RO2 Stand up inside vehicle

You have sitting and standing in the Sdkfz, and in the UC, you have sitting and ducking down from what I have seen in the beta.

The UC or Bren/Lloyd carrier does not have the verticle plate to make 'standing' surviveable, even sitting your head and shoulders are exposed as it is. The UC is not an assault vehicle, it is a tracked truck to get troops from point A to point B faster, then the troops dismount and fight. The MG gunner sitting beside the driver can support the dismounts as he and the driver are low enough to be 'protected' the troops in the back, not so much.
Also understand that the standard German 7.92 rifle bullet was a steel core and 'zipped' right through the UC <100m.


The 251 different animal, the troops as designed originally 'sat' protected till the dismount point with only the MG gunner standing, then the troops bailed over the side and fought dismounted. As the Germans found out the troops in the rear could stand, but other than SMG's spraying and praying, riflemen could not hit anything with the vehicle moving in cross-country or even road mode. Stand up in the back of a pickup moving 15mph across a field with a K98/M98 and try to hit a man sized target 50-150m out.
Also once again the 7.62 Soviet rifle round was also steel cored and could and did 'zip' right through the 251 as well at <100m.


(American and British rifle rounds were lead cored/copper-alloy jacketed so did not do so well against plate, needed a specific AP rifle/MG bullet.)

In WWII, the 7.62x54R round used by the typical rifleman/MG was the L-designation: light ball, not steel-cored. Those 7N1 steel-core bullets were developed in the 1950s.


They did have black-tipped 7.62x54R AP bullets in WW2, but those wouldn't be used by a rifleman or light MG, most likely on aircraft.


So the SdKfz251 should in effect be resistant to all MG bullets in the game.


http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinAmmoID01.htm#Bullets

From my reading both the 'L' and 'D' were issued to 'Infantry' units, as basically they were interchangeable in the weapons of the Infantry. The 'L' bullet cartridge was 'the standard'. The 'D' being a basic aircraft MG cartridge found its way into Infantry unit inventories by mid war, as well and was preferred by the troops specifically for the penetration ability.


FYI post was studies showed the US WW2 .30/06 'ball' ammo standard to the US Army had the ability to penetrate the SdKfZ 251 as well at less than 100m, or spalled to the point of creating casualities in the rear. And this round was 'lead' cored.


The basic premise of the SdKfZ was fragmentation protection from indirect fire, not protection from direct fire even from small arms.

Duly noted, but I think we'll see an MG-resistant halftrack anyway. Kind of a waste of time to code it if it doesn't even protect you from a rifle round. Plus this is how it has been coded in every game I've ever played with the SdKfz.

My education in 'Military Studies' was the study of the logistics of the major combatants of WW2. Logistics wins the wars. Ammunition for all WW2 combatants is a true interesting study as from around 1935 to 45 the small arms as well as ammunition evolved faster than the ability to supply the forces with the correct round for the correct weapons.
Germany was known for standardization and still had several variations of the 7.92X57 out there, as well as 7.92Kurz, 9mm, and some weapons had very specific ammunition requirements, but still units got the wrong ammo now and then. The Soviets had issues with the 7.62X25, since the PPsH needed a cartridge with a little more propellant to function properly, and if you put that same cartridge in the TT33 pistol 'bad' things could happen. The standard 7.62X54R also went through many changes as the 'needs' changed.


The British .303 was very weapon specific, you could not use the .303 Mk8 in the Lee/Enfield rifle, or Bren, only the Vickers MMG. The Vickers could fire the standard .303 rifle round but frequent weapon stoppages resulted. So if you got the wrong ammo...bad day.


True on the coding, I call it the 'fantasy' of wargaming, the Hollywood perception over actual applications.

Back to the UC/Bren/Lloyd carrier. Height ground to top of hull, 5ft 2in, now the average height of a Soviet WW2 soldier 5 foot 6in. Ground clearance 18in so essentially from floor to top of hull, 4 foot 6in, no where could a troop stand and not have everything above his belt exposed.


The Sd-Kfz 251 is only 5 foot, 9in tall, again a 14in ground clearance, troops sitting have top of helmet exposed standing, top blouse pocket button level exposed.


Look at the picture, troops are 'sitting' in rear, look how much exposed.

Well, the way they have it now in the Sdkfz, the players sit by default and I think looking at them at ground level, they are not visible. I'm guessing they are slightly hunched over so their heads/helmets aren't exposed. I sure know I would sit that way, screw military discipline! Standing definitely brings you up higher and you can look around almost 360 to get a better view of your surroundings.

With the Universal Carrier, you normally sit upright but are definitely exposed, so the other option in that transport is to duck down and lessen your exposure. How exposed are you? I don't know I haven't seen someone sitting in the back ducking down yet in the Beta.

=GG= Mr Moe said:

With the Universal Carrier, you normally sit upright but are definitely exposed, so the other option in that transport is to duck down and lessen your exposure. How exposed are you? I don't know I haven't seen someone sitting in the back ducking down yet in the Beta.

Click to expand...

Head is well below the top of the sides. The First Person view is a very good match up to the rough height of where the head will be.