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MGs a bit underperforming?

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#161
6S.Tamat said:
here it is a video that let see how the mg is really more stable of the ingame one.
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That's because the one in the video is a crew served tripod mounted heavy machine gun variant of the MG-34. You do not have one of those when you are running around. If you are talking about the fixed emplacements then I dunno. I've never used them. They are death traps.

it was the main fire of a team, with the purpose of beeing able to control a zone hundreds of meters away.
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No, what you are looking at is the kind of gun a support platoon uses. They do not run around with the infantry platoons, they stay back and use mortars and these kinds of heavy MG's to provide long range sustained fire support.

Not even the fixed map MG's are really set up like that. They are far too close to the battle, and far too exposed. No MG on a tripod is ever set up within grenade range of the enemy. That's just suicide.

Control a zone is meaning placing enough bullets to let the enemy get pinned or avoid to move in that area:
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No, no, no! You have to KILL anyone that tries to move in that area. Shooting dirt doesn't "control" anything. When a MG is using suppressive fire, he doesn't just spray in the general direction of the enemy, he specifically and intentionally tries to shoot everything that moves. THAT is what causes people to not want to move. If you miss they think they were lucky. If you KEEP missing, they will think you suck and will pop up and kill you.

The same thing happens in the real world, because there is no such thing as "suppression" in the real world.

if i place less bullets with an mg than seven rifleman shooting in the same time i would give a rifle also to the mg soldiers and the two that were bringing the ammo.
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You think the gunners role is to shoot as many bullets as possible as quickly as possible with no real effect? There's your problem.

That WAS NOT in the reality: the rifleman actually were not the one firing alot
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You do know rifles can do suppressive fire too, don't you? You do know that a machine gunner can be "suppressed" just as easily as a rifleman, don't you? There is nothing special about the bullets you fire. If they don't hit, they don't hurt, just like the rifleman's bullet.

The point of a machine gunner is to replace a whole platoon of riflemen with one man. It's called a force multiplier. It's not that you have a special weapon that kills further away or more easily, its about being able to fire as many bullets as the rest of your squad combined.

The reason for this is that the guys who put the most rounds on target quickest usually win, whether you are talking about a MG or SMG. The trick is putting the rounds ON TARGET, rather than turning trees into firewood.

That's why in Iraq and Afghanistan the first man through the door when clearing a room is usually the gunner. When HE walks through the door, it's like the whole squad came in guns blazing at the same time.

were the ones moving alot for flanking the enemy and shoot at short (less than 500 meters) distancies.
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Guess what? I have yet to see a map where you can get a 500m shot. Think about it. What you are talking about are the weapons that wouldn't even be ON these maps, because they would be further away from the battle than the maps extend.

The thing is, you are confusing several different but related roles and trying to say the MG in game can't do all of them. It's the same as confusing the rifleman and marksman role and complaining that the rifleman can't shoot as far because of the sights and therefore saying the rifleman is unrealistic.

You simply do not know what the reality is. That's why it SEEMS unrealistic.

Heavy MG's on a tripod in a supporting role can reach out and kill you a mile away. Then they will kill all your mates too.

But if you are within grenade range, you WILL win, every time, simply because a heavy tripod mounted MG is more like an artillery piece than a machine gun the way you think of them. You use optical and sometimes periscopic sights to aim, and gears and levers to traverse. The tripod specifically LOCKS so that the gun doesn't swing freely. This is what allows it to be so accurate so far away. So all you have to do is step off to the side, and by the time the gunner has unlocked and traversed the gun, you will have killed him.

That's why they have a whole platoon of guys to run maybe 6 guns. Some are there to help move the damn things, some to run enough ammo around so they can keep firing, and some to cover their *** while they try to bug out, if the enemy gets too close.

It's a whole other kind of war.

That is why they stay so far away. They want to kill you LONG before you ever have even a chance of killing them. That is NOT possible in this game. The maps are just too small.
 
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#162
If were playing infantry on, say, Gumrak, that would be the engagement ranges people are expecting an MG with a tripod to dominate at. And those are exactly the kinds of maps we DONT get to play as infantry.

When the modders get their hands on the SDK, I expect we'll see maps design to give MGs a distinct advantage. Maybe TWI will even put out a few really open infantry maps. As of now, though, people need to adjust their expectations of the MG, because they are blown way out of proportion.
 
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#163
Coreldan said:
As for their defense, you can't basically deploy the MGs to those very obvious spots so that the MG sticks out of the window. Even if there would be a suitable height table or anything in the middle of the room, don't even think about deploying on it.

So you are left with just windows nobody would expect you to be at and/or prone deploying it somewhere.
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Not quite. I've had success deploying them in windows without being killed, but you need to duck often and move to a new spot fairly often as well.
 
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#164
Derpus said:
Not quite. I've had success deploying them in windows without being killed, but you need to duck often and move to a new spot fairly often as well.
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I never claimed anything what you seem to be implying either. I play as a machine gunner probably half of the time I play and most of the time I am deployed on windows too cos there are very little options - in fact the only option is to prone.

I was just saying that there really is not much options for "better tactics" when the game simply wont allow you to deploy on anything the devs didn't define as a deployable surface. If you were able to deploy on a table further back in the room, you would probably double your effectiveness as a machinegunner. I believe this was doable in ROOST, but not in RO2. Hopefully this would change.
 
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#167
Jammybee said:
I have never seen or used a machine gun in a situation where a braced MP40 woudln't of been superior. In a game where ~60% of players have railguns, mobility is king.
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>Railguns

Sweet Jesus have any of you ever shot a gun before?

Welcome to warfare. In CQC situations like most of these maps, mobility IS king. Stay still and die. Run and gun like an idiot and die. Be smart, keep your head down, be stealthy, and survive.

Is this really that hard to get in your noggin?
 
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#168
Atomskytten said:
Some posters in this thread really need to use a far less aggresive tone and drop the patronising bs.

This forum is not just for a few self proclaimed 'gurus' and 'experts' but for everyone.
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Some other posters might be better off actually saying what they mean rather than pussy-footing around with passive aggressive insults. I can take it.

You're right, My tone does get aggressive at times. It's when people do something, suck at it, then blame the tools for it. Even THEY know they have no idea at all, but "blame the game" is all they can do, and still feel some sort of self-respect.

That pisses me off. I totally suck with sniper rifles. Can't hit a damn thing and get killed constantly. Nothing to do with the rifles, and everything to do with I just don't like playing the way you have to play to succeed as a sniper. I sure as hell don't try to tell guys who own up with the sniper what is wrong with their weapons. And if a sniper comes in to tell me what I am doing wrong, I sure as hell don't argue with him. I take notes and try it out. If it doesn't work for me, then I do not assume it's the game's fault. I asume I'm just not good enough.

It's like how people assume if you are good, you're cheating. You can't possibly be better than me, so you MUST be cheating. It's a lame and nasty thing to do, really.

I am simply trying to defend the game from "haters" - people who have no idea, but think that is TWI's fault. Sorry if you were offended by my posts. I was offended by theirs.
 
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#169
Josef Nader said:
>Railguns

Sweet Jesus have any of you ever shot a gun before?

Welcome to warfare. In CQC situations like most of these maps, mobility IS king. Stay still and die. Run and gun like an idiot and die. Be smart, keep your head down, be stealthy, and survive.

Is this really that hard to get in your noggin?
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Haha, Im sure the average soldier from WWII could snap shoot a moving target from 200 yards, in battlefield conditions. You don't need to get aggresive, I am not criticising the game, I was just pointing out that MGs are pointless when the mp40 exists in its current form.
 
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#170
Nenjin said:
Or not, because half the time that's the edges of the map
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Or it can be in the middle of an empty field. As long as no one expects you to be there, they won't be looking for you there until well after you've killed a few of them. By that time you should be gone.

Once again, stop thinking about stopping and camping. You simply can not do that for any length of time and survive AND have any real effect on the battle. All you end up doing is waiting for the battle to come back to you, and well, that's only because your team is losing.

On the first point of Red Oktober, is one place where to me it's acceptable to hole up with your whole team and use that MG aggressively.
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How can you use the MG aggressively if you are holed up somewhere? If you don't move, all the enemy has to do is avoid you or arty you. You will keep that field empty, but what has that accomplished? Nothing.

The attackers are trying to seize ground. The defenders are trying to push them back. No one is trying to stay right where they are and keep shooting indefinitely. Not if they have any sense at all.

Because you're constantly looking down into the Russian spawn point from several angles....
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Oh, I see, you're talking about spawn camping which is totally unrealistic. So yeah, sure you can sit and camp a spawn point and kill everyone just as they spawn. You could do it with a pistol. Lucky this is just a game and HAS respawns, isn't it?

The point is, this game is so realistic, you have to forget the way FPS games are played and learn how REAL battles are fought. Stuff that works in most games not only doesn't work here, it makes you an easy target.

The number of times I've come into a house and found 4 guys staring out a window each, not one of them aware I am going around and bayonetting every one of their mates one at a time, is not even funny. Hell, even the kill feed is filling up rapidly with the names of the guys who were right beside them, and still they never turn around and even CHECK to see if anything might be behind them. Their mates are dying all around them, and still they are camping waiting for that perfect shot.... Then crying when they die.

With so many players like that around, I can get away with murder, and it doesn't matter what weapon I use.
 
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#173
Coreldan said:
Lol, reminds me of one time in Spartanovka (spelling?) when I just respawned and managed to run the church to defend as a ruskie and saw that suddenly like 4 germans start rushing from the bushes towards the church.
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I had a similar situation as the gunner near that church, except I had just sprinted to the end of the wall, went prone, and then rotated around to see behind the wall. There were 4 enemy all covered, and thus not able to move quickly. But they sure did die quick.

THAT is how you assault with an MG :p
 
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#174
Derpus said:
Not quite. I've had success deploying them in windows without being killed, but you need to duck often and move to a new spot fairly often as well.
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That's only because the guys who were shooting at you didn't know what they were doing either. I would have waited for you to crouch and shot you through the wall, or put a bullet in the top of your head. The cover system doesn't give you complete cover. It leaves a bit of your head exposed. Do not trust it.

Apart from that, what if an enemy somehow walks into the room behind you? If you are using the cover mechanic, you are dead. There is a delay between getting out of cover and being able to fire. In that delay, someone like me will have killed you, even by melee.

Stay mobile. Don't fix yourself to something if you can help it. Sometimes if there is a rifleman who is getting close to hitting you, you can simply move a little sideways to get out of the line of fire, but move back again to take a shot when he bolts the rifle between shots. I get a lot of kills that way. The guy is so fixated on killing me, he forgets that I can kill him too and just stands there shooting at me. That's what far too many gunners do too.

If I can shoot you, you can shoot me, so I better shoot first and more accurately. The key is to make it as easy as possible for you to get the first hit, and as hard as possible for him to get it, and you do that with positioning and movement.
 
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#175
How can you use the MG aggressively if you are holed up somewhere? If you don't move, all the enemy has to do is avoid you or arty you. You will keep that field empty, but what has that accomplished? Nothing.
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You've played Red Oktober, right?

Oh, I see, you're talking about spawn camping which is totally unrealistic. So yeah, sure you can sit and camp a spawn point and kill everyone just as they spawn. You could do it with a pistol. Lucky this is just a game and HAS respawns, isn't it?
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Clearly. If you're in the objective zone and you're killing enemies, you're making as many points and doing as much for your team as you possibly can. TWI built the map that way, they intend the Germans to sit in the tank factory and shoot at the Russians as the come out of their spawn.

When I say use an MG aggressive, I mean use. Fire it constantly. Spray rounds. Deliver the suppression that everyone seems to think isn't worth a ****. Even if the Russians make it out of their spawn point, they're hunkered down behind tiny pieces of cover, sometimes 4 deep. You can make MG kills just stitching the edges of the houses. When they run, it's a turkey shoot from the tank factory if they go (Russian) right and you can see them running for 100 meters from an elevated firing position. Or you sit on the ground floor level and skip rounds over the top of the rises so all the Russians crawl instead of run.

You may be foaming at the mouth with tactical zeal, but if you're not defending from within the tank factory as Germans, you're a waste. It's one of the few times an MG can set up, for long periods of time, dominate a large field of fire and not getting their brains blown out after the 10th round fires. It's one of the few maps where MGers have the support and covering fire of their whole team and can use their weapon to maximum advantage.

Like I said, everyone talks **** about suppression, but I've watched it bring whole teams to a standstill on Red Oktober. The only ones that make it are the ones who go left. Everyone else is MG or sniper fodder. If German players ever realize the value of their right flank on Red Oktober, which doesn't have all those windows and firing positions, Russian players will find it really, really hard to take that first objective.
 
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#176
Coreldan said:
I never claimed anything what you seem to be implying either. I play as a machine gunner probably half of the time I play and most of the time I am deployed on windows too cos there are very little options - in fact the only option is to prone.

I was just saying that there really is not much options for "better tactics" when the game simply wont allow you to deploy on anything the devs didn't define as a deployable surface. If you were able to deploy on a table further back in the room, you would probably double your effectiveness as a machinegunner. I believe this was doable in ROOST, but not in RO2. Hopefully this would change.
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Let me put it this way. You see that "deployable surface" that you think is perfect for the gun? The guy on the other side thinks that too. But, have a look at the ground BESIDE that "deployable surface". The guy on the other side is looking for you to be deployed on the surface, not prone beside it. He may not even see you while you're shooting at him, because his brain expects you to be on top, and he can't see you there.

If you need to hide you can shuffle sideways behind the cover and shuffle back out, never having left IS, and ready to shoot the instant you see the target.

It's a matter of human psychology. If you lie prone in FRONT of a window, you'll be less obvious and thus harder to find and kill than if you deploy IN the window. Movement draws attention. Sometimes just lying still in the open will make them think they got you and move on. Concealment happens in the mind of the enemy, not in the bushes in front of you.

If there is only one bush in an empty field, and someone is shooting from that field, where do you think most people are going to look? More often than not they will stare at the bush, and shoot the bush and grenade the bush... while you lie in a little depression a few metres away killing his team mates.
 
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#177
Jammybee said:
I have never seen or used a machine gun in a situation where a braced MP40 woudln't of been superior. In a game where ~60% of players have railguns, mobility is king.
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I eat MP40 for breakfast. The guys who have them think you can spray and pray too. I usually just stop and calmly take my time to kill them while they put holes in the wall behind me.

I don't need an MG to do it either. Yesterday I had a guy empty an entire mag of 9mm at me while I bayonet charged him. His last few shots got me and killed me after I bled out... but he was dead first, and I brought a knife to a gun fight.

I'm not saying I'm that good, I'm saying most everyone else is that bad.
 
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#180
KarmakazeNZ said:
How can you use the MG aggressively if you are holed up somewhere? If you don't move, all the enemy has to do is avoid you or arty you. You will keep that field empty, but what has that accomplished? Nothing.

The attackers are trying to seize ground. The defenders are trying to push them back. No one is trying to stay right where they are and keep shooting indefinitely. Not if they have any sense at all.
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That MG has done a really good job, protecting one flank of the riflemen. So the squad leader can focus on a smaller area... not a small advantage for him because since flanking is probably the oldest and most effective tactic.

The MG operator must move himself only then his position is not more useful for the rest of the squad, and only to find another good place where he can control the most dangerous enemies or he can cover the most field. And of course he have to move if he's the target of mortars... (calling artillery is too much for a single MG)
 
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