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How the Berserker is overpowered...

Oh dear, you've done it again. I don't know why you bother repeatedly saying that "everyone is entitled to their opinion" when you're clearly full of derision for anyone who disagrees with you. Who do you think you're kidding? You might as well just say what you really think and be done with it.

No idea why you think I have ever derided anyone for their opinion. Your quote of mine certainly doesn't qualify. I didn't name anyone. I stated "Personally, I think..." I didn't quote someone else. If you are reading derision in my statements, then you are putting it there. I'm not.


You have often said things to the effect of "the Berserker can disengage whenever he wants" and "the Berserker can always run away". Inherent in those claims is the assumption that the Berserker has unlimited space into which to retreat, e.g. when doing laps around the map. Right off the bat, then, you've missed the fact that the Berserker is actually not on the run most of the time - he's usually covering the team.

Yes and no. Sure, closed and small maps are a problem. However, those maps are a problem for every perk but less of a problem for the zerker due to his speed, unable to be grabbed, permanent armor (what do you think damage resistance is?), and ability to fire indefinitely without pausing to reload. The zerker may not always have a 100% chance to run, but he always has the greater chance while every other perk other than medic usually has zero chance to run on a small or closed map.


But of course, if he's covering his teammates, surely his teammates are also covering him? Hopefully, yes; but they have to do a good job of it, or he'll die.

99.9% of the games I have been in, the zerker isn't "covering his teammates." As everyone always mentions, that zerker is almost always out in front of the team. Usually way out in front and since the team is almost positions themselves in a good defensive position, they are covering that zerker by generally shooting at him. Sure, if an FP or scrake pops in front a different direction the zerker should, and usually does, break towards the larger threat. But those few times in a game that an FP pops in from a different direction wouldn't constitute "covering" for the game.

As for "or he'll die", I am sure you have seen in every game the zerkers that wade into the convergence of multiple spawn points, piss away their armor in 30 seconds, then run back to the team screaming for heals. Then they'll fight within range of the team for the rest of the wave.


That's also one of the main reasons why a fatigue system like you keep suggesting would be a bad idea. When a team-defending Berserker's energy runs low, what should he do? Ranged perks deal with reloading by creating a "distance window" in which to do it: that is, they keep the specimens far enough away from them that they have time to reload before the specimens can reach them. Berserkers implicitly lack that window when defending a team, because their role mandates that they're within striking distance as often as possible. Plus (and this is the other reason), despite their speed bonuses, charging Gorefasts still outrun them, so even when on the move, they can't reliably create that window just by running away.

"What should he do?" What every other perks has to do at some point. Some form of pause. The fatigue system was just a suggestion to deal with a very silly advantage the zerker has.

The zerker can continually fire his top tiered weapon from the very beginning of the game till the map selection for the next game. No pausing. No slowdown. No reduced damage. Add in the very stupid autofire and the zerker can now simply hold down the mouse button and create a very real "wall of death" in front of him as he rushes or behind him as be runs away.

As for the ranged perks creating a "distance window", they can't. They can certainly hope that they can reload quickly enough while backing up, but only the zerker and medic can actually "create time" to reload safely.

Don't even get me started that the zerker can stand on the side of a door and autofire for the entire wave while specimens stupidly walk into the attack.


The damage resistance is fine as it is. You keep saying that "it's enough to let him get out of any situation", without condition, as if it's some kind of invincible magic shield, but it isn't.

I don't I have ever said that.


It's enough to stop him from dying when taking on groups too big to kill quickly enough (as the team-defending Berserker often must), or to get out of some bad situations, but only just barely, and only if the Berserker does exactly the right thing without delay - it has its limits, and it doesn't save inept Berserkers from themselves. The beta's damage resistance buff is ridiculous though, and I've been quite vocal in my opposition to it, as I'm sure you're aware.

Well, sure. Of course, zerker should have some damage resistance.

On a related note of "inept berserkers", I was tell scary about this guy who was placing zerker in a game. We were in manor and I was dead. He allowed himself to get backed up between the two tunnels by a scrake. So his back was to stone with a scrake in front of him. Then two gorefasts ran on each side of him and he was trapped. Did he attack a gorefast and run out? Nope. He kept the chainsaw on the scrake while the two gorefasts raped him from the sides. His first words after he died? "Don't tell me the zerker is OP!" Very funny.

All I am looking for is some disadvantages to the zerker perk. That is all. Some. Because right now, in game, he doesn't have any.


And as for the speed, well, he needs that.

Of course he does.


Berserkers with M79s are not inherently better than Demolitions with them, just different.

A better player, not better with the m79. Of course the demo will be able to do more damage with the m79, however, over all, the zerker will be more valuable to the team.


But back to the running away. There are two main issues that make soloing late-game waves more viable than it should be, but neither are issues with the Berserker perk.

One of the questions I asked when this balance started was "What perks will be able to solo the FP?" and right now, the only perk that can do that, without using any deplete-able resources, is the zerker. Now, TWI may want it that way, and that is cool. Their sandbox. Their rules. But the way the game is setup right now, the zerker is the only perk that can exploit the quirks of the game.
 
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Yes and no. Sure, closed and small maps are a problem. However, those maps are a problem for every perk but less of a problem for the zerker due to his speed, unable to be grabbed, permanent armor (what do you think damage resistance is?), and ability to fire indefinitely without pausing to reload. The zerker may not always have a 100% chance to run, but he always has the greater chance while every other perk other than medic usually has zero chance to run on a small or closed map.




99.9% of the games I have been in, the zerker isn't "covering his teammates." As everyone always mentions, that zerker is almost always out in front of the team. Usually way out in front and since the team is almost positions themselves in a good defensive position, they are covering that zerker by generally shooting at him. Sure, if an FP or scrake pops in front a different direction the zerker should, and usually does, break towards the larger threat. But those few times in a game that an FP pops in from a different direction wouldn't constitute "covering" for the game.

As for "or he'll die", I am sure you have seen in every game the zerkers that wade into the convergence of multiple spawn points, piss away their armor in 30 seconds, then run back to the team screaming for heals. Then they'll fight within range of the team for the rest of the wave.




"What should he do?" What every other perks has to do at some point. Some form of pause. The fatigue system was just a suggestion to deal with a very silly advantage the zerker has.

The zerker can continually fire his top tiered weapon from the very beginning of the game till the map selection for the next game. No pausing. No slowdown. No reduced damage. Add in the very stupid autofire and the zerker can now simply hold down the mouse button and create a very real "wall of death" in front of him as he rushes or behind him as be runs away.

As for the ranged perks creating a "distance window", they can't. They can certainly hope that they can reload quickly enough while backing up, but only the zerker and medic can actually "create time" to reload safely.

Don't even get me started that the zerker can stand on the side of a door and autofire for the entire wave while specimens stupidly walk into the attack.




I don't I have ever said that.




Well, sure. Of course, zerker should have some damage resistance.

On a related note of "inept berserkers", I was tell scary about this guy who was placing zerker in a game. We were in manor and I was dead. He allowed himself to get backed up between the two tunnels by a scrake. So his back was to stone with a scrake in front of him. Then two gorefasts ran on each side of him and he was trapped. Did he attack a gorefast and run out? Nope. He kept the chainsaw on the scrake while the two gorefasts raped him from the sides. His first words after he died? "Don't tell me the zerker is OP!" Very funny.

All I am looking for is some disadvantages to the zerker perk. That is all. Some. Because right now, in game, he doesn't have any.




Of course he does.




A better player, not better with the m79. Of course the demo will be able to do more damage with the m79, however, over all, the zerker will be more valuable to the team.




One of the questions I asked when this balance started was "What perks will be able to solo the FP?" and right now, the only perk that can do that, without using any deplete-able resources, is the zerker. Now, TWI may want it that way, and that is cool. Their sandbox. Their rules. But the way the game is setup right now, the zerker is the only perk that can exploit the quirks of the game.

Umm, I'm pretty it was already established that the zerker does have disadvantages-can only engage one enemy at a time, can't kite more than one FP or scrake at the same time, only has one decent class weapon, must rely on other team mates for cover in suicide mode. I mean, COME ON! Also, if you want the zerk's weapons to be limited, go play L4D2, no offense. Meelee weapons have a slower rate of fire on L4D and the chainsaw is gas-powered. Back to KF, the zerker's weapons have never had ammo or limits and, if fatigue were introduced, people would argue for weeks about how other characters should have health bars or nerfs.

The only part I agree with you on is that the zerker shouldn't be able to use other class weapons as easily. If tripwire did that, they would have to add at least one or two more weapons to zerker to make him more versatile and balanced.
 
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No idea why you think I have ever derided anyone for their opinion. Your quote of mine certainly doesn't qualify. I didn't name anyone. I stated "Personally, I think..." I didn't quote someone else. If you are reading derision in my statements, then you are putting it there. I'm not.
If I said something like "personally, I think everyone is a douchebag", I'm pretty sure that'd count as derision. And it doesn't even name anyone!

Saying that "everyone secretly wants one aspect of the game to be unbalanced so they can use it to assuage their complexes by having everyone see them play the hero and pull it off" is insulting. There's just no two ways about it. Do you honestly not see that?

A better player, not better with the m79. Of course the demo will be able to do more damage with the m79, however, over all, the zerker will be more valuable to the team.
This little gem deserves a spot near the top because it proves that you skimread my post. The rest of that paragraph clearly shows that I wasn't talking about the M79's damage output; the only reasonable explanation is that you didn't read it fully.

Yes and no. Sure, closed and small maps are a problem. However, those maps are a problem for every perk but less of a problem for the zerker due to his speed, unable to be grabbed, permanent armor (what do you think damage resistance is?), and ability to fire indefinitely without pausing to reload. The zerker may not always have a 100% chance to run, but he always has the greater chance while every other perk other than medic usually has zero chance to run on a small or closed map.
I never said anything about closed maps. I was talking about how playing line defender limits his room to move by obliging him to stay in front of his teammates. When he's doing that, it's not about his own "chance to run" - it's about how far he can move backwards before the specimens he's supposed to be keeping away from his teammates end up reaching them anyway. I thought that was quite clear... but then again, as demonstrated above, there might be another reason.

99.9% of the games I have been in, the zerker isn't "covering his teammates." As everyone always mentions, that zerker is almost always out in front of the team. Usually way out in front and since the team is almost positions themselves in a good defensive position, they are covering that zerker by generally shooting at him. Sure, if an FP or scrake pops in front a different direction the zerker should, and usually does, break towards the larger threat. But those few times in a game that an FP pops in from a different direction wouldn't constitute "covering" for the game.
Well I'm not sure what your definition of covering is, but drawing enemy attention to oneself to stop the teammates behind from being attacked certainly fits mine.

As for "or he'll die", I am sure you have seen in every game the zerkers that wade into the convergence of multiple spawn points, piss away their armor in 30 seconds, then run back to the team screaming for heals. Then they'll fight within range of the team for the rest of the wave.
Yes, I have seen Berserkers like that, and I have no idea how they're supposed to help your case. They're saved by their teammates.

"What should he do?" What every other perks has to do at some point. Some form of pause. The fatigue system was just a suggestion to deal with a very silly advantage the zerker has.
Where is he supposed to find the time for that pause? I pointed out why it wouldn't be feasible, and you've just ignored it.

The zerker can continually fire his top tiered weapon from the very beginning of the game till the map selection for the next game. No pausing. No slowdown. No reduced damage. Add in the very stupid autofire and the zerker can now simply hold down the mouse button and create a very real "wall of death" in front of him as he rushes or behind him as be runs away.
Except that it's actually not that simple at all, because he has to figure out where to send every attack in order to get anything out of it. There are very few situations where a Berserker will actually survive just holding down the mouse button and hoping for the best.

As for the ranged perks creating a "distance window", they can't. They can certainly hope that they can reload quickly enough while backing up, but only the zerker and medic can actually "create time" to reload safely.
The window I'm talking about isn't something they suddenly create whenever they reload; it's the natural side-effect of killing things at a distance. Given that reloading doesn't automatically result in being hit, it seems to work fairly well.

Don't even get me started that the zerker can stand on the side of a door and autofire for the entire wave while specimens stupidly walk into the attack.
I don't like it when that happens either, but complaining about the Berserker there is barking up the wrong tree. Narrow doorways that can be held in such a fashion are a map design issue, and teams generally don't have trouble with them whether they have a Berserker out the front or not.

I don't I have ever said that.
You have actually said of a scenario involving a Flesh Pound and multiple Sirens that his resistances are "more than enough" to let him just run right through them without even silencing any of the Sirens, and there are others like it. I can dig up quotes if you really insist, but I'd rather not bother.

Well, sure. Of course, zerker should have some damage resistance.
Since you've been fairly ambiguous about this one before, let's just set it straight: What would you consider to be a reasonable amount of damage reduction for the level 6 Berserker?

All I am looking for is some disadvantages to the zerker perk. That is all. Some. Because right now, in game, he doesn't have any.
Again, that claim of yours is based on the notion that the Berserker spends 100% of his time performing the solo kiting routine. Not once in your posts have you considered how the Berserker fares when tethered to a team formation. This discussion won't go anywhere until you do.

One of the questions I asked when this balance started was "What perks will be able to solo the FP?" and right now, the only perk that can do that, without using any deplete-able resources, is the zerker. Now, TWI may want it that way, and that is cool. Their sandbox. Their rules. But the way the game is setup right now, the zerker is the only perk that can exploit the quirks of the game.
"Without using depleteable resources"? Well, when your question deliberately prevents ranged perks from using their weapons, what answer did you expect? That's ridiculous. Anyway, that aside, perks other than Berserker can use the line-of-sight trick too; they just aren't as good at it. But it needs to go altogether, and as it's an issue with the Flesh Pound's rage mechanics, not the Berserker perk, pinning it on the Berserker will accomplish nothing.
 
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If I said something like "personally, I think everyone is a douchebag", I'm pretty sure that'd count as derision. And it doesn't even name anyone!

Saying that "everyone secretly wants one aspect of the game to be unbalanced so they can use it to assuage their complexes by having everyone see them play the hero and pull it off" is insulting. There's just no two ways about it. Do you honestly not see that?


This little gem deserves a spot near the top because it proves that you skimread my post. The rest of that paragraph clearly shows that I wasn't talking about the M79's damage output; the only reasonable explanation is that you didn't read it fully.


I never said anything about closed maps. I was talking about how playing line defender limits his room to move by obliging him to stay in front of his teammates. When he's doing that, it's not about his own "chance to run" - it's about how far he can move backwards before the specimens he's supposed to be keeping away from his teammates end up reaching them anyway. I thought that was quite clear... but then again, as demonstrated above, there might be another reason.


Well I'm not sure what your definition of covering is, but drawing enemy attention to oneself to stop the teammates behind from being attacked certainly fits mine.


Yes, I have seen Berserkers like that, and I have no idea how they're supposed to help your case. They're saved by their teammates.


Where is he supposed to find the time for that pause? I pointed out why it wouldn't be feasible, and you've just ignored it.


Except that it's actually not that simple at all, because he has to figure out where to send every attack in order to get anything out of it. There are very few situations where a Berserker will actually survive just holding down the mouse button and hoping for the best.


The window I'm talking about isn't something they suddenly create whenever they reload; it's the natural side-effect of killing things at a distance. Given that reloading doesn't automatically result in being hit, it seems to work fairly well.


I don't like it when that happens either, but complaining about the Berserker there is barking up the wrong tree. Narrow doorways that can be held in such a fashion are a map design issue, and teams generally don't have trouble with them whether they have a Berserker out the front or not.


You have actually said of a scenario involving a Flesh Pound and multiple Sirens that his resistances are "more than enough" to let him just run right through them without even silencing any of the Sirens, and there are others like it. I can dig up quotes if you really insist, but I'd rather not bother.


Since you've been fairly ambiguous about this one before, let's just set it straight: What would you consider to be a reasonable amount of damage reduction for the level 6 Berserker?


Again, that claim of yours is based on the notion that the Berserker spends 100% of his time performing the solo kiting routine. Not once in your posts have you considered how the Berserker fares when tethered to a team formation. This discussion won't go anywhere until you do.


"Without using depleteable resources"? Well, when your question deliberately prevents ranged perks from using their weapons, what answer did you expect? That's ridiculous. Anyway, that aside, perks other than Berserker can use the line-of-sight trick too; they just aren't as good at it. But it needs to go altogether, and as it's an issue with the Flesh Pound's rage mechanics, not the Berserker perk, pinning it on the Berserker will accomplish nothing.

I think we all should agree to disagree. A more constructive solution would be to put this question up for a vote. For example, Does the beserker's advantages make him more superior than every other class? Should the beserker be given a fatigue penalty? Should the beserker have greater penalties when using non-class weapons? Should the beserker be given new weapons? A vote like this would settle this question once and for all.
 
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@bstm300
A vote does very little. Who cares if 90% of people think that 'zerker is not overpowered? By creating a structured argument and defending it, you have a better chance of persuading people, including TWI who have the final say in whatever happens to the game.

Also stop block quoting; it's annoying to have a page with 5 or 6 replies on it. Either use the at(@) to address arguments at people or type plainly, since it is obvious if you are making an argument or attacking the previous poster's argument.

@nutter
Probably the easiest way to fix what you are calling "OP" about the berserker is to up the weight of the katana (as you sort of suggested in the first post) up to 5 units (no katana crossbow or katana LAR M79 loadouts) or 7 units (Also no katana M79 Handcannon loadout). Doing this would hamper the berserker's versatility. You argument is, in its most basic form: the berserker has these good traits and really doesn't have weaknesses that cannot be dealt with. Melee weapons other than the katana are reasonable weighted for their effectiveness, so why not katana?

Still though, I don't think this needs to be done since most players don't have the ability and experience to adapt quickly enough to make full use of the versatility that berserker's have. This is really what many posters here seem to be trying to get at. If not for that versitility, then the berserker would be roughly the same for new players (usually zerker is not used anyway because they tend to wander off and get surrounded and they don't get to use the cool guns). At level 6 in Suicidal with a good player though, such changes (katana weight) would cripple the berserker, especially for non-god tier berserkers.
 
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Umm, I'm pretty it was already established that the zerker does have disadvantages-can only engage one enemy at a time, can't kite more than one FP or scrake at the same time, only has one decent class weapon, must rely on other team mates for cover in suicide mode. I mean, COME ON! Also, if you want the zerk's weapons to be limited, go play L4D2, no offense. Meelee weapons have a slower rate of fire on L4D and the chainsaw is gas-powered. Back to KF, the zerker's weapons have never had ammo or limits and, if fatigue were introduced, people would argue for weeks about how other characters should have health bars or nerfs.

The only part I agree with you on is that the zerker shouldn't be able to use other class weapons as easily. If tripwire did that, they would have to add at least one or two more weapons to zerker to make him more versatile and balanced.

Do you even play berserker? Or rather, do you play berserker effectively? None of these weaknesses you listed are even true or will be true once the beta patch goes live.

  • Beta chainsaw got a nice rebuff and obliterates crawlers up to bloats, even sirens and husks go down fairly quickly. Even without the beta buff, katana does a good enough job handling crowds with good movement and spacing.
  • Did you not watch the video I posted? Devante kited 3 fleshpounds that were on the map at the same time. And to top it off, he killed them all with his axe.
  • Axe, chainsaw (Beta), and katana are all powerful weapons. Axe and Katana 1 shot everything up to a scrake on 6 man suicidal. Even with the back stab fix, axe still 1 shots up to a scrake, and katana needs 2 shots on sirens and husks, which takes you a quick second.
  • Berserker is the best perk at taking care of himself. High movement speed coupled no clot grabbing lets dodge just about everything and move in and out of battle when he wants. He doesn't need cover from anyone on suicidal to be successful.
Again, watch how Devante plays berserker. I sure don't any of these weaknesses you listed in his game.

http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showpost.php?p=659349&postcount=172[url]http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showpost.php?p=659349&postcount=172[/URL]

The only thing that would have stopped him would have been Entangler's suggestions to the FP rage mechanic. Even then, for a guy like that, he probably would have come up with something to counter it with door welding or other ideas along that line. Bottom line is, when you play as well as Devante does, given the current game mechanics, you will only lose from making a bad choice.
 
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Umm, I'm pretty it was already established that the zerker does have disadvantages-can only engage one enemy at a time, can't kite more than one FP or scrake at the same time, only has one decent class weapon, must rely on other team mates for cover in suicide mode. I mean, COME ON!

1) With certain weapons. Zerkers can engage multiple targets with other weapons.
2) Huh? I've kited more than a couple FPs and scrakes at one time. And I suck as a zerker.
3) One decent class weapon? Axe, katana, chainsaw?
4) Must rely on teammates for cover in suicidal? Really?


Back to KF, the zerker's weapons have never had ammo or limits and, if fatigue were introduced, people would argue for weeks about how other characters should have health bars or nerfs.

People would argue for weeks about anything. :) I'm just pointing out the absurdity of a player being able to output top tier damage for the entire game with no pausing. And no clicking either.

The only part I agree with you on is that the zerker shouldn't be able to use other class weapons as easily. If tripwire did that, they would have to add at least one or two more weapons to zerker to make him more versatile and balanced.

But making him "more versatile and balanced" means removing any disadvantages to the zerker. As long as the other weapons are "good enough" and the zerker can carry a full load, then the zerker can handle just about every situation.



If I said something like "personally, I think everyone is a douchebag", I'm pretty sure that'd count as derision. And it doesn't even name anyone!

Saying that "everyone secretly wants one aspect of the game to be unbalanced so they can use it to assuage their complexes by having everyone see them play the hero and pull it off" is insulting. There's just no two ways about it. Do you honestly not see that?

First, your example was an insult. Second, as I mentioned, "If you are reading derision in my statements, then you are putting it there. I'm not." If you are determined to see an insult, then you will.

This little gem deserves a spot near the top because it proves that you skimread my post. The rest of that paragraph clearly shows that I wasn't talking about the M79's damage output; the only reasonable explanation is that you didn't read it fully.

Of course the demo brings an m32 and pipebombs to the party. I was explaining my earlier point.

I never said anything about closed maps. I was talking about how playing line defender limits his room to move by obliging him to stay in front of his teammates. When he's doing that, it's not about his own "chance to run" - it's about how far he can move backwards before the specimens he's supposed to be keeping away from his teammates end up reaching them anyway. I thought that was quite clear... but then again, as demonstrated above, there might be another reason.

You said "assumption that the Berserker has unlimited space" I was mentioning "small and closed maps" while replying to that point. As for "keeping away from his teammates", you're example was "when doing laps around the map."

Well I'm not sure what your definition of covering is, but drawing enemy attention to oneself to stop the teammates behind from being attacked certainly fits mine.

Yes, I have seen Berserkers like that, and I have no idea how they're supposed to help your case. They're saved by their teammates.

My definition? "But those few times in a game that an FP pops in from a different direction wouldn't constitute "covering" for the game. If you want to say that a zerker is covering his teammates, then go ahead. When you say "covering their teammates", I think of someone doing it continually throughout the game; flamer, medic, and support. If you want to say that some zerker running back a few times during the entire game is covering, then fine.

Just pointing out general zerker behavior.

Where is he supposed to find the time for that pause? I pointed out why it wouldn't be feasible, and you've just ignored it.

I answered your question. You asked "What should he do?" The zerker shouldn't be able to fire a top tiered perked weapon continually for the entire game and do top damage with every swing. He should have to do what every other perk has to do. Husband their resources.

Except that it's actually not that simple at all, because he has to figure out where to send every attack in order to get anything out of it. There are very few situations where a Berserker will actually survive just holding down the mouse button and hoping for the best.

Depends on the situation. As I specifically mention in the "wall of death" example. No other perk can just hold down the mouse button and run until they are clear. Or back up and continually attack anything that catches up.

The window I'm talking about isn't something they suddenly create whenever they reload; it's the natural side-effect of killing things at a distance. Given that reloading doesn't automatically result in being hit, it seems to work fairly well.

When specimens are at a distance. Considering the majority of games end when the team is overrun, being able to create time to reload is a real advantage.

I don't like it when that happens either, but complaining about the Berserker there is barking up the wrong tree. Narrow doorways that can be held in such a fashion are a map design issue, and teams generally don't have trouble with them whether they have a Berserker out the front or not.

Just pointing out a very common scenario where the continual firing occurs.

You have actually said of a scenario involving a Flesh Pound and multiple Sirens that his resistances are "more than enough" to let him just run right through them without even silencing any of the Sirens, and there are others like it. I can dig up quotes if you really insist, but I'd rather not bother.

Sure, I said that. However, there is a very real difference between prunning past an FP and two sirens and "it's enough to let him get out of any situation", without condition, as if it's some kind of invincible magic shield

Obviously.

Since you've been fairly ambiguous about this one before, let's just set it straight: What would you consider to be a reasonable amount of damage reduction for the level 6 Berserker?

I don't know. Depends on other things as well. 20% physical sounds good to me but it depends on the other perk bonuses as well.

Again, that claim of yours is based on the notion that the Berserker spends 100% of his time performing the solo kiting routine.

Not even a little.

"Without using depleteable resources"? Well, when your question deliberately prevents ranged perks from using their weapons, what answer did you expect? That's ridiculous.

Sigh. No, that doesn't prevent ranged perks from using their weapons. What it does is prevent ranged perks from using their top weapons indefinitely. For example, support can solo an FP. Toss multiple grenades and fire the AA12. But that takes resources so he can't do that against FPs or scrakes over and over and over again. The zerker's top tier attacks uses zero resources so he can attack multiple FPs and scrakes again and again and again using his top weapons. Other perks can maybe solo one or two FPs by burning grenades and spamming weapons. But they can't keep doing that over and over again. Zerkers can.

Anyway, that aside, perks other than Berserker can use the line-of-sight trick too; they just aren't as good at it. But it needs to go altogether, and as it's an issue with the Flesh Pound's rage mechanics, not the Berserker perk, pinning it on the Berserker will accomplish nothing.

They aren't as good as it because they don't have the speed.
 
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@nutter
Probably the easiest way to fix what you are calling "OP" about the berserker is to up the weight of the katana (as you sort of suggested in the first post) up to 5 units (no katana crossbow or katana LAR M79 loadouts) or 7 units (Also no katana M79 Handcannon loadout). Doing this would hamper the berserker's versatility. You argument is, in its most basic form: the berserker has these good traits and really doesn't have weaknesses that cannot be dealt with. Melee weapons other than the katana are reasonable weighted for their effectiveness, so why not katana?

How about going in the other direction? The zerker has quickness and speed right? The katana doesn't really weigh that much or is bulky, so I would lower the zerker's carry capacity to 8 or prevent the zerker from carrying anything other than melee and pistols. He is supposed to be fast so give him a reason why he is fast. He carries less.

Support has greater capacity but slower speed, right? Why can't zerker be the same but mirrored?

I'd even take armor away from the zerker. After all, he couldn't wear bulky and heavy kevlar and still be as quick as he is, right?
 
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Do you even play berserker? Or rather, do you play berserker effectively? None of these weaknesses you listed are even true or will be true once the beta patch goes live.

  • Beta chainsaw got a nice rebuff and obliterates crawlers up to bloats, even sirens and husks go down fairly quickly. Even without the beta buff, katana does a good enough job handling crowds with good movement and spacing.


  • You are talking about BETA chainsaw. Need I say more? Also, what if you are in a confined space like a narrow hallway or in a tunnel or in a house? The Katana wouldn't do such a good job in those situations as you may not have an escape route or could get cornered.

    [*]Did you not watch the video I posted? Devante kited 3 fleshpounds that were on the map at the same time. And to top it off, he killed them all with his axe.
    [*]Axe, chainsaw (Beta), and katana are all powerful weapons. Axe and Katana 1 shot everything up to a scrake on 6 man suicidal. Even with the back stab fix, axe still 1 shots up to a scrake, and katana needs 2 shots on sirens and husks, which takes you a quick second.

    Also, the average zerker can't kite 3 flesh pounds and isn't god-like at playing the zerker. How many more times can I stress this?

    [*]Berserker is the best perk at taking care of himself. High movement speed coupled no clot grabbing lets dodge just about everything and move in and out of battle when he wants. He doesn't need cover from anyone on suicidal to be successful.

    Again, watch how Devante plays berserker. I sure don't any of these weaknesses you listed in his game.

    "Best perk at taking care of himself" assumes you play like devante and never make bad decisions. I feel like I'm beating a dead horse now.


    The only thing that would have stopped him would have been Entangler's suggestions to the FP rage mechanic. Even then, for a guy like that, he probably would have come up with something to counter it with door welding or other ideas along that line. Bottom line is, when you play as well as Devante does, given the current game mechanics, you will only lose from making a bad choice.

    I agree with this. But, doesn't this apply to any class? I think what you mean is that you won't lose soloing if you don't make a bad choice. Do you really think a zerker who is dedicated to tanking will leave all of his team-mates to die just because he wants to survive and solo all the rest of the enemies? I would see a guy that does this repeatedly, and in doing so, abandons his team-mates, as quite irritating.
 
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@bstm300
A vote does very little. Who cares if 90% of people think that 'zerker is not overpowered? By creating a structured argument and defending it, you have a better chance of persuading people, including TWI who have the final say in whatever happens to the game.

Also stop block quoting; it's annoying to have a page with 5 or 6 replies on it. Either use the at(@) to address arguments at people or type plainly, since it is obvious if you are making an argument or attacking the previous poster's argument.

I don't appreciate you disparaging the voting system, given it's a tool that is often used on the forums here. A vote, given that both sides can't agree and all possible arguments have been made, is often the best way to settle a debate. I'll try to be a little more careful about block quoting in the future. More to the point, I do agree with the weight change you suggest for the katana which would preclude some of the more unfair class, non-class zerker weapon combinations. Oh and yes, I did watch devante's video. He got extremely lucky at 5:24 that a husk didn't blast his butt off as it is what usually happens in those moments. I also don't understand how those 3 fp's (from 7:00 minutes-8:00 minutes) don't auto-rage on him like they used to. The fp-rage mechanic should be changed to prevent zerkers from running away endlessly like devante does. They should just auto-rage every 15 seconds or so. Anyways, I guess that's just his playing style. Personally, I don't like it. I prefer to meet the enemy head on and use running away as my last resort. I don't like running marathon's, and that entire video felt like one.
 
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@nutter
You'd be right except...
Me said:
Melee weapons other than the katana are reasonable weighted for their effectiveness
Granted Axe would probably become weapon of choice if katana was 7 units, but at 5 it is a decent trade-off between the two. Reducing the carrying capacity of berserkers would just make the katana even more necessary to carry.

And eliminating armor doesn't really change the zerker much. I only really buy it as a zerker after wave 4 and only because all the other player usually have full loadout and I don't have anything to spend my money on, granted I play zerker very little (mostly firebug, commando, or support).

I still maintain that it would be very hard to modify the zerker's versatility without neutering it and that it is really only an issue with players that are exceptionally good. This seems to be a very weak issue since most perks are very good when handled by players that know what they are doing. Zerker is only unique in that it has endurance and survivability to finish a 6man wave solo.

The best way to address that is give melee weapons durability that diminishes the damage that the weapon does so that at zero durability the weapon would marginal damage. Repairing your weapons would take the place of buying ammo. But this time consuming to implement and questionable effective.
 
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@bstm3000, Timur

You can play commando as well as Deafmute does, but what happens when a scrake or fleshpound shows up? As good as you are mowing down mobs, you are helpless against the 2 big guys unless you happen to have enough money to buy pipe bombs or decide to trade the AK for an M32 or LAR. Actually, with the new scrake and fleshpound mechanics, you have pretty much 0 chance or dropping them without taking a damaging hit. When we were playing beta over the weekend, Novfanion and I would help her deal with scrakes while she mowed down mobs. There were 2 instances where neither of us could get over to her because there was a fleshpound we were dealing with. Guess what happened to Deafmute? A similar comparison can be made with firebug.

With demolitions, you obliterate everything with your explosives, except Mr. Friendly Scrake. You can do everything right with your pipe bomb placement, ammo management, etc. However, when a scrake shows up, he just wades right through your sea of explosions. Add in the fact that the katana will be near useless against scrakes, and you have quite a problem. Also, he is terrible at defending himself up close and must trade one of his grenade launchers or pipe bomb slot for a serviceable weapon.

You can construct similar pros and cons with all the other perks. They all have some kind of limiting factor to their effectiveness no matter how good of a player you are:

  • sharpshooter (ideally) - crowd control
  • support - expensive weapons, ammo, and long reload time
  • medic - no weapon bonuses save for a bigger mp7m mag, clot grab instantly negates his speed, sirens hit through armor
  • commando and firebug - scrake and fleshpound
  • demo - cost, scrakes, and close quarters fighting
You say a narrow hallway limits the berserker? Guess what? It also limits the horde as well forcing them to come at you from 1 or 2 directions. Not to mention you can move forward and back to create the space you need. Getting cornered results from either the zerker staying in 1 place too long or the spawn system drops something nasty on him. The first is a result of a judgment error, the latter is out of his control.

Again, take Devante out and put in the best player you know of any other perk. Regardless of that person's skill, the 3 fleshpounds would have wiped him/her out and it's simply because other perks do not have universal damage resistance and/or super speed to keep running.

@Nutter,
Support doesn't move any slower than the other perks. The speed reduction from your carry weight is a ratio of your current carry weight to your max carry weight. A support carrying 24/24 blocks doesn't move any slower than someone else carrying 15/15.
 
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I still maintain that it would be very hard to modify the zerker's versatility without neutering it and that it is really only an issue with players that are exceptionally good. This seems to be a very weak issue since most perks are very good when handled by players that know what they are doing. Zerker is only unique in that it has endurance and survivability to finish a 6man wave solo.

Most everyone says that I want to nerf the zerker. Far from it. What I want to do is focus the zerker. Everyone says that that the big disadvantage is it has to get close to attack. Let's make it that way.

Make the zerker melee only except for their grenades and 9mm.
Zerker can run faster than every other perk? Give them a reason why they can. Cut their carrying capacity.
Want to give them a significant damage reduction? Make their attacks faster? Keep them from equipping armor.
Maybe only let them equip melee and pistols?
Institute some form of friendly fire.
Do something that prevents the zerker from being able to fire their top tier weapons with no reduction in damage and no pausing.
Make the melee a spend cash to maintain his weapons like everyone else. Or any reason to spend cash each wave.
At least raise the prices so the zerker can't get his top tiered weapon simply by logging in the game.
Eliminate the ridiculous auto-fire for bladed weapons.
I don't know. But right now the zerker has no realistic weaknesses.


You can play commando as well as Deafmute does, but what happens when a scrake or fleshpound shows up?

Since the commando is all about rapid fire, and since the SCAR just got nerfed, I wouldn't mind seeing the commando getting a running speed increase. Maybe 1% faster per level. Nothin huge, but noticeable.

And since the medic has an mp7, their crazy speed bonus should be nerfed. There is no reason a medic with armor should be a better zerker than the zerker.
 
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Nutter and scary ghost, I do agree with your arguments now. Making the zerker be meelee only may be a bit drastic, but it is ultimately necessary to the keep the game more balanced. Why don't we implement Akame's durability idea to keep the zerker from having 100% weapons every round he plays? I also agree with you that the auto-attack option for blades should be removed. You shouldn't be allowed to just click and be rewarded for spamming endlessly. As for the carrying capacity being reduced, I'm not too sure about that. I think making the zerker meelee-only should be sufficient enough to take care of any advantages he has of using non-perk weapons. A capacity reduction would be over-kill.
 
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Personally, I think that everyone secretly wants the zerker to be OP. Everyone wants to be the guy that can wade singlehandedly into the specimens and slice and dice. Everyone secretly wants to be the player that can stop the biggest mobs with a blade and saves the game when every one else dies during the wave. I'll admit playing up close with a katana somehow seems more enjoyable that simply firing and reloading a rifle. It is more challenging and it feels like "real work" is being done.

Even if everyone likes that whole Dynasty Warriors-type "I can cut through anything" sorta Zerker, the fact that 99.99% of players will stop playing LONG before reaching anything resembling the level of, say, Scary Ghost or Devante invalidates this argument. To all but 10 or 20 Zerkers, he is balanced and difficult to really do well with.


Edit: To add to that, it's absurd to suggest a nerf for those 10 or 20 Berserkers who've reached the highest echelon of their class when such a change would also make gameplay more difficult for the other thousands of Zerkers who find the perk balanced just fine. That'd be like lengthening the fence distance for all baseball fields in the world because major leaguers hit home runs too easily. That would also be a simile to use against "balancing games for the best players", the problem is that while you can adjust the length of each individual baseball diamond or the height of each individual basketball rim, in most competitive FPS/RTS/Fighting game everyone is playing the same video game. Everyone must play with the same Ryu & Sagat, the same Protoss/Terran/Zerg, the same DeDust & Deagle. Hence why people argue game balance so much, balance is not necessarily a "one size fits all" matter.


/tangent
 
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NutterButter, it sounds like you completely misread the stuff about covering the team. "Doing laps around the map" wasn't an example of "keeping away from teammates", but rather of "unlimited space into which to retreat". I'm making a distinction between two quite different scenarios: one, when he is defending the team, and two, when he is running away. The "defending the team" one is the "covering" I've been talking about - i.e. when he stands out in front of the team's formation to draw all the specimens from that direction to himself, so that they try to attack him instead of his squishier, less mobile teammates - and it is actually how Berserkers generally spend most of the game. I'm not entirely sure what you thought I was saying, but it sounds like you expect - or that you think I expect - Berserkers to be running away most of the time, or at least staying a long way away from everyone else, even while their team still lives; but that isn't what I actually said at all.

When I say that the defending Berserker's mobility is limited, I'm not talking about the map layout, or how well he can break formation and run away if the need arises. I'm talking about how far he can retreat while dodging attacks before he ceases to be doing his job. Whenever the specimens he's supposed to be baiting reach the rest of the team, he is not doing his job. Given that he doesn't kill the specimens as quickly as the sweeper perks do, if he doesn't at least consistently keep them away from the others, he isn't contributing in any meaningful fashion, and should probably be replaced with a Commando. So, in order to keep doing his job as defender, he has to hold his ground to some extent - even when it's not in his own best interests. And holding his ground for the team's benefit is what limits his mobility, and thus what brings in the weaknesses.

Now, he could just run away whenever that becomes a problem... if he doesn't mind ****ing over his team. If he deserts the team at the drop of a hat, even when the team is otherwise holding out just fine, he is more of a liability than a help. And if you balance him on the assumption that he will always run away, even when he shouldn't, he will end up being poor at everything else - essentially dead weight until he starts running. Is that really what you want?

I do think his solo kiting ability is too strong right now; that's why my suggestions are specifically geared towards toning it down without otherwise affecting him. Yours, on the other hand, are blanket nerfs that will reduce his effectiveness in areas where it isn't needed.

Your explanation of how Berserkers should manage a fatigue system is lacking. It's not as simple as "just save resources". If he has to stop attacking in the middle of a fight, he will be hit, every time. When you're standing out the front and half of the active specimens are targeting, it's a rare moment when you can actually afford to stop attacking. A fatigue system is implicitly a nerf to his ability to hold the line, which is unnecessary, and a push towards always running away.

Yes, games often end with the team being overrun. But until that end comes, the team is not being overrun most of the time, despite frequent reloading. So reloading is a risk, but usually not a big one, and nowhere near as much of one as any equivalent "energy replenishment" for melee would be.

What do you mean by "20% physical"? What kind of damage are you saying should not be covered? Fire?

Weight capacity reduction: No. It's yet another change that, while designed to hinder soloing, also unnecessarily impacts on other roles. Fire Axe + Chainsaw and Katana + Chainsaw are much less effective loadouts for soloing than Fire Axe + Katana + LAR; having a change aimed at cutting down on soloing render them unusable is both ironic and unnecessary.

Still, you are partially right about Fire Axe + Katana + LAR being too flexible - hence my movement speed suggestion, the purpose of which is to make taking a full kit a conscious tradeoff: what you gain in flexibility, you lose, somewhat, in the ability to fulfill traditional Berserker roles. Here's a somewhat more refined version of that: For each point of carry weight over the 10th, the movement speed bonus is reduced by 10%. For a level 6 Berserker with (in beta) a base movement speed bonus of 30%, carrying a full load reduces it to 15%. So if you choose to give yourself a strong ranged attack, outrunning the horde becomes much harder, and you can't dodge attacks as reliably. Plus, it doesn't affect Chainsaw loadouts very much, because they mostly use the Chainsaw for cutting down hordes, with which you don't get the movement speed bonus anyway. Sounds all fair to me.

You haven't given a solid gameplay-oriented reason why Berserkers shouldn't be allowed to wear armour, so no. It sounds like "just a nerf". Besides, it's a good money sink.

Still a no vote for weapon durability and/or Chainsaw fuel, too. Mindless spamming just isn't as effective as you seem to think, especially without the beta's silly damage resistance buff, though at this stage I admit it looks like that isn't going anywhere. And the FP rage mechanic change would do a lot to curtail soloing lots of Flesh Pounds by itself, as would the health scaling change (by making a dangerous task take longer, thus more exposure to the danger). If killing multiple Flesh Pounds as a Berserker is still too easy after those changes, then we can talk about the Berserker's proficiency at it - but somehow I doubt it.
 
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NutterButter, it sounds like you completely misread the stuff about covering the team. "Doing laps around the map" wasn't an example of "keeping away from teammates", but rather of "unlimited space into which to retreat". I'm making a distinction between two quite different scenarios: one, when he is defending the team, and two, when he is running away. The "defending the team" one is the "covering" I've been talking about - i.e. when he stands out in front of the team's formation to draw all the specimens from that direction to himself, so that they try to attack him instead of his squishier, less mobile teammates - and it is actually how Berserkers generally spend most of the game. I'm not entirely sure what you thought I was saying, but it sounds like you expect - or that you think I expect - Berserkers to be running away most of the time, or at least staying a long way away from everyone else, even while their team still lives; but that isn't what I actually said at all.

When I say that the defending Berserker's mobility is limited, I'm not talking about the map layout, or how well he can break formation and run away if the need arises. I'm talking about how far he can retreat while dodging attacks before he ceases to be doing his job. Whenever the specimens he's supposed to be baiting reach the rest of the team, he is not doing his job. Given that he doesn't kill the specimens as quickly as the sweeper perks do, if he doesn't at least consistently keep them away from the others, he isn't contributing in any meaningful fashion, and should probably be replaced with a Commando. So, in order to keep doing his job as defender, he has to hold his ground to some extent - even when it's not in his own best interests. And holding his ground for the team's benefit is what limits his mobility, and thus what brings in the weaknesses.

Now, he could just run away whenever that becomes a problem... if he doesn't mind ****ing over his team. If he deserts the team at the drop of a hat, even when the team is otherwise holding out just fine, he is more of a liability than a help. And if you balance him on the assumption that he will always run away, even when he shouldn't, he will end up being poor at everything else - essentially dead weight until he starts running. Is that really what you want?

I do think his solo kiting ability is too strong right now; that's why my suggestions are specifically geared towards toning it down without otherwise affecting him. Yours, on the other hand, are blanket nerfs that will reduce his effectiveness in areas where it isn't needed.

Your explanation of how Berserkers should manage a fatigue system is lacking. It's not as simple as "just save resources". If he has to stop attacking in the middle of a fight, he will be hit, every time. When you're standing out the front and half of the active specimens are targeting, it's a rare moment when you can actually afford to stop attacking. A fatigue system is implicitly a nerf to his ability to hold the line, which is unnecessary, and a push towards always running away.

Yes, games often end with the team being overrun. But until that end comes, the team is not being overrun most of the time, despite frequent reloading. So reloading is a risk, but usually not a big one, and nowhere near as much of one as any equivalent "energy replenishment" for melee would be.

What do you mean by "20% physical"? What kind of damage are you saying should not be covered? Fire?

Weight capacity reduction: No. It's yet another change that, while designed to hinder soloing, also unnecessarily impacts on other roles. Fire Axe + Chainsaw and Katana + Chainsaw are much less effective loadouts for soloing than Fire Axe + Katana + LAR; having a change aimed at cutting down on soloing render them unusable is both ironic and unnecessary.

Still, you are partially right about Fire Axe + Katana + LAR being too flexible - hence my movement speed suggestion, the purpose of which is to make taking a full kit a conscious tradeoff: what you gain in flexibility, you lose, somewhat, in the ability to fulfill traditional Berserker roles. Here's a somewhat more refined version of that: For each point of carry weight over the 10th, the movement speed bonus is reduced by 10%. For a level 6 Berserker with (in beta) a base movement speed bonus of 30%, carrying a full load reduces it to 15%. So if you choose to give yourself a strong ranged attack, outrunning the horde becomes much harder, and you can't dodge attacks as reliably. Plus, it doesn't affect Chainsaw loadouts very much, because they mostly use the Chainsaw for cutting down hordes, with which you don't get the movement speed bonus anyway. Sounds all fair to me.

You haven't given a solid gameplay-oriented reason why Berserkers shouldn't be allowed to wear armour, so no. It sounds like "just a nerf". Besides, it's a good money sink.

Still a no vote for weapon durability and/or Chainsaw fuel, too. Mindless spamming just isn't as effective as you seem to think, especially without the beta's silly damage resistance buff, though at this stage I admit it looks like that isn't going anywhere. And the FP rage mechanic change would do a lot to curtail soloing lots of Flesh Pounds by itself, as would the health scaling change (by making a dangerous task take longer, thus more exposure to the danger). If killing multiple Flesh Pounds as a Berserker is still too easy after those changes, then we can talk about the Berserker's proficiency at it - but somehow I doubt it.

cooldown run button = berserker fix
 
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