The Winter War (movie) in Youtube

[Bolt]

Well we have to remember that Russians didn't use any other tactic than "mindless cannon fodder" in the Winter War

We do? I thought we have to remember true history, not some standart Holywood bs. The beginning of the war was horrible for Russians, but they did not constanlty attack with those human waves. Think what you want but Russian soldier is a smart one, they've started to use good tactics when they've learnt from their own mistakes.

I can give you some sources, books etc, but they are in Russian (and they are big ones, so I won't be able to translate )

[FINNSS|Marder]

Ok, this is going totally offtopic, but...

Does these places ring anybells: Summa, Kollaa, Karelian Isthmus etc.? Almost the whole 105 days long war they practically hammered their forces againts Finnish "defence lines". They just kept bringing fresh forces throw them to the battle. I could also give you some sources but they are in Finnish and my English ****s. And I'm not saying that Russian soldier were stupid, how did you get that? That is far away from truth, I think that Russian soldiers were good soldiers, but their leaders were just very poor. And they would have been good leaders but luckily for Finns Stalin had crippled Red Army with his crazy actions...

And about that Hollywood bs... Give me a break! Where did you get that?

[Helmi]

Originally Posted by Bolt

"Der Stalingrad", for example, portrayed Russians perfectly, imo.

I'm just mentioning this because I have seen you've used it twice, but if you are referring to the German war movie from 1992, that one is just called "Stalingrad" with no article whatsoever.
As it is the name of a city, you wouldn't use an article anyhow, so I can't even comment on whether using the male "der" would be correct or not

Just a small heads-up

[Kurtz]

I'd still like to read the book, but it seems like the movie can go from awesome to cheesy. The actors playing the Russians in the trench in the second clip or so just didn't seem to care.

[Bluehawk]

If you buy this on DVD, buy it from a Finnish website, as I believe their copies have English subtitles.

The US release is a poor rip from VHS footage with lots of artifacts and something like 40 minutes of footage missing.

[Lt_Kettch]

You could say "Der Stalingrad" but it would mean something completly different. Grad could mean degree or if its written "Grat" it would mean ridge or something like that.

But since Stalingrad is russian for "Stalins City" (? I guess) it would not make any sense.

Ya back to topic I guess ...

[Bolt]

Does these places ring anybells: Summa, Kollaa, Karelian Isthmus etc.? Almost the whole 105 days long war they practically hammered their forces againts Finnish "defence lines". They just kept bringing fresh forces throw them to the battle.

I've read a few books about this subject, which stated that high number of losses (unnecessary ones) was due passive defense in the pockets (because their commanders were quite noobs) and, secondly, because the type of the bunkers were new not only to Russians, but to all of the world - no one before them had ever fought against such defenses. Those bunkers were very good camouflaged and Russians just didn't see their viewports, they didn't know where is fire coming from. But when they finally figured out, the whole "deal" started to go more smoothly and faster, they had learnt how to fight in such conditions.
That's why I said it is not correct to say that whole Winter war was constant human wave - it was not. The beginning of the war - maybe, but not whole.

And I'm not saying that Russian soldier were stupid, how did you get that?

And about that Hollywood bs... Give me a break! Where did you get that?

I wasn't reffering to you, sorry for that, I was saying this, because I know that average Joe thinks that private of Red Army was drunk farmer without any weapons. One can thank EatG for this myth, I guess.

Just a small heads-up

Thanks, Helmi. My German s*cks donkey balls (which is kinda bad, because I was studying it for 3 years). I was saying "Der Stalingrad", because the file of this movie which lies on my HD is called that way. Maybe some noob like me called it?

[aktionman]

Originally Posted by Bolt

high number of losses (unnecessary ones) was due passive defense in the pockets

Yes, if I may add: the Finnish tactics during the Winter War against the Russians is well-known and studied even today. Static Russian defenses were encircled and "chopped up" into smaller pieces by mobile Finnish units. These smaller pockets were called "Mottis" (the link dicusses the tactic in detail), after the Finnish word for bundles of firewood.

[RedGuardist]

Originally Posted by Bolt

I've read a few books about this subject, which stated that high number of losses (unnecessary ones) was due passive defense in the pockets (because their commanders were quite noobs) and, secondly, because the type of the bunkers were new not only to Russians, but to all of the world - no one before them had ever fought against such defenses. Those bunkers were very good camouflaged and Russians just didn't see their viewports, they didn't know where is fire coming from. But when they finally figured out, the whole "deal" started to go more smoothly and faster, they had learnt how to fight in such conditions.

Now I must correct you Bolt. That view is undeniable mostly soviet propaganda. The Mannerheim Line was more a myth than truth and Russian historians have corrected Soviet time researches. The Mannerheim Line was not anything like The Siegfried Line or Maginot Line.


The defence line would have been really advanced and very hard to penetrate but it was not finished in time. So it was badly undone when winter war begun. Though ofcourse there were some strongpoints which were completed and they were hard to penetrate for soviet troops.

Here is one picture of unfinished Mannerheim Line in Summa village and it doesn´t look very strong.

http://images.google.fi/imgres?imgur...%3Dfi%26sa%3DN


Here is some more good info about winter war. Very good page.

http://www.winterwar.com/mainpage.htm

About The Mannerheim Line: http://www.winterwar.com/M-Line/M-Line2.htm#ready

And about the soviet soldiers. They fought with bravery that finnish soldiers were amazed. They surrendered very rarely, fought to bitter end suffering from cold and hunger. They had good moral and were trained well. But the cold weather, hard finnish resistance and bad leadership of many Red Army units made their efforts many times empty.

Bolt, you should find a book by Anatoli Gordijenko. In finnish it is called "Kuoleman divisoona" (Division of Death). Maybe it is something like "Divitsijon Smert" or something like that in russian. Sorry my russian is absolutely terrible.

It tells about Red Armys 18. Division which was surrounded in "motti" to North side of Lake Ladoga and mostly destroyed. Truly terrible book. It gives a very good soviet view on winter war, though it only tells story about one division.

[Rapp]

I ended up downloading this film off bitorrent with english subs due to not being able to find it anywhere for sale or rental. Its a very good film another one you mightnt know about is Come and See set in belorussia during barbarossa. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091251/

[FINNSS|Marder]

Originally Posted by Bolt

I've read a few books about this subject, which stated that high number of losses (unnecessary ones) was due passive defense in the pockets (because their commanders were quite noobs) and, secondly, because the type of the bunkers were new not only to Russians, but to all of the world - no one before them had ever fought against such defenses. Those bunkers were very good camouflaged and Russians just didn't see their viewports, they didn't know where is fire coming from.

You are meaning Mannerheim-line? That was just a few bunkers with trenches and foxholes! An example:


The positions of the concrete fortifications with fields of fire on the "Lähde" -sector.

Sj 1: Frontal firing 1 mg bunker built in the 20's
Sj 2 : Shelter built during the mobilization
Sj 3 : Frontal firing 1 mg bunker built in the 20's
Sj 4 : 2 mg + shelter for 26 men, built in '37, had armor plates
Sj 5 : 3 mg + shelter for 40 men, built in '39
Sj 6 : Shelter built in the 20's
Sj 7 : "concrete trench" built in the 20's
Sj 8 : "concrete trench" built in the 20's

So that was just 4 bunkers, with just 7 mg's in bunkers along almost 2 kilometer wide sector. And there were practically no AT-guns at all. In December positions were manned with these forces: 11 rifle squads, 8 lmg-squads and 8 mg's, a total of some 400 - 500 men on a 4 km wide sector. But eventually Russians did pwned those bunkers: with 152mm howitzers.

Originally Posted by Bolt

...average Joe thinks that private of Red Army was drunk farmer without any weapons.

Lol, a private from Finnish army was more like that!

[RedGuardist]

Originally Posted by FINNSS|Marder

Lol, a private from Finnish army was more like that!

Yep. This is more or less the truth.

I don´t know if any other soldiers were so keen drinkin for example machine gun cooling liquids. Or motor freeze-stopper liquids.

But that´s so probably because there were no alcohol rations in Finnish army. And Finns are pretty thirsty people.

[Bolt]

The book by Isaev tells about these particular bunkers: Sj5 и Sj4, which did terrible losses to Russians in December. The first assaults of those bunkers were usual human waves: tanks with infantry support goes forward, mgs cut off infantry, and without it tanks are helpless against enemy. Russian tankers blamed bad infantry, infantry blamed bad tankers, but then, in late December, when scouts had found out wtf is standing against their lines and killing their troops, Russians overcomed those bunkers quite fast, with help of assault groups and "Karelian sculptors" - 203mm howitzers.
BTW, the very beginning of the Winter war was the usual Russian "shapkozakidatelstvo" - "our enemies are puny, we can take them out in no time". Usual ratio for assault on fortified positions is 1:3, but on Karelian Ishtmus it was 1:1,3. The area between Ladoga and Onega had ratio 1:1,72. Of course, SU had total superiority in air and in tanks, but nobody had canceled infatry combat as well.
And only when Soviet commanders realised, that they are being owned, they have given order to make normal 1:3 ratio. The January was like a pause, when SU was forming its "fist" for the breakthrough. In February this "fist" pierced Finnish defenses, with good temp.


If I'm saying absolute BS, please correct me, because I know only little about this subject.

[Lt_Kettch]

I have seen the movie and I must say it is good. Not the best war movie I have seen but this one is different because its over the Winter War (its the only one I know).

Things I didn't like:

subtitles (annoying but not the movie makers fault)
the constant arty attacks get on my nerves (but I think they are supposed to )
I got the impression that some important parts were cut out (Some characters weren't introduced properly)

In conclusion a good war movie and my first finnish movie

[FINNSS|Marder]

Originally Posted by Lt_Kettch

Things I didn't like:

subtitles (annoying but the movie makers fault)

Are you meaning that subtitles are bad in general or spefically in this movie? Poor quality? But I'm sure that there is something missing because you can transfer dialect to the subtitles.

Originally Posted by Lt_Kettch

the constant arty attacks get on my nerves (but I think they are supposed to )

Yeah, think how annoying arty must have been for the soldiers in the frontline. Russian really used some artillery back then.

Originally Posted by Lt_Kettch

I got the impression that some important parts were cut out (Some characters weren't introduced properly)

The DVD version is much shorter than the original miniseries (as mentioned earlier...)

Originally Posted by Lt_Kettch

In conclusion a good war movie and my first finnish movie

Generally stay away for finnish movies. They are often quite bad.

[Lt_Kettch]

The subtitles were good and well translated as far as I can say but all this reading was quite annoying. Sometimes the subtitles were shown only for a second nobody can read so fast. In one scene they seemed to gorget about the subtitles completly and there was always action going on ... but I had to look down and read the subtitles to understand what's going on ... I just wish there was a proper dubbed version. This movie deserves it.

Cuttin down mini series never works

[FINNSS|Marder]

Originally Posted by Lt_Kettch

The subtitles were good and well translated as far as I can say but all this reading was quite annoying. Sometimes the subtitles were shown only for a second nobody can read so fast. In one scene they seemed to gorget about the subtitles completly and there was always action going on ... but I had to look down and read the subtitles to understand what's going on ... I just wish there was a proper dubbed version. This movie deserves it.

You need practise! Luckily in Finland practically everything is with subtitles so we are very familiar with those. IMO dubbing is always bad idea. Well, movies for children are better to be dubbed.

[RedGuardist]

Originally Posted by Lt_Kettch

I just wish there was a proper dubbed version. This movie deserves it.

Oh my, oh my! Here is a fine example of movie which most certainly deserves to have its original sounds. How many times you have opportunity to hear "old" finnish spoken on Ostrobotnian dialect?

Anyway I believe it would be terrible and most certainly absolutely hilarious experience if it was dubbed.

I have never understood what is the problem with subtitles, but on the other hand I have been practising long time.

It is maybe same sort of annoying you got from subs, Lt_Kettch, what I get when I watch dubbed films.

So I sort of understand you, but in countries where people actually are capable to read (Germany is one of those, I believe), dubbing is a criminal act.

[Lt_Kettch]

I am fine with subtitles its better than nothing. To be honest I am not very familiar with finnish dialects. The original versions are always the best. Anyways subtitles are not the best option of understanding a movie neither are $hitty dubbed versions but learning every language that exists is ... lets say not an option?

(I cannot read, only write )

EDIT: I have seen Letters from Iwo Jima in japanese and with english subtitles and I was cool with that. The Winter War subtitle guys must have done something wrong obviously .