Sigh at cod people coming in here and saying "omg a camper" deal with it, this is a tactical shooter.
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Camping is killing gameplay
- Thread starter Nowotny
- Start date
Yeah I think it's fairly early to judge the pace of the game. I look at this as an intelligent shooter, and most people aren't used to that style of gameplay...they're used to sprinting ahead to the front line unloading and insane amount of bullets and hopefully killing something in the process where in turn they get killed by someone doing the exact thing.
The pace will have to slow down, and people will need to adjust. People aren't camping moreso than just being afraid and cautious, they already tried running out at the enemy and they get shot down in seconds. Now that's going to be the essence of what creates this team strategy...people playing intelligently and dropping off ammo to mgers so they can lay suppressive fire. Not many people are used to the structure of RO2 either, in terms of what a squad leader does or a commander and to be honest RO2 at least from jumping into multiplayer...does a poor job of explaining to people their roles or at least with map indicators or in game tips what they should do and what the class is designed for...many people need this kind of taken-by-your-hand walkthrough because at the moment theyre just trying to get in there and kill someone, there's really no structure or explaination...hell even the squad layout isn't well, you don't really know what theyre doing or who they are etc..
Gameplay is going to speed up as people learn to shoot and watch out for those campers in the windows and what windows they are always in...furthermore they'll get a little bolder and braver because of that. I've already come a long way in learning to manage the mg class.
The pace will have to slow down, and people will need to adjust. People aren't camping moreso than just being afraid and cautious, they already tried running out at the enemy and they get shot down in seconds. Now that's going to be the essence of what creates this team strategy...people playing intelligently and dropping off ammo to mgers so they can lay suppressive fire. Not many people are used to the structure of RO2 either, in terms of what a squad leader does or a commander and to be honest RO2 at least from jumping into multiplayer...does a poor job of explaining to people their roles or at least with map indicators or in game tips what they should do and what the class is designed for...many people need this kind of taken-by-your-hand walkthrough because at the moment theyre just trying to get in there and kill someone, there's really no structure or explaination...hell even the squad layout isn't well, you don't really know what theyre doing or who they are etc..
Gameplay is going to speed up as people learn to shoot and watch out for those campers in the windows and what windows they are always in...furthermore they'll get a little bolder and braver because of that. I've already come a long way in learning to manage the mg class.
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Any Rifleman worth his salt will try to get in the cap zone. You shoot too slow? Well that's why you get Riflebutt/Bayo for up close. Camping and taking pot shots as a attacker is fine as long as you take land in the process. Shoot a threat and move up before the spot gets filled by another enemy.
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Obviously a well thought out post...
The game is new and players are still learning the maps. I have been playing since in the beta and I still mostly don't know where to go and get lost... I'm constantly stopping and checking my map. That could be part of it.
The biggest thing though is that "camping" is a valid defense as it should be. Mind you, not for the attackers who should at least be trying to advance.
I personally think the pace of the game is a bit faster than I would like it to be, I really like the pace of RO Ostfront and to me anything faster starts to turn Red Orchestra into a different game entirely and the last thing I want is another COD or BFwhatever#... I hate that run'n'gun gameplay pace.
Most of the spawn distances in HOS are far shorter than they were in Ostfront, so admittedly its nice not to have to walk so far into most battles.
However, overall I have to respectfully disagree
The game is new and players are still learning the maps. I have been playing since in the beta and I still mostly don't know where to go and get lost... I'm constantly stopping and checking my map. That could be part of it.
The biggest thing though is that "camping" is a valid defense as it should be. Mind you, not for the attackers who should at least be trying to advance.
I personally think the pace of the game is a bit faster than I would like it to be, I really like the pace of RO Ostfront and to me anything faster starts to turn Red Orchestra into a different game entirely and the last thing I want is another COD or BFwhatever#... I hate that run'n'gun gameplay pace.
Most of the spawn distances in HOS are far shorter than they were in Ostfront, so admittedly its nice not to have to walk so far into most battles.
However, overall I have to respectfully disagree
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ridiculous post.....please for the love of god go back to quake arena.
This is supposed to play somewhat realistic for a war based FPS. In war you do not run around like a chicken with your head cutoff.
This is supposed to play somewhat realistic for a war based FPS. In war you do not run around like a chicken with your head cutoff.
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If camping is a valid in Real Life, then is valid in RO.
Riflemen and MGs camp, Assault classes advance, thats just how it is.
Riflemen and MGs camp, Assault classes advance, thats just how it is.
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Really? How is this going to happen when the game has the lockdown feature in it? If you try to advance slowly and smartly you are going to run out of time. People who want to win will pop smoke and nag at everyone to rush in to the capzones...
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Lol. people who think this game isn't super arcadey and 90% of gameplay not coming down to twitch reflexes and knowing every window. This is already a very arcadey game, face it.
I am simply providing my experiences to suggest what is preventing teamplay and tactics. But apparently people have their head so far up their own rear here that they have no clue what type of game they are actually playing, and how its gameplay compares to other games.
My fear of getting the realism gestapo on my *** was apparently justified.
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Not only is 'camping' an integral part of any and all wars since we stopped fighting in huge lines, it's a gameplay option to those who opt to play that way and, unless someone bought me my copy of RO2, they have absolutely no right to tell me how I should play it. Will camping win all battles? Nope, but it's a game and people should be able to play how they like, within the game's mechanics
As for Running distances to get to the fight, I find they aren't anywhere near as far as they were in the original RO, or even Bad Company/Battlefield 2. And I dare not bring up Call of Duty since the average lifespan in that hunk of ADD Ritilin popping mess is 9 seconds anyway. I think the spawns are pretty much perfect, and even move with objectives.
The squad leader issue is definitely there though, I'd like to be able to spectate my squad leader up until I spawn on him, or if he died before I spawned, have some sort of indicator about it. Nothing is more frustrating than picking to spawn on him and then spawn at the teamspawn instead. I Don't know if I'd want people spawning on squadmates in a game like Red Orchestra though, with the 64 player servers especially that makes the assaulting team the winning team every time
As for Running distances to get to the fight, I find they aren't anywhere near as far as they were in the original RO, or even Bad Company/Battlefield 2. And I dare not bring up Call of Duty since the average lifespan in that hunk of ADD Ritilin popping mess is 9 seconds anyway. I think the spawns are pretty much perfect, and even move with objectives.
The squad leader issue is definitely there though, I'd like to be able to spectate my squad leader up until I spawn on him, or if he died before I spawned, have some sort of indicator about it. Nothing is more frustrating than picking to spawn on him and then spawn at the teamspawn instead. I Don't know if I'd want people spawning on squadmates in a game like Red Orchestra though, with the 64 player servers especially that makes the assaulting team the winning team every time
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There is no way gameplay pace is higher than CoD. That is nonsense. Playing CoD is like jacking up. RO2 is a big spliff compared to CoD.
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-Game pace
As a lot might have noticed the pace of the game is extremely high. Suprisingly, it is considerably higher then for instance the BF3 alpha was, and arguably even higher then CoD at times.
Firefights are decided within seconds (if they can even be counted in seconds, it's that fast), and the amount of times that they actually turn into an extended back and forth fight is utterly negligible. Assuming that most players are still rather new, it's a safe bet that this is not something that will change for the better. In fact, the game will only get faster paced as the game matures, as both player skill and weapon handling bonuses will come into play. "
***
IMO, that's realism. Unlike COD bullets from high powered rifles kill people.
"-Distance to the fight
Compared to the amount of time spend in actual combat, the amount of time spend walking from spawnpoints to the fight is immense. The longer I've been playing the more awkward this thing has become to me. It just doesn't feel right anymore after experiencing it hundreds of times. There is a serious issue with how long it takes to get into the fight, compared to how long the actual fights last. "
****
Again, that's realism, and what planning, coordination, artillery and smoke is for. OTOH, I feel your pain when campers just ADS the access points from 75m-200m. Rare in the TE mode is it where one team attacks and the other defends. BOTH have objectives to take. So, a majority of each team just camps around waiting for a turkey to waddle into their gunsights.
*****
"-Squad spawn system
A mobile player spawning system is what can rectify this issue. If you look at Bad Company 2 for example, you have a spawning system that matches the pace of gameplay. The pace is relatively high, so the system allows you to spawn on every single one of your squadmates to nearly always provide you with a reliable way of jumping right into the fight.
But back to Ro2.
A vaguely comparable system is also available in Ro2, except that it is limited to squadleader spawning only. While I am aware that the system is partially bugged, even a perfectly working version of what there is seem completely inadequate and highly unsuited to Ro2 gameplay.
Squad leaders play the game like everyone else. Basically meaning they die a lot, already denying you a forward spawn a very large percentage of the time. There also seems to be a block of some sort on spawning on squad leaders that are in certain areas (even though the game will still happily allow you to pick them as spawn, before dropping you on default spawn 1).
In short, it's not practically usable at all. It doesn't make squads stick together, and it doesn't provide a reliable way of getting you into the fight quicker. "
********
You're describing COD type spawn systems. They're not realistic and seldom work. To encourage team play, RO2 allows for a spawn on squad leader option (unless, of course, YOU are the SL).
******
"So where does all this leave us?
With classic RO lethality, and RO map design (windows corners windows corners), it simply makes for a lot of camping. Sitting in cover and waiting for an enemy to show up in your field of view is such an absurdly strong tactic right now that it overshadows nearly all other styles of play. "
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Again, I feel your pain. I hate camping, and I hate campers. There's a difference between 'defending' and 'camping,' and 75% of the players online right now don't seem to know it, or at least to care. IME, at least a simple majority of the players in any given game are flat-out campers, who I wish would go back to Black Ops tactical crouch, or as I like to put it, 'TACTICAL CAMP.'
As a lot might have noticed the pace of the game is extremely high. Suprisingly, it is considerably higher then for instance the BF3 alpha was, and arguably even higher then CoD at times.
Firefights are decided within seconds (if they can even be counted in seconds, it's that fast), and the amount of times that they actually turn into an extended back and forth fight is utterly negligible. Assuming that most players are still rather new, it's a safe bet that this is not something that will change for the better. In fact, the game will only get faster paced as the game matures, as both player skill and weapon handling bonuses will come into play. "
***
IMO, that's realism. Unlike COD bullets from high powered rifles kill people.
"-Distance to the fight
Compared to the amount of time spend in actual combat, the amount of time spend walking from spawnpoints to the fight is immense. The longer I've been playing the more awkward this thing has become to me. It just doesn't feel right anymore after experiencing it hundreds of times. There is a serious issue with how long it takes to get into the fight, compared to how long the actual fights last. "
****
Again, that's realism, and what planning, coordination, artillery and smoke is for. OTOH, I feel your pain when campers just ADS the access points from 75m-200m. Rare in the TE mode is it where one team attacks and the other defends. BOTH have objectives to take. So, a majority of each team just camps around waiting for a turkey to waddle into their gunsights.
*****
"-Squad spawn system
A mobile player spawning system is what can rectify this issue. If you look at Bad Company 2 for example, you have a spawning system that matches the pace of gameplay. The pace is relatively high, so the system allows you to spawn on every single one of your squadmates to nearly always provide you with a reliable way of jumping right into the fight.
But back to Ro2.
A vaguely comparable system is also available in Ro2, except that it is limited to squadleader spawning only. While I am aware that the system is partially bugged, even a perfectly working version of what there is seem completely inadequate and highly unsuited to Ro2 gameplay.
Squad leaders play the game like everyone else. Basically meaning they die a lot, already denying you a forward spawn a very large percentage of the time. There also seems to be a block of some sort on spawning on squad leaders that are in certain areas (even though the game will still happily allow you to pick them as spawn, before dropping you on default spawn 1).
In short, it's not practically usable at all. It doesn't make squads stick together, and it doesn't provide a reliable way of getting you into the fight quicker. "
********
You're describing COD type spawn systems. They're not realistic and seldom work. To encourage team play, RO2 allows for a spawn on squad leader option (unless, of course, YOU are the SL).
******
"So where does all this leave us?
With classic RO lethality, and RO map design (windows corners windows corners), it simply makes for a lot of camping. Sitting in cover and waiting for an enemy to show up in your field of view is such an absurdly strong tactic right now that it overshadows nearly all other styles of play. "
****
Again, I feel your pain. I hate camping, and I hate campers. There's a difference between 'defending' and 'camping,' and 75% of the players online right now don't seem to know it, or at least to care. IME, at least a simple majority of the players in any given game are flat-out campers, who I wish would go back to Black Ops tactical crouch, or as I like to put it, 'TACTICAL CAMP.'
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People need to make sure they run out of ammo nearly every time before they die. Like seriously, spam those bullets everywhere. You won't believe even in the modern era how much materiel is used up in warfare. Plus in RO2 there's those handy resupply places which fill you up sharpish.
The walls are penetrative, grenades need to be used alot, keep it all in mind. You don't need to always be a sniper laying prone taking that one perfect shot to the head with your weapon. Admiteddly with the rifle class it's all much harder, but you still need to expend alot of rounds.
Forget about stats, accuracy stats and all that. This is the Eastern Front, and sh*t happened, badly.
I always found when I started playing RO1 way back when that I was too conservative with ammo. There's no need to be, whatsoever. Worst case scenario is you pick up someone elses weapon. Infact, best case scenario, if you're a rifleman and you see a semi or fully automatic weapon on the ground, pick it up. It's almost always better than your rifle on nearly every map, and for the historical buffs out there a widely used 'tactic' on the Eastern Front was using captured/discarded weapons anyway.
The walls are penetrative, grenades need to be used alot, keep it all in mind. You don't need to always be a sniper laying prone taking that one perfect shot to the head with your weapon. Admiteddly with the rifle class it's all much harder, but you still need to expend alot of rounds.
Forget about stats, accuracy stats and all that. This is the Eastern Front, and sh*t happened, badly.
I always found when I started playing RO1 way back when that I was too conservative with ammo. There's no need to be, whatsoever. Worst case scenario is you pick up someone elses weapon. Infact, best case scenario, if you're a rifleman and you see a semi or fully automatic weapon on the ground, pick it up. It's almost always better than your rifle on nearly every map, and for the historical buffs out there a widely used 'tactic' on the Eastern Front was using captured/discarded weapons anyway.
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Lol.. actually both camp and run and gun work now, compared to RO1 where you had to rest your weapon to hit anything thus more incentive to camp.
If want zero camping, well.. uhm.. then you can probably hear the call of duty.
If you want to achieve those prolonged firefights with BF3/BC2 spawn system then all u'll get is killing Bob, killing Bob again and getting killed by the same Bob all in the one minute as it happens in BC; people multiply like cancer cells and go back to the same place to get revenge.
Thanks god, IS2 and TWI that we dont have health regen, 3 shots to kill rifles and/or huge *** sway (Ro1) to artificially extend the pewpew.
If want zero camping, well.. uhm.. then you can probably hear the call of duty.
If you want to achieve those prolonged firefights with BF3/BC2 spawn system then all u'll get is killing Bob, killing Bob again and getting killed by the same Bob all in the one minute as it happens in BC; people multiply like cancer cells and go back to the same place to get revenge.
Thanks god, IS2 and TWI that we dont have health regen, 3 shots to kill rifles and/or huge *** sway (Ro1) to artificially extend the pewpew.
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I agree with everything you have said OP, but camping is kinda part of this game - it isn't a very fluid experience but that dosen't mean it's inherently bad. RO gameplay is very blocky and slow paced by default. Not very in keeping with todays trends at all (which call for a mix of the arcade twitch style and the slow paced style that this game uses) but that's kinda cool in my opinion.
Also, I'm not sure if BF3 is still under NDA? I played the alpha too and yes, it's EXTREMELY well designed (I jizzed my pants to be blunt) but I'm not sure if you should be talking about it on a public forum. Maybe I'm wrong though.
Also, I'm not sure if BF3 is still under NDA? I played the alpha too and yes, it's EXTREMELY well designed (I jizzed my pants to be blunt) but I'm not sure if you should be talking about it on a public forum. Maybe I'm wrong though.
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