Distance to Trader from Spawn

[Deek]

Has anyone crunched the numbers? How far is too far, I wonder? My biggest concern is how the distance impacts playability, should those who respawn be unable to beat the clock running to a far flung trader in time to re-arm. Does anyone know the "ideal" max distance from spawn to trader? I seem to recall 150m seeming like a long way even with knife run, barely making it in time to auto-fill my 9mm ammo before being kicked into the street.

[Nenjin]

Distance to trader is calculated as a straight line. With clever (or infuriating design) you can make 70m seem like a hell of a long way.

My experience with KF-Farm was that distance didn't matter until wave 8 or so. Specimen spawn closer, more quickly, and in larger numbers. While on waves sub 8 you could sprint straight to the trader and defend, by the end there are so many crawlers that are literally on top of you within the first 15 seconds that not much sprinting happens. To counter act that you simply wait by the old trader spot, clear the wave, and run to the trader while the remnants of the wave chased behind you. Distance doesn't really matter there either.

But that's Farm. Farm is flat. When you make the space between traders more complicated, all sorts of things happen. People get confused and turned around. Specimen get confused and turned around. The time to get from A to B increases, and distance in all three directions becomes really really important.

So it's really relative to your map design. What kind of map have you created? What's most 'fun' for your map and your personal style?

My biggest concern is how the distance impacts playability, should those who respawn be unable to beat the clock running to a far flung trader in time to re-arm.

Again, relative to map size and design. But I lean towards no. I like KF when it's more difficult, not easier. If you're doing the standard map design with one fixed respawn point, I would say at least 1 trader should be within "easy" distance. So getting to refill upon respawning would largely be luck.

KF-Prison to me a map that suffers from too much easy access. You can hit any of the traders, refill, and make it back to the camp spot with ease every time. BioticsLab is the same way. It gets repetitive. KF-Farm is good in that it forces you to move significant distances...but the open nature of the map either overwhelms players with attacks from every angle, or gives the sharp ones enough space to trivialize the horde through kiting and bunching.

Remember too, you reduce the need for traders by putting in more random spawns. If you do this don't make them too hard to find though. I think the mapping guide said most official KF maps have 15 spawns in them? That's the balance TWI decided to hit. There's no reason you can't put in a lot more spawns and make your traders more difficult to reach, and see how people like that balance. Personally, I like a little more 'horror' in my survival horror. My heart still misses a beat when I'm smacking my fire button and all I hear is "click click click". There needs to be more of that in KF maps IMO.

[driftwood]

Because number of m don't mean much if you have multi levels, obstacles, terrain etc, I would suggest simply timing how far you can get from knife running for 1 minute from the spawn point to all the far reaches of your map. Then make sure you put the trader rooms within those distances.

On the other hand, I don't know if there's a rule/expectation that ALL trader locations be reachable from the spawn. Even the official maps have trader rooms that you can't possibly get to in time (like the basement one in London, and I'm pretty sure at least one from farm). It gives you more incentive not to die.

[shadowwill]

I was thinking in my map that the traders are a long way away, but in farm i see the players moving towards the trader during the wave to shorten the distance when she opens.

[Deek]

Originally Posted by shadowwill

I was thinking in my map that the traders are a long way away, but in farm i see the players moving towards the trader during the wave to shorten the distance when she opens.

My concern isn't so much with players fighting their way to the trader, it's with dead players spawning and not making it. But ... yeah, I guess that's just added incentive not to die. Only playtesting will really tell the tale, and I'm still a ways away from that stage.

[thrash242]

I prefer them to be far apart, or have significant obstacles on the way that it takes a while to get from one to the other

I don't like maps where every wave players can visit the shop then run to their preferred camping spot for the upcoming wave. The whole point of multiple traders (the mod didn't have them) is to prevent camping and to keep players moving around the map.

If you can make most of the map equally hard to defend, maybe it's not as big of a deal, but most maps have certain spots that are more defensible and if the players can get to the trader and to that camping spot each wave easily, that is a problem, IMO. I think if you have spots that are more easily defensible, they should be maybe close to a single trader but not in some central area easily accessible from all trader areas.

I'd use Farm as a guide. Players must keep moving and can't really camp the same spot over and over, as opposed to BioticsLab or Offices or even WestLondon.

This is all my opinion, of course. I like KF to be challenging, not a camp-fest. If players don't start moving toward the next trader during the wave, I'm not going to shed any tears if they don't get to the trader in time. The possibility of running out of ammo increases the tension and thus, the fun, IMO. The whole point of having a time limit instead of waiting until all players are ready is to add tension and the possibility that you might not have a chance to resupply.

[shadowwill]

The map im making is fairly large and outdoor. I have 5 traders, to determine where they were i zoomed right out and printscreened the map, then printed it out and looked where they should be. There is a little pattern, the pattern makes a zigzag like if you joint them up and it stretches across the whole map. This way when people are heading to the traders, they cover every bit of the level at some point. At the traders i have 1-3 defensible points that are say 20 meters from the trader which players can hold up and fight off the wave once they have arrived at that trader. I hoping this method works, but only testing will tell

[PUTZ]

Originally Posted by Deek

But ... yeah, I guess that's just added incentive not to die. ...

Well yes, but it's also an incentive for new players to just give up because they can never finish a hard game because they die, or because of griefing teammates.

[Deek]

Originally Posted by PUTZ

Well yes, but it's also an incentive for new players to just give up because they can never finish a hard game because they die, or because of griefing teammates.

Exactly. Hence the need for a balance. In a straight line, 150m seems to be a good median (I've done a little testing). You make it knife running with 25-30 seconds to spare on Normal. With any kind of obstacle, the numbers skew of course. I don't think it's fair to leave a newly spawned player with less than 15 seconds if at all possible. I'll do my best to maintain what I consider to be a balance for Normal difficulty.