A Question for the Realism Clans

[ProfessorKayos]

OK...the thread title lied. I actually have a few questions Since the Realism Clans thread is like 15 pages...I will skip the reading and ask directly

First of all...how many of you are based in North America? I see a lot of clans looking for players but never really see whether they are a European based clan or what.

But my main question is this: What is it that prevents clans of your types from engaging in clan wars, specifically, with non-realism clans? Is it the fact that every ladder site out there would require playing both sides in a match? Or is it the fact that "gamey" tactics are used and have no real way of being prohibited?

I ask because there are a good number of realism clans out there but I don't see any playing on any ladders or playing any "normal" clans.

I realize there will be a variety of answers...I am just looking for a general idea

[|9.SS|VonHiltz]

Well for me personally I have over 60 matches in TWL & CAL playing BFV, BF2 ect. ect. playing the other side is not a factor. I am just sick to death of these leagues. Your right that the tactics involved in most ladders are based on cap a flag and bunny hop over to the next one (one reason RO rocks) Tripwire gave Elmer fudd a .50 Cal prior to release and he got all the bunnies out of this game. In realism a good percentage of the Units abide by a strict code of game play that is based on trying to replicate battle situations as close as reasonably possible. Even practices stress the fundamentals of real military tactics eg. squad wedge, flanking and especially the Armor tactics. These methods of play don't really work in most league matches, too much run & gun. We are fortunate in this community to have an outstanding member who shares openly his real life knowledge of tank commanding and tactics. When we do armor battles tanks apply these disciplines. Which for me is so much fun, the winning or loosing becomes secondary to the gratification I get from the teamwork. Back to the point about how our community shares knowledge, in TWL I was hard pressed to find any clan that shared anything.

So thats my opinion on your topic, hope it helps.

[{2.SS} von Halen]

This going to be a good one! I'll take my shot at it.

I've heard realism units described as "reenactors online". Not a bad description. Our units tend to have military organization and weapons allocation, ranks, awards, tactics, and even player's names representative of the real life units they represent.

Our battles, or at least the ones I've taken part in, include such characteristics as one death allowed per round played and often have unequal numbers involved on each side and tactical objectives totally separate from what the server sets as objectives to achieve victory. That lets us tailor the battles to what troops we have available as well as what type of scenario we want to present for our members.

We have so much fun playing in our own way, most of us aren't interested at all in the normal ladder or league style play where you show up in equal numbers and play both sides and use the typical server established victory conditions. Not knocking it, we just march to a different drum.

As for me, I'm here for a reason. I LIKE IT!

[ProfessorKayos]

For those who have not replied to the initial questions, please do so as I would still like some feedback in those regards.

To the 2 that have, let me ask you this:

Would it be safe to say that Tank combat is the best, and possibly only way to have realism clans play regular clans?

Also, if a ladder were set up where you chose your side and only played that side would it drum up any support/interest from your community?

[Mobius One]

Well from what Von Halen said and from what I know of "realism" matches, we typically go by objectives rather than whoever wins first or whoever gets the most kills. I might be able to agree that a tank battle versus a regular clan may be acceptable, but we usually deal with one-life-per-game sorta things.

[Teapot]

It's 80% that we are either German or Russian based and desire to play that side consistently for immersion reasons. We put an emphasis on teamwork, but id say every clan does that because the game design requires it, so it’s more of a matter of how we do it (Squad based tactics etc, what VonHiltz said)

We still find the most practical way of winning, we just keep the suspension of disbelief that we are actually winning or loosing to real life riflemen tactics. This often is a barrier, as the game, no matter how you look at it, is a game. Because there are certain ways you do or do not do things to actually win a given fight. We try to find a middle point.

One thing is the hypocrisy around Running and Gunning, every one of our members are taught and allowed to move and shoot from the hip, we never clear a room slowly because the game mechanics will punish you in default RO gameplay if you clear it cautiously. Actual assaults on objectives are still done as quickly as possible once the assault "element" is ready. Constant movement prevents all your men from being triangulated and destroyed by the next wave of infantry so if we want to win we stay on the move. Or in realism clan terms: "displacing"

This all changes when we moderate the RO Gametype to where we don’t respawn, or we have very limited lives, then more tactics like recon and suppressive fire work because everything is on the line if you die.

[ProfessorKayos]

Still only a few responses...but heres what I think I am hearing every time:

Its not so much playing only 1 side, you could deal with playing both, its the style of play that differs from realism based games to just RO.

Originally Posted by Teapot

This all changes when we moderate the RO Gametype to where we don’t respawn, or we have very limited lives, then more tactics like recon and suppressive fire work because everything is on the line if you die.

Do you (the realism community) have the means to alter the game in such ways? Obviously you can't prevent hipping and all but the 1 life, or very few lives?

If you do have the ability...would a ladder set up using this mutator (I am assuming here) be appealing? And would you mind clans not based on real units playing in it?

[Teapot]

All the Russian realism based units and a handful of German units are creating a eto-style campaign for realism units @ www.easternfrontoperations.org/forums so that we have the style of un-forgiving and methodical combat along with a campaign overlay but to be honest the more outlets for matches the more the community will thrive.

Some units like 2nd SS run unique scenarios on maps like Arad, but coming up with them takes a while because of balance issues and such.

We use mutators to alter the Gametype, but alot of it is based on trust. We're actually testing out rule setups today with 181st to see what creates the best competition and believable play, because really, alot of people died in firefights during WWII and we have to come up with some way of preserving the state of the map in progress, simulating reinforcements, while keeping the battle like I said above. (Unforgiving and methodical)

Edit:

Originally Posted by ProfessorKayos

And would you mind clans not based on real units playing in it?

All of my input so far is from a 11th SS standpoint, but I think the general requirement is that you are based off of a Russian or German historical unit (A rifle division or SS\Heer), have a hierarchy of command, and have realistic names. It can be viewed as sort of elitist, but can also be viewed as traditional.

So if [I] wanted to go up against German units the only requirements stated above would apply in a Russian sense, and vice versa. It's easier said then done, I know lol

[ProfessorKayos]

Well I am not in a realism squad or clan. I am in just a regular clan for RO. There are not a very large number of opponents or matches available to us ATM. The realism community, to me, presents an untapped resource of sorts.

Realizing our 2 will never see eye-to-eye on anything, I would like to try to set up a middle ground of sorts. As you said, any outlet for matches can better the community and that is what we need, especially clan-wise.

Here is what I have in mind as far as infantry fighting goes:

A 'realism' ladder where teams choose which side they are to fight for (based on realistic units not being a requirement). The matches are played using a mutator or alteration of some sort that would allow for limited respawning to closely match the typical size of a force (like a squad or something, I dunno the divisions militarily but what would be like 20-40 men IRL).

That would be the very basics of it. Obviously we can't eliminate hipshooting and other things people may view as 'gamey' and unrealistic. But we can make it more to your liking as far as pace with the respawning, and could possibly limit things like grenade distribution with other mutators.

I think there is possibility here assuming both sides are willing to work together. You guys have been very kind to give me some of your opinions, so if you would be interested in setting something like this up and would like to contribute; by all means speak up

[K.Johansen]

Originally Posted by ProfessorKayos

Well I am not in a realism squad or clan. I am in just a regular clan for RO. There are not a very large number of opponents or matches available to us ATM. The realism community, to me, presents an untapped resource of sorts.

Realizing our 2 will never see eye-to-eye on anything, I would like to try to set up a middle ground of sorts. As you said, any outlet for matches can better the community and that is what we need, especially clan-wise.

Here is what I have in mind as far as infantry fighting goes:

A 'realism' ladder where teams choose which side they are to fight for (based on realistic units not being a requirement). The matches are played using a mutator or alteration of some sort that would allow for limited respawning to closely match the typical size of a force (like a squad or something, I dunno the divisions militarily but what would be like 20-40 men IRL).

That would be the very basics of it. Obviously we can't eliminate hipshooting and other things people may view as 'gamey' and unrealistic. But we can make it more to your liking as far as pace with the respawning, and could possibly limit things like grenade distribution with other mutators.

I think there is possibility here assuming both sides are willing to work together. You guys have been very kind to give me some of your opinions, so if you would be interested in setting something like this up and would like to contribute; by all means speak up

After practicing games with no respawning, I would never want to go back to vanilla ladder play. The game gains so much more depth to it when you play in a realism unit. I rarely bother playing pub RO because its just kind of bland and dull. The game is alot more immersive when you have one life and you actually have to apply period tactics to win the engagement. Also having a huge interest in history helps to make this fun, but I don't ever want to go back to jump-throwing grenades and running around the map hipshooting people, stopping only to hit F1 and check my score.

[{2.SS} von Halen]

Hahaha.. or compete with clans that spend practice time learning "set nades" and such.. come on.. two hours spent in a server practicing where and how to throw a grenade to make it hit a certain spot that due to map familiarity they know an enemy is likely to be in?

I know RO isn't NEAR as bad as something like COD is for such stuff, but it still happens in ladder and league style gaming, and I'm not for that. If it were up to me, I'd like to see Random Map Generation for equal side meeting engagements where NEITHER side knew the terrain perfectly.. or something where the Defender not only knew the terrain better but had the ability to prepare his defenses before an Attacker arrived, etc.

Ahhhh.. but such things belong on the IDEAS forum. For the time being, I'm looking forward to the coming campaign very very much.

[Teapot]

Originally Posted by ProfessorKayos

Well I am not in a realism squad or clan. I am in just a regular clan for RO. There are not a very large number of opponents or matches available to us ATM. The realism community, to me, presents an untapped resource of sorts. ...

Like I said, anything will help the RO community, I'd probably sign our unit up as long as we'd have the time.

[Munkie]

Wow you guys are really hardcore!
I'm concerned about one thing though. I suspect that a lot of gamers are joning realism units which takes away from the player base of regular clans. I think that's why so few regular clans are forming. Or is the realism to culture totally separate from RO players in general? What do you think?

[K.Johansen]

Originally Posted by Munk Polkadot

Wow you guys are really hardcore!
I'm concerned about one thing though. I suspect that a lot of gamers are joning realism units which takes away from the player base of regular clans. I think that's why so few regular clans are forming. Or is the realism to culture totally separate from RO players in general? What do you think?

They must realize how fun it is to play in a realism unit.

[Mobius One]

I think players just recognize that the regular "OMG GET GOOD AT AWP AND U OWN" Counter-Strike tactics don't apply to Red Orchestra. Things go smooth as clockwork depending on how good a realism unit implements its strategy, cooperation, cohesiveness as a unit, and discipline. This is why I joined the 2nd SS unit, I wanted to get away from a "gamer" clan and participate in disciplined simulation.

[Nyu]

one way to look at it is ro is the sorta game that attracts players that are ww2 buffs. so those people then will want to join a realism unit instead of usuaul 'Haxz0r N00b Ownz0rs' counter-strikish clan.

[donk]

Oh chirst, I have seen no one run and hip shoot and completely own, only with the stg44 it is super easy to hip shoot. You also got to have some skill when you do it with the bolts which is pretty sweet, but I guess you guys wouldn't know. I don't want to hear this crap that, Oh yeah, in real life they never did hip shoot. Yes some soldiers in battles did hip shoot. You know when you are in a apartment in Odessa and you look at your enemy and he has his ironsights up and you don't, I think you would be hipshooting too or running away. Realsim units to me is crap by the fact, I haven't seen any good players ever play in a realsim unit, and I'm willing to say that a regular good clan can beat a realsim unit. (i.e. [-|-],{CoreNA},13th,CiA) Its stupid to think that yeah standard clans pratice nade timing and stuff, that pretty stupid and wrong and you know it. I also believe the Iron Crescendo guys would give you a run for your money in your style of play as well. Just reading your realsim is retarded and makes me think you can't cut it in the regular community.

[ProfessorKayos]

Well, I must say some of you realism guys are pretty disillusioned about non-realism clans.

The more I read some of the posts the more I think something like this could never happen because of your attitudes toward clans who choose not to represent a historical unit. A shame really.

[{2.SS}Switzer]

Speaking on behalf on the 2nd SS. I frankly couldnt care less about regular clans and ladders. We do what we think is fun and we only involve ourselves with other people that enjoy what we enjoy. When you get into Realism, you do tend to generate an attitude of sorts, because to us, 'mouse clicking skills' and how many hours you can dedicate to pwning someone just doesnt matter. Like many said before, winning isnt really an issue, its the fun you have while playing in the enviroment we do.
The 2nd SS does things the way we want and we will continue to do that. I have totaly seperated our Unit from most parts of the regular RO community. Mostly due to the hostilaty we have faced for being an SS Unit. We have a very internal community and I think it will always stay that way.
Now about stealing players from regular RO, that isnt very fair or nice. We dont steal anything, its not our fault that people are liking what we do better. And I am totaly proud that 'Realism' hasnt been altered and raped by wanna be clans that wish only to pick and choose what they like about realism. So I hope it stays seperate from standard pubs and clans.

[Athena]

Originally Posted by {2.SS}Switzer

I frankly couldnt care less about regular clans and ladders.[...]because to us, 'mouse clicking skills' and how many hours you can dedicate to pwning someone just doesnt matter.

Once again, I can't understand where this is coming from...because like it or not, the most talented RO players are mostly regular clanners. And do you frankly think they all are ppsh run & gun freaks, only with good reflexes?

That being said, I don't look down on what the realism clans are trying to achieve. And for some reason, I consider the 2.SS to be the most serious realism clan.

I think it would be really interesting if we could have an infantry scrim. Be it, normal RO gameplay or with your rules. What do you think?