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  Click here to go to the next developer post in this thread.   #21  
Old 02-01-2014, 08:11 PM
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I have played without it in RO 2 when we did it in the beta, and IOM, and in RO 1. And pixel hunting still exists in all of them. Its a partial way to address the problem of firefights, but not a full solution.

I feel something more like what I have put down is a full solution and negates the need to removed zoom (and also removes pixel hunting as the weapons will no longer be "accurate" out to as far as the player can see).
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Old 02-01-2014, 08:13 PM
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I'm uploading a video of a new system I've been working on that is pretty much exactly what you describe Yoshiro. I'll update this post when it's up.

Here it is:

[|| Immersion Overhaul Mutator ||] Sight Alignment Mechanics WIP - YouTube

Last edited by dibbler67; 02-01-2014 at 08:19 PM.
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  This is the last developer post in this thread.   #23  
Old 02-01-2014, 08:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dibbler67 View Post
I'm uploading a video of a new system I've been working on that is pretty much exactly what you describe Yoshiro. I'll update this post when it's up.

Here it is:

[|| Immersion Overhaul Mutator ||] Sight Alignment Mechanics WIP - YouTube
YES! That is pretty much exactly it Currently it looks like yours is set fairly strong (when it probably doesn't need to be, as I mentioned small misalignments can cause big changes especially at range). Could just be part of your WIP as well.
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Old 02-01-2014, 08:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshiro View Post
YES! That is pretty much exactly it Currently it looks like yours is set fairly strong (when it probably doesn't need to be, as I mentioned small misalignments can cause big changes especially at range). Could just be part of your WIP as well.
Glad you like it

It does seem a bit too strong when you aren't holding your breath. Holding your breath shrinks the maximum deviation over time, the frequency at which the sights change direction is increased, and the speed of the sights is decreased over time.

I still need to test this with zoom and link it to suppression.
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Old 02-01-2014, 09:00 PM
titsmcgee852 titsmcgee852 is offline
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Dibbler that is amazing. Honestly fantastic.
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Old 02-01-2014, 10:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dibbler67 View Post
I'm uploading a video of a new system I've been working on that is pretty much exactly what you describe Yoshiro. I'll update this post when it's up.

Here it is: [the vid]
I'd really love to see this in the game.

I'm tired of the craziest snapshots with super-steady iron sights that you can make after running and sprinting — and the fact that because of this a player who crouches and aims properly is often at a severe disadvantage against someone who has practised the run+sights+shoot combo long enough (I'm speaking mostly about bolts and shorter distances).
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Old 02-01-2014, 10:18 PM
Singami Singami is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dibbler67 View Post
I'm uploading a video of a new system I've been working on that is pretty much exactly what you describe Yoshiro. I'll update this post when it's up.

Here it is:

[|| Immersion Overhaul Mutator ||] Sight Alignment Mechanics WIP - YouTube
Woah, seems like it's a continuation of the Focus thread and the mod looks really good!
I did noticed however that shooting doesn't affect alignment, if I'm not mistaken. It might be changed by applying it through some script, but I think a better way would be to just cut 10%-20% of player's stamina as he shoots a rifle (maybe even modified by stance from 5% on prone to 20% while standing). This would not only fix that, but also add bonus side-effect when you try to land one shot after another.
This of course would have to be modified for automatic weapons (prone -1%; crouch or standing - 2% per shot?), but it's actually a good thing. Remember all these MG34 rambos? Well, if every shot was to cut 5% of their stamina when standing, that would punish them pretty heavily.

Still, I'm just throwing ideas that might not be applicable. I'm really excited to see the mod in action.

EDIT: After watching it again, it's more of the fact that it seems that you can just hold shift and jump into immediate alignment after bolting. But the above still applies.

Last edited by Singami; 02-01-2014 at 10:21 PM.
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Old 02-02-2014, 01:34 AM
Bane5 Bane5 is online now
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I have to agree with several of the posters above me.

IOM is doing it right. Though the current system probably needs some tweaking. The sight needs to stabilize a little more and a little faster after some time spent in ads.

Last edited by Bane5; 02-02-2014 at 01:38 AM.
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Old 02-02-2014, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshiro View Post
I have played without it in RO 2 when we did it in the beta, and IOM, and in RO 1. And pixel hunting still exists in all of them. Its a partial way to address the problem of firefights, but not a full solution.

I feel something more like what I have put down is a full solution and negates the need to removed zoom (and also removes pixel hunting as the weapons will no longer be "accurate" out to as far as the player can see).
But under this solution it seems it puts smg and semi-auto role hogs at a even greater distinct advantage.
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Old 02-02-2014, 02:39 PM
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I haven't played with the sight mis-alignment as implemented with Dibblers mod, so my comments might be moot. But here goes.

(Again, having not played with it), my worry with sight mis-alignment is how much of it is controllable by the player. Can the player (other than with a simple press of the 'shift' key), counter act the animation shown.
If not, that, imo, would lead to a lot of player frustration. With the the recoil of the mod, one can control by pulling down on the mouse, so there is some modicum of control. How does one get his avatar to align their sight? Or do we just wait until the perfect sight picture arrives? (real yes, fun in-game? we'll have to see).

While, off the top of my head, I would have to agree that sight misalignment would be the 'ideal' way to go as it mimics what is actually happening irl, and while it would alleviate the "I took the perfect shot but missed." problem cone of fire introduces, I wonder if it will be another form of player antagonism.

For that reason, I've never been opposed to a reasonable amount of 'cone of fire'. While Yoshiro doesn't think the RO community would like that, as a shooter, I know full well that even though I 'think" I've made a perfect shot I don't always hit the bullseye. If done right (player stance, fatigue, etc.), I'm not so sure that 'cone of fire' wouldn't be the least aggravating way to go. Maybe not the most 'realistic', but more fun? After all, it really only comes in to play at longer distances.

I'm babbling..... I love the sight mis-alignment feature. I just wonder about its implementation and 'playability'. While I hope it can be tweaked and implemented to work well, I also hope its not implemented just for the sake of implementing it......if you know what I mean... I'll have to give it a go...
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Old 02-02-2014, 06:16 PM
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With RO2 now its SO late in the product cycle that even a "fix" to these issues is sort of questionable. Although...i would like it. With weapons and HUMANS going more real..ya alot of people use to every other fps will gripe. At least at 1st. Sticking in a big fat mechanic where breathing and heart rate are annoying to the point even a retarded squirrel can figure out that shooting accuracy and these 2 factors relate to one another.

Things to keep in mind with small arms. Its not JUST recoil of firing the weapon that can cause the thing move up and to the left. An old school SMG has little recoil for the round it is firing...this is true. However the 1 pound plus bolt slamming around on an open bolt weapon most certainly screws up accuracy. Its not the dinkie pistol bullet messing up shots. Its simply an open bolt automatic weapon (fires when trigger is released the bolt is in far rear locked position. On trigger pull bolt is released, it slams towards the chamber picking up and loading round then fires it.) Totally unlike closed bolt weapons where pulling the trigger simply means a hammer hits a firing pin and BAM. And of course extractor and ejector spitting out an empty shell push weapons to left. Also the slight effect of rifling impart there own actions on the weapon.

We also do not have wind to worry about.

The average player has no clue how actual firearms work. everything they usually know is learned from games and movies. Which are 99 percent fantasy.

With crew served fixed MG's I sort of with they where placed by an actual MG crew of 2 or 3 players. That way the magical spawned mg place is less predictable indeed. Then again I would also prefer off screen arty was gone replaced by player based mortar crews too. And i don't mean the silly knee mortar.

Forgot something..

Getting brush to react to fake wind muddy s the waters on the pixel hunting deal. Human eye LOVES to detect movement. Its real good at it. When lots of clutter such as leaves in the breeze its not quite so easy.
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Last edited by Flashburn; 02-02-2014 at 06:24 PM.
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  #32  
Old 03-20-2014, 01:30 PM
Calumhm Calumhm is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dibbler67 View Post
I'm uploading a video of a new system I've been working on that is pretty much exactly what you describe Yoshiro. I'll update this post when it's up.

Here it is:

[|| Immersion Overhaul Mutator ||] Sight Alignment Mechanics WIP - YouTube
Looks pretty cool mate. As Yosh said, it's a bit extreme ATM but the principle seems sound.

Does this effect accuracy though, or is it currently just the 1st person gun model moving? If so players can still see where the gun is really aiming, as opposed to where it's displayed as aiming

Anyway, looks good! I do hope we can still hit enemies at medium range without needing to rest or go prone though.
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Old 03-21-2014, 07:55 AM
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I think a player is very stiff when he's on the hmg and it's quite unreliable when going into cover. A main problem would be that you can't go into cover while reloading. Wtf, is that?

But I think the majority of the problem is already mentoined here.
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Old 03-21-2014, 09:47 PM
gimpy117 gimpy117 is offline
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I think it is the MG's are on too commanding of a position and cannot move to a safer protected field of fire
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Old 03-22-2014, 05:10 PM
DerRidda DerRidda is online now
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I personally dislike any kind of randomness in the aiming process that the player can't compensate for while a real marksman could. We only have one pointer device to adjust our aim with, which by its nature isn't enough to simulate the process of pointing AND lining up a 3D object.

It's frustrating to wait for the RNG to spit out your lucky number to nail that long range shot.

I'm not opposed to a cone of fire that would reflect a weapon/ammo's inherent inaccuracy but for most bolt action rifles there isn't a lot to do here.

The best thing to make HMGs more feasible is to improve the positions they are in. Those sandbags on Apartments did wonders for the HMGs.

Just take a look at the HMG on Hanto Objective C that is overlooking the front near the road. As long as there are HMGs on any map that are this exposed and have such a wide and obscured field of fire nobody should be surprised that HMGs are a deathtrap.

Last edited by DerRidda; 03-22-2014 at 07:22 PM.
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  #36  
Old 03-23-2014, 12:16 AM
luke688 luke688 is offline
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I think zoom is fine, but the game should focus more on weapon resting to steady your weapon at the moment it's just too easy to crouch hold your breath and bam almost zero deviation for easy shots.

Also with regards to static MG's it doesn't help that this is still in the game http://forums.tripwireinteractive.co...ad.php?t=90309
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Old 03-23-2014, 04:01 PM
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Personally i think unaligning ironsights works more against the player than more sway or recoil.

Primarily because sway and recoil depening on how its setup can be learned to control. Meaning you can train yourself to overcome the difficulties put upon you.

While with misaligned ironsights you basically have a random timer that depends on when you are allowed to shoot or not. Which to me feels more clunky than having a system working against you but in a more constant or controllable fashion.

On my end a big issue with zoom is that you can only use it while stationary, im not a big fan of zoom and probably never will be. But only being able to zoom when you're not moving cripples attackers even more than they already are.

Attackers are moving (making you easier to spot and making it more difficult to spot an enemy) and often not in cover, making it easier to hit and again easier to spot. Then on top of that being unable to zoom in on possible enemy locations while the enemies are able to do exactly that, brings a big preference to attackers to not try to attack and instead just hide somewhere.

Similarly the increase in range that zoom introduces means people can hide and shoot you from a much larger area. Instead of making a circle around you of say 100 meters where enemies can see and kill you, enemies can now see you at a circle of 200 meters effectively meaning you can get shot from an area 4 times as big.

------------------

In the end for me a big part of the fun in a game is seeing who killed you and perhaps trying to kill each other and not succeeding. However I don't think that the goal should be to make it more difficult to hit, I think the goal should be to make it easier for 2 players to see each other.

------------------

However I feel that adding a lot of systems on top doesn't necessarily make things better if anything it might add another system for a new player to learn.

When I first started playing RO1 i liked it due to the similarities with instagib in UT or Quake. In those (extremely arcade games) you had the same things as pixel shooting or whatever, but it never really posed an issue.

However in RO1 and UT Quake, a big difference is that levels are generally more open, players emit some light. All in all making an enemy quite easily stand out. And even though hitting was as simple as putting the sights on them and clicking the mouse, every player in the map likely spotted you and tried to return fire, creating overall fire fights.

Modern games including RO2 have a lot more detail which is nice, and have correct character lighting in darker areas which is nice. However those things make it a lot more difficult to detect a foe at range. Even with zoom, seeing an enemy in fallenfighters from one teams sniper building to the other is more difficult than it was in the same map RO1. Purely because enemies stuck out like a sore thumb in RO1

Personally I'm not a big fan of hide and seek, continuously crawling on my belly just to get shot from an enemy I never saw or killing someone that never saw me. And while hitting can be made more difficult, such that you end up detecting enemies by their bullet whizzes or muzzle flashes. But I still wonder if that is the correct way to detect an enemy. Usually for new players hitting is already quite difficult. (with free aim your mouse movement no longer corresponds to a set rotation of your aiming point, giving a very similar effect to mouse acceleration, which takes a lot of time to learn).
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Last edited by Zetsumei; 03-23-2014 at 04:09 PM.
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Old 03-25-2014, 06:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zetsumei View Post
Post).
I couldn't agree more. I never can express what you so easily can. Zets, when you make and implement this into a game let me know, I'll be the first to purchase.

Last edited by akb; 03-25-2014 at 06:11 PM.
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Old 03-26-2014, 05:06 AM
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I think it's a good point players blend in more naturally with their environment. It's one of the perks of improved graphic engines. I wouldn't like to see players artificially emit light. I'd rather see it made harder to land perfect shots.
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Old 03-26-2014, 06:18 AM
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Default Dear Kleist

thanks for that answer ! i agree with more than 100%, i have "recently" played that IOM and it was complete different experience.

The current realism mode feels more like the multiplayer of Sniper Elite V2, IOM feels like a tactical teambased shooter.
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