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tank maps?

Well.. Hopefully they will fix the tanks first. I mean the look lovely but.. Well the tank game play at the moment is terrible. Looking forward to the inclusion of more tanks. That probably wont be for awhile though..

I'd love to see maybe an early 1942 tank map. Summer on the Russian steppes? We could really use the range system then engaging enemy armor over 2,000 meters.
 
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the current problem at the moment with tanks imo, is that the vulnerable zones for the T-34 is basically the entire chassis, while the Panzer vulnerabilities are tiny zones in the slit and such. That means a Panzer will generally have an easier time killing a T-34, my solution to this problem is simply giving more T-34 to the Soviet than Panzers, I mean the Soviets were fighting on top of tank factories it wouldn't be unrealistic!
 
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And the above is quite hard to understand - knowing that for PzIV a 50mm armor is modelled - which should be EASILY penetrated by T-34's gun out to at least 1000m, and from close rangle - also at almost any angle.

It's the PzIV that should have occasional problems with penetrating T-34, especially at angle and over 500m, or when hitting some round armor part (turret has some). The PzIv on the other hand is a retangular box build with 50mm plate, and much thinner side armor. Almost any hit should penetrate it... The 80mm PzIV will be another story, but for now there is 50mm PzIVF2...

On occasions I have penetrated PzIV twice from the rear, in the center of the hull, that should completly destroy an engine and probably set the tank on fire, but the outcome was little different - the PzIV (still running) turned back and killed me. Is the engine damage/destroy code working correclty ?? The tank damage code (and crew damage/incapacitation) definitely should be reviewed - based on collected in-game experience.

On the other hand:

IF I hit the engine from the rear, AND the shell flight path after going trough the engine would also cross an ammo box - would the tank explode ? Hmm...

BTW - do I see an :IS2: available as a smile ?? :D
 
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I don't think there is any code that let's you damage a tank engine at the moment, the only thing I'm aware of is killing crew and hitting ammo box causes instant explosion.

Basically the only way to one shot a tank is hitting the ammo box or killing the last crew of the tank.

It really seems so....

But if the engine couldn't be damaged at all yet - then why does my tank get engine damage from time to time ? And instead of being immobilised then - it just runs slower with some funny engine sound ? ;).

P.S. Seems that the T-34 have difficulties in penetrating 50mm PzIVs because of the way the "shot shatter" or "shatter gap" is modelled.

The effect is triggered in game, while 76mm AP shell meets with 50mm PzIV armor plate.

Not sure if this should happen, as the T/D is not bad and the shell is going relatively slow.... BR-350A with huge HE cavity were said to be prone for breaking down, but on much more thick armor plates, like good quality 80mm plate.
Never heard of 76mm shells being unable to penetrate 50mm FH plates because of shatter, or to say it differently, about 50mm plates being good protection agains 76mm shells.
On the other hand I didn't take interest in early-war "gun vs armor' too much.

On the other hand, the PzIVF2 as currently modelled, have chances for penetration of straight-on T-34's front hull plate from 0m (nearly 100% chance) out to 1000m (chances going to 0%). There is no shot-shatter triggered.
If the T-34 is standing at 30deg side angle, the PzIV has literally zero chances to penetrate it's front plate - it have about 5% chance from 0m and zero chances on longer ranges. Not sure if it's historical.

The T-34's turret front plate is easily penetrated by PzIVF2 from 1500m down with 100% probability if straight on, and if the turret is at 30deg side angle then chances for penetration starts from 1500m (0%) and reaches 50% at 1000m and 100% at 600m. All of this despite the fact, that shot shatter WAS triggered on in this situation. Those ranges are for already shattered shell. There is a another "possible penetration window" around 2000m.

The gun mantle SEEM to be modelled as vertical 45mm plate. This would give even easier penetration. Shouldn't it be something like 70mm casting instead ?

Maybe the hitbox plate simulating the mantlet could be broken into few smaller plates (or a "pyramid" of smaller plates placed on larger ones?) with different levels of protection simulating the "roundness" of the mantle? Or MAYBE a round hibox could be used for a mantlet? Succesfull modeling of round parts would be important, as all later Russian tanks (like T34/85 or IS-2) have rounded turret fronts...
 
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And the above is quite hard to understand - knowing that for PzIV a 50mm armor is modelled - which should be EASILY penetrated by T-34's gun out to at least 1000m, and from close rangle - also at almost any angle.

It's the PzIV that should have occasional problems with penetrating T-34, especially at angle and over 500m, or when hitting some round armor part (turret has some). The PzIv on the other hand is a retangular box build with 50mm plate, and much thinner side armor. Almost any hit should penetrate it... The 80mm PzIV will be another story, but for now there is 50mm PzIVF2...

On occasions I have penetrated PzIV twice from the rear, in the center of the hull, that should completly destroy an engine and probably set the tank on fire, but the outcome was little different - the PzIV (still running) turned back and killed me. Is the engine damage/destroy code working correclty ?? The tank damage code (and crew damage/incapacitation) definitely should be reviewed - based on collected in-game experience.

On the other hand:

IF I hit the engine from the rear, AND the shell flight path after going trough the engine would also cross an ammo box - would the tank explode ? Hmm...

BTW - do I see an :IS2: available as a smile ?? :D

Dude, please check your facts. There were no 80mm or 50mm PzIV's. Panzer IV version A to F1 had a short 75mm gun (like on the RO1 Leningrad map) and Panzer IV version F2 to J had a long 75mm maingun. It is true that the PzIV had difficulties penetrating the T34's armor, but only at long ranges. At ranges around 200-300m, both the T34 and the PzIV could basically penetrate their counterparts armor with one hit.
 
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Tank Maps - Battle of Chir River...

Tank Maps - Battle of Chir River...

Making a tank map for any one of the German Stalingrad, and Stalingrad Relief Efforts would be welcome, such as:

Battles for the Chir River, December 1942, which involved 11 Pz Div., 48 Pz Corps, 11 Pz Div. and so on...

Balck's Counter-attack, December 19 1942

Battle of State Farm 79

Plenty of open ground tank country battlin'

And there's always The Battles for R. Aksay I, II, and III.

All involve heavy employment of armor from both sides.

As is the Pz IVs run pretty well. The crew chat is more than irratating, and it would be good to have an option to disable that. Personally it doesn't make the game more realistic, hearing "We've been hit" when I'm not even in action, or "Everythings working fine Panzerfuhrer" gets annoying - it would be nice to leave those guys by the side of the road for the Russian partisans torture, and kill.

Seriously, the PZ IV works pretty well, though when playing as a Russian the T-34 you have a life expectance of 23 seconds till you're off to meet your maker (which is fine if you're German, then we're quite happy about that, as there is no better place than to send Ivan and his friends, than to meet their makers).

Of any mods and improvements, tanks and tank maps need it the most, as is, few like to play the tanks because of the current issues. And while you're at it, when time and modelers become available to work on other tanks, any that were there would be most welcome...

German Tank strength (Stalingrad) as of 13 September 1942:

25 x Panzer II's

110 x Panzer III ("L" long-barrel)

15 x Panzer III short-barrel

24 x Panzer IV long-barrel

8 x Panzer IV short-barrel

5 x Panzerbefehlswagen (Command Panzers)

187 Total Panzers

This of corse does not include those panzers in either of the relief attempts. Also consider that these numbers are only accurate for 1942 and not with those at the end of the Stalingrad battle of Feb 1943, nevertheless it gives you an idea what was there when it all began.

I have no official count for the Russian armor at either Stalingrad, the encirclement, or the counter-measures against the German relief attampts. However, if you read 'Panzer Battles' by Major-General von Mellethin, he well mentions the many Russian tank units, brigades, etc. There were many!
 
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Interesting. So the long-barreled PzIVs were small in numbers then and I suppose still seen as an "extra" and precious, their current "super-weapon".

Long barreled PzIV when they first showed up in 1942, were welcomed as enthusiastic, as the Tigers in 1943 :). Big performance boost, very effective agains T-34s (at last). Basically PAK40 performance on tracks :).


And the Russian strength ?

---> elrond:

Dude, please check your facts. There were no 80mm or 50mm PzIV's. Panzer IV version A to F1 had a short 75mm gun (like on the RO1 Leningrad map) and Panzer IV version F2 to J had a long 75mm maingun.

And what made you thinking I was talking about the gun cal ? I was talking about the PzIV armour thickness.

It is true that the PzIV had difficulties penetrating the T34's armor, but only at long ranges. At ranges around 200-300m, both the T34 and the PzIV could basically penetrate their counterparts armor with one hit.

True, so both tanks present in the game should have no difficulties killing each-other at ranges under about 1000m. An angled T-34 could sometimes be a problem. But angling would not help much an 50mm armored PIV against T-34's 76mm gun. And it's exactly what I wrote previously.

An PzIVF2 really is the same thing as an early PzIVG. Same tank, different names, IIRC.

Now, let's talk about maps. I do not like the Gumrak, too.
 
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