Firing MG42 through barrel of Ferdinand?

[aktionman]

We often hear that the Ferdinand being only equipped with a main gun proved to be a shortcoming during close-quarters combat against infantry at Kursk, but the workaround by the crews is surprising:

[FONT=Courier New][FONT=Palatino Linotype]"[/FONT][FONT=Palatino Linotype]...Major Noak's Battalion 654, who carried an MG-42 on board and, when things got really bad, kept up continuous fire with it through the gun barrel [...] After all the 8.8-cm gun was not intended as an embrasure for a machine gun.[/FONT][FONT=Palatino Linotype]"[/FONT]

[/FONT]- Paul Carell: Scorched Earth, Pt.1, Ch.1.

[thedonster]

I would have to consider that quote as highly suspect. How could he possibly aim? The arc of fire would also be very small as the Ferdinand's gun had a limited traverse.
I'm no expert, but this sounds like nonsense to me.

[mat69]

Paul Karl Schmidt is not really a realiable source imo.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Carell

[thedonster]

Originally Posted by mat69

Paul Karl Schmidt is not really a realiable source imo.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Carell

Wow, based on that biography I'd have to say "not really a reliable source" is an understatement. An SS propagandist? I wouldn't believe a word.

[Zoring]

Of course it would be possible, not good for the gun because i doubt you could guarntee every shot going straight down and not hitting the barrel, and mostly useless because you can't aim, but it would probably help scare some Russians and keep their heads down until at least they figured out where it was coming from and so avoid it.

[aktionman]

Originally Posted by thedonster

Wow, based on that biography I'd have to say "not really a reliable source" is an understatement. An SS propagandist? I wouldn't believe a word.

Yes, Carell's unsavoury SS propaganda background now taints his every claim. But imo this retelling of the MG-42s firing (ineffectively) through Ferdinand barrels does little for German propaganda. Why fabricate something like that? There are more such unbelievable tales, like the one of Stukas used to resupply small German pockets because the supply planes could not drop anything accurately anymore.

Carell's propagandist agenda is perhaps obvious overall in suggesting the superiority of the Wehrmacht in the face of the Russians. But then again, I experience the opposite when for example reading Chuikov's recollections on the Russian drive to Berlin.

Such it seems may even have been the nature of writing on the Eastern Front conflict for a long time after the war- see Glantz's paper [FONT=Arial]American Perspectives on Eastern Front Operations in World War II[/FONT] (btw, Glantz says of Carell: "Although Carell's works were heavily German in their perspective, they did contain an increased amount of Soviet materials.").

[thedonster]

Originally Posted by aktionman

Yes, Carell's unsavoury SS propaganda background now taints his every claim. But imo this retelling of the MG-42s firing (ineffectively) through Ferdinand barrels does little for German propaganda. Why fabricate something like that?

My guess would be this was fabricated because of the lack of any anti-infantry capability of the Ferdinands deployed at Kursk. Russian anti-tank squads swarmed all over them. This had to be somewhat of an embarassment to the Germans, hence the made up MG-42 defense.
I'm pretty sure this would destroy the barrel rifling of the Ferdinand's gun, the only effective weapon it had.

[SheepDip]

Firing an MG42 down the barrel of a Ferdinand wouldnt help at all really, you'd be more effective lying on the thing firing it. Traverse was extremely limited.

[Ska Wars]

Hate to imagine what it'd be like with the hot shells casings bouncing around inside the tank too lol

[Coey]

screenshot or it didn't happen

[KrazyKraut]

If it's your last means of defense, why not? Note how it says "when things got really bad". It's certainly better than climbing out and getting shot.

[Pycckuu]

Why not just fire a HE shell at the infantry? Atleast it could be aimed and have a large area of effect...

[Denwad]

what makes you think you can't aim the iron sights while aiming down a gun barrel?

[Zhukov]

This information is not suspect at all it is widely excepted there were accounts of this from both sides. Infact in most discriptions of the Ferdinand they usually mention this piece of information. They also did not just fire the loose Mg down the barrel as I recall it could be fired under the main gun and was also fired from the top of the tank. This was only done if Soviet infantry got very close to the tank. Using High explosive rounds would be impossible if the infantry was close because of the length of the gun (used Tiger II's KwK 43 L/71), the infantry's close proximity to the tank, (HE can damage tank) or its limited turret traverse. The Stug III f8 in game (as well as other tanks, assualt guns, and self propelled guns such as the Marader) also had a loose Mg on board and used similar tactics.

The idea was that the Ferdinand was to be covered by advancing infantry so the lack of fixed Mgs were not supposed to be a much of a problem but due to artillery, mines, slowdowns and breakdowns many Ferdinands were caught without any infantry to cover them so drastic measures were used I believe battlefield .ru may have a Russian account of this I will check. In the mean time:

Originally Posted by Panzertracks

The Ferdinands were issued to sPzJagAbt.653 and 654 in the spring of 1943. They were committed to action during the great Kursk offensive near Orel in Russia. In combat they proved to be effective tank destroyers when engaging targets at long distances; however, their lack of secondary armament quickly became an urgent problem. Russian infantrymen were able to put several of the vehicles out of action by close-in infantry attacks and, at one point, Ferdinand crews were firing MG 42 machine guns down the barrels of the main gun while the gunners searched out groups of Russian infantry with the main gun sights.

According to Squadron's "Tiger in Action", Ferdinand crews sometimes resorted to firing an MG 42 machine gun down the barrel of the main gun to counter infantry attacks!

Originally Posted by achtungpanzer

It was recorded that some Ferdinand's crews (ex. Major Noak's crew) used to fire their 7.92mm MG34 machine guns through the barrel of main 88mm gun while others mounted their 7.92mm MG34 underneath the gun, in order to fire at the enemy infantry units. Temporary field-made solution was the rear mounted platform for Panzergrenadiers, but it only resulted in heavy casualties among them

[mat69]

Zhukov interesting would be what sources the quotes you posted have.
Not that they have the same source ....

[Zhukov]

Its on the quotes: Panzertracks, Achtungpanzer ,and a book Tigers in action by wolfgang schneider.

Im sure Ive read a Russian account of this somewhere I will try to find it.

now I willl pose a question to you:
If the Germans could not do this then what was the loose Mg42 for?

[mat69]

Apparently you did not understand what I meant or I did explain it very bad.
It's not very likely that the owner of Panzertracks was fighting in WW 2nd and used this tactic. He got the information somewhere else than his own experiences I guess.
So maybe the basic source for all "sources" you posted here is the book by Paul Carell - a reputable homepage/book should state the sources needed for its creation, so that the reader can follow the "information-path".

Such cross-referencing does happen very often, that is the reason why primary sources are so important instead of secondary. Only because something is posted/mentioned very often does not make it more creditable.

To the general question: I'm not sure if they did it that way, I just found the way of handling the sources debatable.

[FatPartizan]

There is a realistic variant.

To cut in the armor a hole for a machine gun, it is very expensive . It simply attempt of firm performed work, as much as possible to increase cost. For any reasons the group of officers advanced this idea. The material interest, relatives, loyalty to commanders? There can be many reasons.

So this legend was born.

[SchutzeSepp]

if you fire down the barrel it has to be unloaded, so an tank-hunter sitting in the open, giving away its position with mg-fire, while having an un-loaded gun... i doubt it.

while the crew could have been firing over the top?
and immagine all the empty bullet shells spraying around inside the tank, getting stuck in the loading mechanisms...

[Helmi]

Originally Posted by seppdietr

and immagine all the empty bullet shells spraying around inside the tank, getting stuck in the loading mechanisms...

I'm sure if the crew improvised as much as firing through the barrel, they would have been smart enough to attach some sort of canvas bag below the MG42 (NB: shells are ejected downwards, not sideways!) to catch those nasty shells.