a Patriarch killer. As I've stated elsewhere, the Commando should be the go-to rifleman. He should be clearing mobs and hunting down pesky crawlers and stalkers, letting his more specialized comrades deal with the more major threats such as Sirens, Scrakes, FPs, and the Patriarch. A better rifle would make this feasible in Hard/Suicidal. Also would be such fun things as decreased jitter while aiming and moving and a better running speed to chase down the Patriarch during his cloak-n-run phase. These aren't hard to implement and make the class more viable.

You mean to tell me that moving the 5 extra grenades and the grenade damage boost to the Commando wouldn't be a great boost? Grenades aren't "uber weapons", but they do allow the Commando to at least do some damage to the Patriarch, Fleshpounds, and Scrakes that don't require an entire Bullpup ammo stockpile. However, the grenade stockpile is limited so it makes the player think before they throw.

The Bullpup does fine damage in Hard mode, and that's at Rank 2. I'd want nothing less than Rank 5 before trying suicidal because I was getting 4 shotted by Crawlers in Suicidal with a rank 4 Berserker (That's 15% damage reduction, btw). Everything moves super fast and has huge health.

As far as the run speed and less jitter while moving, I wouldn't mind that at all. I still stand by the idea that the Grenade bonus is better suited to the Commando than the Support Specialist.

[Janshi]

Originally Posted by Skunkee

I only play on Hard mode right now. Normal was waaaaay too easy for me when my berserker rank was 3. Just hit rank 5 last night. My commando perk is at rank 2, bout halfway to rank 3. I pop heads VERY consistently with 1-2 shots on Clots, Crawlers, and Stalkers. Gorefasts take 3, tops. This is in a 6 person game on Hard. I think your aim is off if you're having THAT much trouble busting gorefast heads. With your little Crawler incident...never just assume something is dead. Until you see a limb fly off or a head pop, it's probably still alive.

Commando perk is level 3. As for Gorefast, I agree that 3 shots SHOULD kill them - and they do with a quick burst at close range - but the Gorefast hitbox is off. A lot of headshots come off as 'bodyshots' - the blood spurts from the shoulder, not the head. I regularly do headshots in Normal and in Hard I still get my fair amount, especially with the 9mm - but as someone who just spent an hour on Sharpshooter w/ xbow, I can guarantee you, that hitbox is not consistent.

You mean to tell me that moving the 5 extra grenades and the grenade damage boost to the Commando wouldn't be a great boost? Grenades aren't "uber weapons", but they do allow the Commando to at least do some damage to the Patriarch, Fleshpounds, and Scrakes that don't require an entire Bullpup ammo stockpile. However, the grenade stockpile is limited so it makes the player think before they throw.

The Bullpup does fine damage in Hard mode, and that's at Rank 2. I'd want nothing less than Rank 5 before trying suicidal because I was getting 4 shotted by Crawlers in Suicidal with a rank 4 Berserker (That's 15% damage reduction, btw). Everything moves super fast and has huge health.

As far as the run speed and less jitter while moving, I wouldn't mind that at all. I still stand by the idea that the Grenade bonus is better suited to the Commando than the Support Specialist.

Only if Grenade damage is worked into the Commando class requirements. The Bullpup also runs out of ammo very quickly. As you've noticed, the numbers are increased, and unless you have a very able team you're often fighting close combat especially in the later stages - where the three-round burst is a very effective killer.

If the bullpup is going to be the Commando's only weapon, then it needs sizable more ammo. I have no issue with the Commando being the grenade man - I'd still prefer a second primary weapon.

[Skunkee]

Originally Posted by Janshi

Commando perk is level 3. As for Gorefast, I agree that 3 shots SHOULD kill them - and they do with a quick burst at close range - but the Gorefast hitbox is off. A lot of headshots come off as 'bodyshots' - the blood spurts from the shoulder, not the head. I regularly do headshots in Normal and in Hard I still get my fair amount, especially with the 9mm - but as someone who just spent an hour on Sharpshooter w/ xbow, I can guarantee you, that hitbox is not consistent.

That's more of a hitbox issue than a weapon issue. I kind of like it how they angle their heads and make it hard for you to land a clean shot on them. Makes it challenging. Rank 3 Commando is a bit too low for Suicidal, I'd say. Stick with hard mode for now. Another thing to consider about the bullpup is that while the crosshair may be dead on aimed at the head, the bullets have a bit of a spread when coming out the end of that thing. It's not much, but it's enough to make you miss headshots that would land if you were using the LAR or the Handcannon.

Originally Posted by Janshi

Only if Grenade damage is worked into the Commando class requirements. The Bullpup also runs out of ammo very quickly. As you've noticed, the numbers are increased, and unless you have a very able team you're often fighting close combat especially in the later stages - where the three-round burst is a very effective killer.

If the bullpup is going to be the Commando's only weapon, then it needs sizable more ammo. I have no issue with the Commando being the grenade man - I'd still prefer a second primary weapon.

That's exactly what I suggested. Move the grenade damage and capacity bonuses from the support to the Commando. Bullpup ammo is fine IMO. You have what, 10 clips of 40 rounds? 400 rounds is plenty to be able to dish out punishment. One thing you have to remember is that this is a team game, and one person should not have enough ammo to take out an entire 6 person HARD/LONG wave. Survival horror is about conservation, teamwork, and timing; not a huge body count and e-peen.

I think the Commando could use a run speed bonus though. Not as much as Medic or Berserker, but a 10% run speed boost with the Bullpup would be fantastic. Especially during the Patriarch wave when the Commandos job is to be the teams spotter when ol' Pat goes in stealth mode.

[BanzaiKen]

Originally Posted by Skunkee

That's more of a hitbox issue than a weapon issue. I kind of like it how they angle their heads and make it hard for you to land a clean shot on them. Makes it challenging. Rank 3 Commando is a bit too low for Suicidal, I'd say. Stick with hard mode for now. Another thing to consider about the bullpup is that while the crosshair may be dead on aimed at the head, the bullets have a bit of a spread when coming out the end of that thing. It's not much, but it's enough to make you miss headshots that would land if you were using the LAR or the Handcannon.




That's exactly what I suggested. Move the grenade damage and capacity bonuses from the support to the Commando. Bullpup ammo is fine IMO. You have what, 10 clips of 40 rounds? 400 rounds is plenty to be able to dish out punishment. One thing you have to remember is that this is a team game, and one person should not have enough ammo to take out an entire 6 person HARD/LONG wave. Survival horror is about conservation, teamwork, and timing; not a huge body count and e-peen.

I think the Commando could use a run speed bonus though. Not as much as Medic or Berserker, but a 10% run speed boost with the Bullpup would be fantastic. Especially during the Patriarch wave when the Commandos job is to be the teams spotter when ol' Pat goes in stealth mode.

I really like this alot. It's a right pain in the *** for us Commandos to take out FP's and flat out hilarious wasting ammo on Scrakes. We NEED this Nade bonus just so we dont suck up the team anymore and can actually kill high tier monsters. Honestly, playing a Commando feels like playing the "Kid with the Helmet" online. Everyone let's him play with them cause they feel bad, but the team would be frankly better served with ANY other class. And my Support Perks level up almost as fast as my Commando WHILE IM PLAYING COMMANDO due to the ridiculous leveling requirements.

I don't want a better weapon, I need ****tons of grenades and either a 5% run bonus or a 5% decreased bullpup spread like in KF2.5 at lvl 5 so I can do things like not cower in terror in front of the Patriarch with my LAW or pour 2-3 mags into a Scrake just to kill it.

(Yes, I realize the LAW is terrible vs Patriarch, but YOU try killing him with a Hunting Shottie that spreads everywhere with no damage bonus and no run speed increase or DR)

[Janshi]

Skunkee, I've never said that the Commando should be anything but a team player. My vision for the Commando emphasizes that he's the trashman - he is there to keep the little guys from the real killers. The Bullpup, with the latest update, is somewhat more viable since you get 100 more shots, but it's not enough to make the Commando pull his own weight in a team that has classes with strong weapons.

Again, it's all about PULLING the Commando up to a level where he can actually contribute to the team instead of feeling like he's just barely making any contribution to the team.

The grenades might help. I still prefer a second tier weapon though.