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  #121  
Old 02-23-2014, 06:25 AM
TheRed TheRed is offline
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A few thoughts (long time reader and player, first time poster here!):

TWI, given that their product is more niche in terms of potential fanbase than things like COD etc., have to ensure they maximise commerical appeal within that. As such, it seems unlikely to me that they would do anything like the Spanish Civil War, Japanese war with China, etc. The most obvious things, to my mind, would be more WW2, WW1, Vietnam or modern. Even Vietnam and WW1 seem to have less general cultural currency - they are too specifically associated with certain nations. Vietnam is interesting to people who find these things interesting, but perhaps it would primarily be the US market where it would get most traction. WW1, on the other hand, has, being realistic, less interest in the States and the wider world. I know full well it was actually quite global, so you'd get Turks, Australians and so on, of course - but this would also require TWI to incorporate lots of elements, armies, theatres of war, to maximise interest. WW2 and modern remain the wars that are most generally seared into the consciousness of the widest publics, thanks in no small part to media portrayals and so on.

Make no mistake. I would welcome a modern interpretation if TWI handled it in the same way as RO2 and so forth - yet I feel this might be hard to get right, for one thing, and would lose the crucial feeling of historical veracity. Of course there are imperfections with the WW2 stuff, for historical pedants, but most people would agree it feels right. I'm not sure this would be easy for a modern setting.

My personal preference would be for essentially more of the same. I sodding love Rising Storm and RO2, and think that, while WW2 has hardly been under-represented, the fan base that already exists would probably welcome further scope - areas of war that have not been looked at as much. Given how much I appreciate the kind of games these are, I wouldn't even mind Normandy done properly, because it's never been done like Rising Storm. Yet if one thinks about it, there are whole theatres that could be fresh and good. Italy stands out. Monte Casino! Anzio! Etc. A decent interpretation of the campaign in the desert - no, it's not all sand dunes, either - would be good. The landscapes of Holland would work well with this sort of game. Hell, there was fighting in Lebanon and Syria, Iraq.. Yes, these might fall in to the same category as some of the areas I believe would be too obscure to attract commerce - yet this is different because the WW2 general interest kind of negates all that.
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  #122  
Old 02-23-2014, 12:38 PM
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I would just like to see a modern game because I would like to see it done right. People point to Insurgency, but it just has the same damage system as the old one; that weird got-hit-but-not-really thing. And people still bunny hop and do that lone-wolf thing and all that other BS.
I'd like to see a game where an AK does less damage than an M16 because the devs didn't just say "Well 7.62 is a bigger number than 5.56 :0"
I'd like to see modern with the RO2 damage model and maybe even armor or some crazy shiz. There's just so much possibility.
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  #123  
Old 02-25-2014, 05:36 PM
Mazryonh Mazryonh is offline
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Originally Posted by TheRed View Post
TWI, given that their product is more niche in terms of potential fanbase than things like COD etc., have to ensure they maximise commercial appeal within that. As such, it seems unlikely to me that they would do anything like the Spanish Civil War, Japanese war with China, etc. The most obvious things, to my mind, would be more WW2, WW1, Vietnam or modern. Even Vietnam and WW1 seem to have less general cultural currency - they are too specifically associated with certain nations. Vietnam is interesting to people who find these things interesting, but perhaps it would primarily be the US market where it would get most traction. WW1, on the other hand, has, being realistic, less interest in the States and the wider world. I know full well it was actually quite global, so you'd get Turks, Australians and so on, of course - but this would also require TWI to incorporate lots of elements, armies, theatres of war, to maximise interest. WW2 and modern remain the wars that are most generally seared into the consciousness of the widest publics, thanks in no small part to media portrayals and so on.
Yep, if we wanted to make a game on those lesser-known conflicts, we'd be up against the lack of media representations (Vietnam has them because of the influence of American media magnates who allow those films and TV shows to be made). I'd think that if TWI made a game based on the Spanish Civil War we'd probably need a good telenovela (long-running dramatic TV serial) to get things started again. Lots of people in Spanish-speaking countries love telenovelas.

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My personal preference would be for essentially more of the same. I sodding love Rising Storm and RO2, and think that, while WW2 has hardly been under-represented, the fan base that already exists would probably welcome further scope - areas of war that have not been looked at as much. Given how much I appreciate the kind of games these are, I wouldn't even mind Normandy done properly, because it's never been done like Rising Storm. Yet if one thinks about it, there are whole theatres that could be fresh and good. Italy stands out. Monte Casino! Anzio! Etc. A decent interpretation of the campaign in the desert - no, it's not all sand dunes, either - would be good. The landscapes of Holland would work well with this sort of game. Hell, there was fighting in Lebanon and Syria, Iraq.. Yes, these might fall in to the same category as some of the areas I believe would be too obscure to attract commerce - yet this is different because the WW2 general interest kind of negates all that.
Normandy? Of course, everyone loves Saving Private Ryan. I just hope they're open-minded enough about trying the war theatres you mentioned. Those would be anything but sure bets for TWI.
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  #124  
Old 02-25-2014, 08:11 PM
Jank Jank is offline
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They could always copy Close Combat and do an Operation Market Garden game on the Western Front, to avoid Normandy... totally different kinds of game anyway, RTS vs FPS.
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  #125  
Old 03-01-2014, 06:35 PM
TheRed TheRed is offline
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One of the good points about Normandy - I am well aware that Normandy has been done to death, but I also think that RO2/RS is unique enough, and far enough removed in time from when it was at its worst, to stand on its own. I'd certainly be keen to play it, particularly if they could release it with an up-to-date, or at least effectively iterated, engine. It could quite easily be made to be pretty distinct in terms of flavour and perhaps feel. The landscapes are pretty different in some ways, or could be carefully selected to maximise that diversity. you know - attacking across open fields, hiding in corn, in bocage, in the woods, watching out for snipers in church towers etc. I get a bit giddy if I think about a destruction model in this game. Not a gimmicky one - but one in which everything is very RO, including destruction - so no Hollywood crap. But if you really want to punch a whole in a wall, or take down a tower or MG nest.. Works for me! I guess sequels have to be justified in progression terms, after all. Mind you, I'd happily pay for a Normandy / Desert / Italy etc. significant DLC or standalone now, in this engine, so I'm not the best judge.
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  #126  
Old 03-02-2014, 05:34 PM
Mazryonh Mazryonh is offline
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Originally Posted by TheRed View Post
One of the good points about Normandy - I am well aware that Normandy has been done to death, but I also think that RO2/RS is unique enough, and far enough removed in time from when it was at its worst, to stand on its own.
TWI can make the most realistic WWII game around, but still have to contend with players like these:

Call of Duty: WaW | Saving Private Ryan Version - YouTube

That's something that's not likely going to change, sadly. Even re-enactors of real conflicts have their "farbs" who don't care two whits about authenticity and "thinking like you were there."

Geico Caveman at Gettysburg - YouTube
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  #127  
Old 03-02-2014, 05:46 PM
ParanoidBaboon ParanoidBaboon is offline
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There's currently no FPS where you can play as chinese, but there are currentyly more chinese internet users than american ones, and they are still growing in numbers.If a new red orchestra (or a mod) will be the first FPS that implements the chinese faction, it would gain a lot in terms of people and market, and maybe become the china's preferred shooter
Yeah, there is. It's called Project Reality.
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  #128  
Old 03-02-2014, 07:58 PM
Jank Jank is offline
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TWI can make the most realistic WWII game around, but still have to contend with players like these:

Call of Duty: WaW | Saving Private Ryan Version - YouTube
You uh... DO realize that's not a real game, right? Ya, I guess you meant the dbags not the game.






The more I think about it, the more I think even Normandy (or maybe cringingly only Normandy) could make RO2 a blockbuster.


There haven't been any decent games set in Normandy for years now. There are presumably a whole new crop of gamers active now, seeking that sort of thing, and I think Darkest Hour may have been the last contender. As much as I like it, there's no doubt in my mind that the RO2 engine is better and would be preferred.


And there's just a huge huge contingent of gamers who flock to the Normandy maps when they're available, it's like Iwo Jima in RS, ppls like the beachmaps.



I could see where it might seem a bit like selling your soul though.

Where do you get your D-Day fix, when that happens? And how old is the game you play it on?
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  #129  
Old 03-02-2014, 08:58 PM
Fedorov Fedorov is offline
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What about a fictional scenario in which Operation Unthinkable actually happens?
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  #130  
Old 03-03-2014, 12:15 AM
Mazryonh Mazryonh is offline
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You uh... DO realize that's not a real game, right? Ya, I guess you meant the dbags not the game.
Yes, I realize that. The point is, that even if such "graphics" ever reached that level of realism, people would still act like idiots and not take it seriously, or (more rarely) take it too seriously. Both are detriments to their teams.

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The more I think about it, the more I think even Normandy (or maybe cringingly only Normandy) could make RO2 a blockbuster. There haven't been any decent games set in Normandy for years now.

And there's just a huge huge contingent of gamers who flock to the Normandy maps when they're available, it's like Iwo Jima in RS, ppls like the beachmaps.
Did you ever play the original Day of Defeat, a WWII Half-Life 1 mod? Here's a video showing some of the gameplay:

Day of Defeat Classic battle & Gameplay - YouTube

It did have some D-Day-based maps, like "Charlie" and "Dog 1," but even those were eventually forgotten in favour of boringly-symmetrical, plenty-of-capture-points-all-out-in-the-open-so-people-can-easily-get-kills maps like "Caen" and "Avalanche." Both those maps have 24/7 servers for them, actually. So no, D-Day maps aren't a panacea for a game's flagging popularity.

Mind you, people often have no idea just what the kill rate was during the opening phases of beach assaults like Iwo Jima or Omaha Beach (without swimming tank or artillery support). I doubt many players would enjoy being ground down on the beaches (as it was in reality) for a couple hundred tickets before getting a real foothold.

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What about a fictional scenario in which Operation Unthinkable actually happens?
If that were to stop the Soviets from getting nuclear weapons and starting the Cold War, then they should have waged it in that narrow period before they had nukes. But no, they let it slip past them and let the world slip into the Cold War, instead of disabusing the Soviets of their extremely detrimental ideology through another war and that Operation.

If you want Soviets-vs-Americans, though, go bug TWI about making a sequel about the Korean War. The main belligerents used Soviet weaponry vs. American weaponry for the most part, before the multinational UN forces arrived. If it has to be a Cold-War-turns-hot scenario I'd rather play a scenario where Soviet reformers like Mikhail Gorbachev are assassinated and the much-feared "Invasion across the Fulda Gap" occurs, the Soviet Union preferring conquest over economic collapse.
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  #131  
Old 03-03-2014, 04:30 PM
Jank Jank is offline
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Yeah I know all about DoD, used to play it. But it is older than even RO1 and IMO doesn't hold up to comparison. I migrated to RO1 from DoD a long time ago.


I don't think new players end up in DoD if they have an RO2 in the same theater. I guess that was basically my point.


It's been a long time for a new Western Front game, and the western front sells.


PS - best thing about DoD, and it was a great thing, is the picking up of enemy nades.
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  #132  
Old 03-03-2014, 05:37 PM
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Catching them in the air and throwing them back and getting that kill
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  #133  
Old 03-04-2014, 03:31 AM
Mazryonh Mazryonh is offline
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Yeah I know all about DoD, used to play it. But it is older than even RO1 and IMO doesn't hold up to comparison. I migrated to RO1 from DoD a long time ago.
I brought up DoD to show that Normandy maps don't always cement a game's reputation or player base. Anyway, here are two vids showing people playing the "Dod_Charlie" map based on Omaha Beach (even though there was at least one other map based on another location there, called "Dog 1").

Day of Defeat: D-Day (Axis gameplay) - YouTube

Day of Defeat: D-Day (Allies gameplay) - YouTube

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I don't think new players end up in DoD if they have an RO2 in the same theater. I guess that was basically my point. It's been a long time for a new Western Front game, and the western front sells.
Yep, it sells so much, there are quite a few WWII FPS games out there. Apparently no one ever stops buying these due to market saturation (like they would for more rational purchases).

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PS - best thing about DoD, and it was a great thing, is the picking up of enemy nades.
Actually, you could pull the pin on a German Stick Grenade and it wouldn't count down until it left your player character's hands in that game. I don't believe that's realistic because unlike American and British Hand Grenades of the period, the German Stick Grenades don't have safety levers to stop the chemical reaction that when it reaches the charge makes the grenade explode.

Anyway, DoD was highly flawed. There was no suppression system, so taking out machine gunners was fairly easy so as long as s/he didn't notice you or wasn't actively shooting at your location. There was no zoom system for non-sniper weapons, which made everyone unrealistically short-sighted, so players either had to pixel hunt like mad (and the obstructive red crosshair was no help in that game), or know just where the hiding spots in the level were.

There was no ability to walk, and crouching while moving meant that your shots could go off-centre (a real problem with bolt-action or semi-automatic rifles), even though the crosshair would be at its minimum size while crouch-moving. Suddenly changing direction (such as holding A while suddenly pressing D) mean that rifles (unrealistically) became very accurate for a second.

No ticket system meant that rounds could take a very long time if neither team was too incompetent either. So Day of Defeat sadly didn't go far enough.
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  #134  
Old 03-05-2014, 05:15 AM
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After playing Insurgency I can totally say that the next RO can be modern and it will work out pretty well.
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  #135  
Old 03-05-2014, 11:23 PM
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After playing Insurgency I can totally say that the next RO can be modern and it will work out pretty well.
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Exactly :D
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  #136  
Old 03-08-2014, 06:33 PM
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I would not want it to be.
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  #137  
Old 03-10-2014, 01:05 PM
Jank Jank is offline
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Me neither.
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  #138  
Old 03-10-2014, 01:31 PM
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Apart from the fact that there are 2 Normandy based WWII games in production now, Traction wars & Feastung Europe, so it might not be the best idea to do Normandy scenario


North Africa and Italy sounds a much better idea, there's loads of room for scope there , desert, mountains, and cities
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  #139  
Old 03-10-2014, 05:37 PM
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Should be Korea, I'm tellin' you... never been done.
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  #140  
Old 03-10-2014, 06:56 PM
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Should be Korea, I'm tellin' you... never been done.

*looks at waiter* I'll have what he's having.
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