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  #1  
Old 11-30-2007, 07:18 AM
D-Es-C-H D-Es-C-H is offline
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Default MP-41(r)

(First, let me apologize if someone has suggested this before. I checked thread titles over the past six months, and I didn't see it, but it might have been suggested in an older thread.)

A few mod maps lately have had Axis troops armed with Allied weapons. Pariser Platz, for example, had Volksturm infantry armed with Russian rifles, while another newer map has German anti-tank troops armed with Russian AT rifles.

In light of this development, I'm surprised that nobody seems to have suggested adding the MP-41(r)--captured PPSh-41 SMG's converted to fire 9mm from 32-round MP-40 stick magazines.

It seems to me that this would be a very easy weapon to model--just a PPSh-41 with magazine adaptor and stick magazine, firing 9mm rounds. And, when available, it would give Axis assault troopers and Squad Leaders a real, substantial choice when it comes to SMGs.

I may be mistaken, but the differences between the MP-40 and the MP-41 seem to be merely cosmetic. I haven't noticed a difference in rate of fire or accuracy.

The MP-41(r), by contrast, would have a higher rate of fire than either of the German designs. Its Axis users could enjoy some of that quick-firing goodness, without having to pick up an enemy SMG--but with the disadvantage of having to change magazines more often than their Allied counterparts with their high-capacity drums.

And surely, the MP-41(r) was at least as widely available as the MP-41, which seems to have seen very limited service.
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  #2  
Old 11-30-2007, 07:27 AM
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During the mod days the mp41 was the best smg but i still think that there is a minor difference now although the difference has been reduced.
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  #3  
Old 11-30-2007, 10:16 AM
D-Es-C-H D-Es-C-H is offline
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^Really? Well, in any case, the difference between the MP-40 and the MP-41(r) would be much greater--at least as great as the difference between the PPD-40 and the PPSh-41.
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Old 11-30-2007, 12:22 PM
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If you think about it why should there be a difference in accuracy or rate of fire? It is or was nearly the same gun. If you have the opinion that there should be a difference you also could make random code difference to potrait individual weapons because manufacturing quality is varies.
Imo this would be pointless
Imo the Mp41 is superior in hipshooting (less recoil) but that is my personal taste.

Adding weapons in RO needs a lot of hard work by a team of people!

You need a third person model
a first person model
an Iron Sight model
textures for all these models
animations for the weapon
and the RO player moder
weapon code

Then you have to bug test the toy and you need a map where you can play with it

And it doesn't make a difference if the models look similar
Maybe I missed a step but you should have gotten the idea.
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Old 11-30-2007, 12:58 PM
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And to add insult to injury (as Ketch already mentioned), if we really go there, it is possible that there is a chance to even some "insane" fire rate diffrences just between few models. While yes, they are all extreme examples, good example is the debate of MG42 fire rate. It is possible that it varied between like 900 - 1500 RPM based on invidual model. 1200 is just simple (and accepted) estimate that can be both correct and wrong, depending on the model itself.

You never know what happens in the factories during the war. Original gear (or armanent) can be extremely ****ed up or have some other funny stuff around. Or have some variations you would never have seen coming in the first place.
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  #6  
Old 11-30-2007, 01:36 PM
D-Es-C-H D-Es-C-H is offline
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I don't understand the point to either of these posts.

First: if the MP41 really was practically the same gun as the MP40--if the differences between the two make no difference to gameplay--then why include it all?

It seems to me that the only reason to include a different weapon in the game is because it's DIFFERENT--because it has different capabilities, strengths, and weaknesses compared to already-existing weapons. The MP41 does not meet this requirement. The MP41(r) would.

Second: if it really does take an enormous amount of work to code a new weapon, then why go to the trouble of coding a new weapon that's essentially indistinguishable from another? Because some players like its looks? Just the fact that Tripwire went to the trouble of including the MP41 in the game suggests that you're exaggerating the amount of work required.

So I'm not convinced that adding the MP41(r) would be all that labour-intensive. It seems to me that it could be kitbashed together out of the code used for the PPSh41 and the MP40--much as the actual weapon was kitbashed together in reality.

And far from being pointless, adding the Mp41(r) would offer German assault troopers a REAL choice between two very different submachineguns, with different capabilities, strengths and weaknesses. Instead of what they have at present: a choice between the MP40 and--well, the MP40 (with a kewl wooden stock).

Having these kinds of choices enhances gameplay. Variety's the very spice of life, after all. And since TWI was willing to add the T-34(r) to the German armoury (on "Black Day July"), I see no reason not to add the MP41 (r), which might conceivably be used on several maps.
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  #7  
Old 11-30-2007, 01:41 PM
Sichartshofen Sichartshofen is offline
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This is an MP41(r) for the confused ones.
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  #8  
Old 11-30-2007, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Es-C-H View Post
And since TWI was willing to add the T-34(r) to the German armoury (on "Black Day July"), I see no reason not to add the MP41 (r), which might conceivably be used on several maps.
They didn't. Moz did. Additionally, all that was required for the T-34(r) was code and skin changes. An MP41(r) would require a new set of animations as modified models, as well as the coding and maybe sounds. Therefore, it is not as easy.
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  #9  
Old 11-30-2007, 05:48 PM
Legomann_mit_k98 Legomann_mit_k98 is offline
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Maybe you could get the PPSH as a german gun under another designation (and more easy, because it would work unmodded ):

"The Wehrmacht officially adopted the converted PPSh-41 as the MP41(r), unconverted PPSh-41s were designated MP717(r)."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PPSH
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  #10  
Old 11-30-2007, 07:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilHobo View Post
They didn't. Moz did. Additionally, all that was required for the T-34(r) was code and skin changes. An MP41(r) would require a new set of animations as modified models, as well as the coding and maybe sounds. Therefore, it is not as easy.
You wouldin't need new animations. You could just use MP40 animations I would think.
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  #11  
Old 11-30-2007, 07:43 PM
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nope, then when you did a dry reload you'd have the hand pulling back on an invisible bolt, pressing in an invisible mag release button, then bringing the invisible bolt back forward. at the very least you'd need to modify the default PPSh anims to make it look right.
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Old 11-30-2007, 08:35 PM
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Exactly. Different model, different animation.
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  #13  
Old 12-01-2007, 05:04 PM
D-Es-C-H D-Es-C-H is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Makabi View Post
nope, then when you did a dry reload you'd have the hand pulling back on an invisible bolt, pressing in an invisible mag release button, then bringing the invisible bolt back forward. at the very least you'd need to modify the default PPSh anims to make it look right.
Okay, so it wouldn't be quite as easy to include as the T-34(r). Shows what I know about programming.

But still--it seems to me that it wouldn't require quite as much effort as a completely new gun. Plus, you could use roughly the same animation to allow Russian PPSh's to load with a 35-shot stick magazine.

From what I've read, it became increasingly common, later in the war, to load the PPSh with a stick instead of a drum. Or to mix the two--say, one drum, and three sticks.

(This would also allow soldiers armed with a PPSh to harvest ammo for the PPS42, in a pinch. A rare occurrence, I'll admit, but not outside the realm of possibility.)

More importantly--and this gets back to my original point--the extra effort would be rewarded with extra value, on maps set between, say, the winter of 1941-42, and the introduction of the StG44.

During that period, the MP-41(r) would give German assault troopers an alternative to the MP40 (and MP41), without completely replacing either of them.

Simply allowing them to choose an MP717(r) (that is to say, a captured PPSh41 with drum) would not be as good, because (IMHO) the PPSh41 is the superior weapon. They would all choose the MP717(r)--the way they all choose the StG44, as soon as it becomes available: no assault trooper in his right mind picks an SMG over an assault rifle.

Given a meaningful choice between two very different weapons, German assault troopers would have to weigh the advantages and disadvantages of each, and choose the one that's right for them.

That would increase the fun. And isn't that why we're all here? For the fun?
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Old 12-02-2007, 07:45 AM
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Why not just give German SMGers the choice of using the PPSh? While there were a lot converted to 9mm I'm sure German forces would have accumulated enough captured Russian ammo and weapons for this to be realistic, just call it the MP717(r).
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Old 12-02-2007, 07:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trendkill View Post
Why not just give German SMGers the choice of using the PPSh? While there were a lot converted to 9mm I'm sure German forces would have accumulated enough captured Russian ammo and weapons for this to be realistic, just call it the MP717(r).
Balance issue I guess.

You can already see people complaining about having bit too many assault classes (and they certainly have a point).

Now let's put over 40 player server with increased assault classes and everyone running around with PPSh. It will remotedly look like some random deathmatch. Go figure.
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  #16  
Old 12-02-2007, 01:26 PM
D-Es-C-H D-Es-C-H is offline
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Balance issue I guess.
Yes, exactly. The same issue that causes German assault troopers to choose the StG44 every time. The two weapons are just not balanced. The StG is clearly superior to the MP (even if it is historically accurate to portray them this way)

The MP41(r) would compel German players to balance the various advantages of the various weapons available, instead of either automatically choosing the best one, or choosing between two virtually indistinguishable weapons.

Also, with the smaller stick magazine, the MP41(r) wouldn't be quite the "noob cannon" that the PPSh41 is. German assault troopers wouldn't be able to use it as a bullet hose, the way the Russians can.

(Just as an aside: It's too bad there's no way to model the PPSh41's chief drawback--the fact that those drum magazines are heavy, cumbersome, and a ***** to load.

Though this MIGHT be done by NOT allowing soldiers armed with drum-fed SMG's to replenish their ammunition from ammunition supply points.

Inexperienced players would probably get killed before they ran out of ammo, but this might give experienced players a reason to choose a stick-fed PPSh over its drum-fed counterpart--or to mix both types of magazines, the way the Russians did historically.)
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  #17  
Old 12-02-2007, 03:22 PM
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Adding a rare weapon for balancing reasons is just wrong. Besides that, mappers can already make the PPsh available to the German side if they want to. It's just that so far not many mappers have picked that up.
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  #18  
Old 12-02-2007, 05:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KrazyKraut View Post
Adding a rare weapon for balancing reasons is just wrong.
First of all, the MP41(r) wasn't all THAT rare. It was at least as common as some other weapons that have already been included. So even if what you say is true, it's not relevant.

Second, as I've said repeatedly, I don't want to add this weapon for balancing reasons: the extra game balance simply would be a beneficial spinoff--a not-entirely-unintended consequence. I want to add the MP41(r) because it would be fun. So once again, even if what you say is true, it's not relevant.

Quote:
Besides that, mappers can already make the PPsh available to the German side if they want to. It's just that so far not many mappers have picked that up.
I've already addressed this objection. It would be better to add the MP41(r), because giving the Germans access to unmodified PPSh's would detract from the game. The fact that most mappers have not made them available shows that they understand this.

I honestly don't understand the conservatism I'm encountering here. You'd think I was suggesting adding the krummlauf attachment for the StG44, or something.

Last edited by D-Es-C-H; 12-02-2007 at 05:38 PM.
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  #19  
Old 12-02-2007, 08:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Es-C-H View Post
I honestly don't understand the conservatism I'm encountering here. You'd think I was suggesting adding the krummlauf attachment for the StG44, or something.
B/c people like to shoot down others suggestions.
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Old 12-02-2007, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Ermac View Post
B/c people like to shoot down others suggestions.
I suspect it's much more simple than that: Because the people doing the suggesting aren't bringing to the table the technical resources to do the work. I didn't see anyone saying this was an inherently bad idea, but one that's just not feasible/prioritized.

It's already been pointed out that adding the requested weapon to the game would require new models, animations and code. That's three specialties, probably held by at least three people, plus many beta testers.

The limited number of people with these skills are likely already committed -- hell, over committed -- to projects including no less than three add-on mods, MinionWorkz, and standalone efforts, perhaps expansions of RO:O or, more likely, expansions of other games altogether.

Personally, I'd -love- to get to play with a Maus in game. I know that ain't going to happen, and I'm not going to tell everyone that it's just errant negativity shooting down my idea. It's more the idea that the tank never entered service.

Now, if someone wants to learn coding, modeling, skinning and animating AND start working on this, GREAT. And if that person is making a true effort and gets legitimately stuck, I strongly suspect the community would pitch in to offer guidance.
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