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MGs a bit underperforming?

Yes. It's called focus.

I could launch into a long-winded explanation about how the human eye has a much greater resolution than your computer monitor, and FPSs as a rule run from a very zoomed out perspective, and the zoom in RO2 compensates for this inability to show objects in their actual size by zooming your screen when you go to aim, but I've explained it dozens of times in other threads, and I'm tired of explaining it.

The zoom is actually a LOT more realistic than RO1, which played out from a very zoomed out perspective. By zooming in, RO2 lets you hit targets that any half-decent shot could reasonably hit in real life.

Absolutely wrong.
your eye does not see better at the distance when focusing, you can only sharpen what you see a tiny bit, which could be simulated with depth blur. Increasing the zoom level is not realistic.
 
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Absolutely wrong.
your eye does not see better at the distance when focusing, you can only sharpen what you see a tiny bit, which could be simulated with depth blur. Increasing the zoom level is not realistic.

*Sigh*

Right, the wordy explanation.

First off, a real set of ironsights and what it looks like looking down those sights:

1001228mediumyp7.jpg


As you can see, the camera (like the human eye) blurs out the rifle and focuses on the target farther down range. The human eye performs a similar feat, bringing distant features into focus. However, it is impossible for a computer monitor to provide the proper depth of field. Even if we're trying to aim at a target far away in game, our real human eyes are still focusing on a computer monitor less than 2 feet in front of them. Without zoom, we end up pixel hunting, like in ROOST:

8-2880_2.jpg


We have no way to focus on targets in the distance, and so everything looks zoomed out. It's very difficult to judge in-game distances. 50m feels like 100m, 100m feels like 200m, and 200m feels like 500m. It skews our perceptions and makes it impossible to pull off real-life shots in the game engine. So, the developers of yore added weapon sway and bullet spread to compensate for the limited sight (and engagement) distances. It was hardly a realistic solution, but it worked for the time.

In comes RO2:

20110819130756.jpg


Now take a good hard look at these pictures and tell me which one is most accurately simulating the real human eye. To make up for the fact that we're still looking at a monitor 2 feet away from our heads, the camera zooms in, bringing distant targets into focus like our real, human eyes would at those distances. Zoomed out, the game is trying to give us peripheral vision, but when we take aim it sacrifices the peripheral to accurately represent visual distances.

Are you starting to understand now?
 
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Mgs are primary made to shoot many rifle bullets at long range and kill. Suppression is a secondary effect which only matters because of the fear of death. MGs are not designed to have the bullets spray around the enemy so he cowers in fear. The first intent is to hit and kill. A near miss is still a terrifying adn useful effect for teh attacker but its not the main purpose of it.


This is not quite true. Yes, MG's are MORE accurate than rifles. They have heavier barrels and weigh more and thus recoil is less of a problem as is barrel shake. With controlled bursts of 1 to 3 rounds, you should be able to hit anything a rifleman can hit... and more. Longer barrels on many MG's also mean higher velocity with all that entails.

Having said that, the MG is a bit of a multi-purpose tool. That is why they have started giving them "sub-genres" like Light Machine Gun and Squad Automatic Weapon. They are the same concept, just used in specific roles unlike the General Purpose Machine Gun. A SAW or LMG is used in a front-line assault role, where the goal is to kill lots of enemies quickly.

But Heavy MG's (like the .50 Cal M-2) and GPMGs are also used as long range support weapons and they are even used in the indirect fire role like a mortar. In fact the FN GPMG the Brits used to use had a tripod mount that could take a mortar sight so it could be aimed over obstacles at extreme range simply for harassing and interdiction fire. So yes, MG's are used as killing machines, but they are also used to control the flow of battle, channel the enemy or prevent his movement through an area.

The problem is, gamers don't really know the difference between the roles. They want to run up to the very forward edge of the battle and shoot individuals, but then expect to have the same kind of safety as someone a mile back using indirect area fire to suppress the enemy without necessarily killing anyone.

Both roles are valid, but you have to play them a different way. The former involves being close and moving often... maybe firing a 3 round burst or two before relocating. The latter involves finding a secure location with good coverage of the battlefield that can be held for a longer period of time that is outside the effective range of the rifleman. The idea is enemies have to push through the front line before they can get a good shot at the fixed MG locations.

Of course the map design has to allow for longer ranges if you are going to use the MG in the heavy support role. You can't up sticks and run with a heavy tripod... you need a whole crew to do it, so you really need to be at least 200m back from the front line preferably in an overwatch position, and so far there aren't a lot of places on any of these maps that I have found where you can do that.

So, basically, the type of support the OP is talking about might not be possible with the current maps. You simply can't find a safe enough position, while still being able to dominate the battlefield.

That means being able to stop somewhere and kill lots of enemies with an MG is not going to be very successful. You have to fight like an assault gunner, not a support gunner. Fire and movement. Cover and concealment. Once you shoot from one location, the whole world knows you're there, so move. Find somewhere else nearby and wait for all the dumb enemies to start shooting at where you were. Then kill them.

I'm not the only one that has no problem with the MG's so clearly its NOT the MG's themselves. It's the way you're using them, IMHO.
 
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From my experience, the MGs in RO are mostly good for hiding somewhere and shooting incoming people before they get a chance to react. Using locigal MG placements(sandbags nest, windows) will get you killed real fast.


Really? Last night I was playing barracks as a Soviet gunner. I was running between those buildings where the trenches are and came upon a German hiding in one of the trenches, about 9m away. I managed to prone before his first shot which missed high... but my gun wouldn't deploy because I was in a bit of a corner. I then managed to move to my left a foot, just as he fired his second shot. Then the gun deployed and I put three rounds centre-mass as he fired the 3rd shot. He died. I bandaged and moved on.

This rifleman was IN the trench crouched facing the other way when I came round the corner. All he had to do was turn and shoot. And HE ended up dead. The guy's first shot missed because he reacted too slowly. His second hit my arm because I moved. The third missed wild as he died. Not one of my shots missed, and you would think I was at a major disadvantage.

So yeah, the MG is fine. You're just using it wrong.
 
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I'm not the only one that has no problem with the MG's so clearly its NOT the MG's themselves. It's the way you're using them, IMHO.

Wholly agreed. I played four whole rounds with them today on Barracks, and while the first two were frustrating, the second two convinced me that those who aren't picking them are plain old missing out. For the most part. In my opinion, the only needed tweaks are:

--the ability to break from cover while crouching with the machine gun without raising one's head
--faster crouching and standing
--better deployment

No need for crazy penetration, accuracy, recoil reduction...

But even with the abovementioned weaknesses in mind, the MGs are still DEADLY.

I heard the talk of nerfed MGs with sadness in my heart and immediately decided to test it out as a Russian MGer on a full 64 player Barracks server.

The first round went badly--German riflemen and marksmen near the political school would pop a hole in my head at range before I'd even finished deploying. We lost terribly.

The second round went very much the same way as I found the "can't deploy here" notifications extremely detrimental to my health. Using the few deploy-friendly locations on the Political-school side of the Admin Building, I didn't have enough different positions to elude the German jaegers, who had about eight windows, a trench, and a shady alleyway and balcony to shoot from.

In the third round, instead of deploying only to get shot, I would crouch, hit deploy, then immediately crouch again. Using the W key to peek over cover for an instant, I would locate the pesky rifleman, then duck back down, wait for a few seconds, then hit deploy, immediately aiming towards the last known position of the rifleman and firing in his immediate area. The suppresion prevented him from responding quickly, while I could refine my aim, riddle the German, then duck down, leave cover, and change locations. In this way, I could match the riflemen kill for kill, only dying when they shot me through cover or while the game clumsily made me stand up while leaving cover.

In the fourth round, however, things changed.

The Mess Hall and the buildings east of the infirmary held several excellent firing positions, all providing perfect views of the streets between the NCO Barracks and Infirmary, and the field behind the infirmary. From those positions, I could wait for sprinting Germans to appear, firing at their smoke-shrouded silhouettes with proper lead. Few ever discovered what direction they'd been hit from. As soon as I took enemy fire, I would relocate my weapon, wait for things to cool down, then resume firing. Any time a head appeared in a window, a quick burst sent him scurrying for cover, and a second blew straight through his puny brick/mortar wall. On the occasions I was outflanked, the DP-28 served admirably in the close-combat role. End result? See the screenshots below.

I can't imagine an MG34 doing any worse.

There's no doubt about it. Machine guns remain the buzz saw of the battlefield. The learning curve is high, true, but for an Ostfront player who appreciates the new crouch feature and can control recoil with that smooth rearwards crawl of the mouse, it won't take more than a few rounds to pick up.
 

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But most of the time he will have a hard time to kill one guy with all the recoil, while the other guy can shoot the MG.

PROTIP: Let go of the trigger. just because you CAN fire a whole belt at once, doesn't mean you SHOULD fire a whole belt at once.

3 round bursts. When I was in Corp training learning the gun, that is what we were told. Only heavy support MG's fire whole belts at once, and they take a crew to operate.

Take that MG and aim it at the lowest point of the enemy you can see: his knees or feet for example. Then tap the trigger so that no more than 3 rounds are fired. First round will hit what you're aiming at, the second will hit him in the chest, and the third will go high unless you are good at recoil compensation.

Then you rinse and repeat. Drop the sights again to the low point and give another squirt. Keep doing that over and over again for every guy you see. Don't aim for the head because you WILL miss more often than not. Centre-mass is the goal, aiming low initially makes sure most of the bullets have a chance to hit the centre. You walk the rounds onto the target, rather than walking them off it.

The other reason for a three round burst is that its harder to pinpoint a short burst of fire. You know someone shot at you, but not necessarily where from and with what. Do it right and they won't even know you have an MG until they are dead.

That is how I know so many guys do not know how to use an MG properly. They FIGHT the recoil, rather than USING it. They fire long bursts, then wonder why they get shot.

None of this is particular to RO2. It's how REAL MG's are supposed to be used. It works in the game because it works in real life. Try it and see.
 
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I found that the Mess Hall and the buildings east of the infirmary held several excellent firing positions, all providing perfect views of the streets between the NCO Barracks and Infirmary, and the field behind the infirmary. From those positions, I could wait for sprinting Germans to appear, firing at their smoke-shrouded silhouettes with proper lead. Few ever discovered what direction they'd been hit from. As soon as I took enemy fire, I would relocate my weapon, wait for things to cool down, then resume firing. Any time a head appeared in a window, a quick burst sent him scurrying for cover, and a second blew straight through his puny brick/mortar wall. On the occasions I was outflanked, the DP-28 served admirably in the close-combat role. End result? See the screenshots below.

Those buildings are pretty much the best examples I can think of of good spot for MGs to be positioned at. They have lots of covers, things like tables you can use to setup your MG in more concealed position than window frame, window openings facing streets that majority of players have to cross to get to an objective, and no buildings that's directly facing you that's close enough to give riflemen to hide and take you out under cover.

I can't think of such spot for Grain Elevator map though. Hence why I think it's more of map issue than actual gun functionality.

MG by itself is pretty powerful, potent weapon. Just need the right spot to use it properly.
 
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I've fairly constantly scored top 5 if not top on barracks with the MG 34, and about the same on Grain Elevator. Before the new maps I would do the same in Apartments and Fallen Fighters(including countdown).
I'd have to agree that underperforming with MG's is a case of human error and not gameplay flaws.
 
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I can't think of such spot for Grain Elevator map though. Hence why I think it's more of map issue than actual gun functionality.
Grain elevator has decent positions for MG placement, granted it's harder to use one effectively in the first two territories(but there are a few I use when advancing). As for the grain elevator building itself, it has tons of good positions for MG placement that and make strips of floor killzones.

People must remember that, at least in my experience, good placement are areas that do not have a lot of LoS toward the enemy and enough you can cover effectively while still supporting advancing(or defending) troops.
Patience is also a huge factor in playing the role, as well as understanding where friendlies are positioned so you can obtain the most effective field of fire without it being too dangerous.

And as said, the crouch-while-deployed feature is extremely valuable, and if need be NEVER be afraid to relocate.

When I first played maps like Barracks, Grain Elevator, and Apartments. I always looked at the map after dying, seeing where friendly were, where territory boundaries were and where houses that would provide LoS on them were. By doing this I quickly found valuable positions as an MG gunner depending on the flow of the battle. I'd say understanding the map is one of the most important things when being a Machine Gunner.
 
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But realistic ww2 combat is aaaaaall about camping in the right spot.

Utter bollocks.

Camping is asking to be hammered with arty.

Ever heard of Blitzkrieg? Do you know why they called their strategy "lighting war"? It was about rapid movement and taking advantage of very small openings in real time, rather than stopping and waiting for perfect battle conditions. You hammer the enemy and keep hammering him so that he doesn't have time to think. If he stops in a hardened position, you bypass it and leave it for the heavy support wepons to deal with - a bunker is also a prison, if you know where it is.

The point is, any time you stop you become a target for indirect fire whether it be nades in close, mortars at stand-off range, or long range artillery and air strikes.

Defenders have one advantage... they choose the battleground. But they are also locked to that position. They have to stay there, or they are not defending. So the attacker's advantage is movement - NOT sitting around taking pot shots at an entrenched enemy.

A smart defender tries to overcome the disadvantage of being tied to one position by using aggressive patrolling to take the fight to the enemy before he can organise and stage a coordinated attack.

The point is, thanks to artillery and air power, static warfare ended in the trenches of WWI. In WWII, the generals that hadn't learned that lesson got a lot of their men killed.
 
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Really? Last night I was playing barracks as a Soviet gunner. I was running between those buildings where the trenches are and came upon a German hiding in one of the trenches, about 9m away. I managed to prone before his first shot which missed high... but my gun wouldn't deploy because I was in a bit of a corner. I then managed to move to my left a foot, just as he fired his second shot. Then the gun deployed and I put three rounds centre-mass as he fired the 3rd shot. He died. I bandaged and moved on.

This rifleman was IN the trench crouched facing the other way when I came round the corner. All he had to do was turn and shoot. And HE ended up dead. The guy's first shot missed because he reacted too slowly. His second hit my arm because I moved. The third missed wild as he died. Not one of my shots missed, and you would think I was at a major disadvantage.

So yeah, the MG is fine. You're just using it wrong.

Totally agree. The MG's effectiveness is based on the factual circumstance. There is nothing inherently wrong with it imho.

It's a squad-based weapon. If you solo with it, you're using it wrong.
 
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The second round went very much the same way as I found the "can't deploy here" notifications extremely detrimental to my health.

Another protip, and this one is a big thank you to TWI too:

Cover and concealment are not just about finding a rock or tree to hide behind. Sometimes just carefully noting the rise and fall of the landscape can allow you to run out into what looks like an empty field and still find a place to hide. Look around for low rises in the ground between you and the enemy, small dips. Nothing you can crouch behind, but if you go prone most of your body is below the apparent land surface.

Because you don't have stuff immediately around you, you can turn and shoot in any direction rapidly, and because there isn't an obvious wall or window, people can't figure out where you are. they look past you trying to find the MG in the window, while you are hiding in plain sight.

Think like a golfer reading the green. It LOOKS flat, but it isn't really and there is lots of what they call "dead ground" where you can kill loads of enemies without them even figuring out where you are.

Also, "around not over" find the low lying ground and stay in it, moving round the rises rather than over them. Crawl if you have to in order to stay below the horizon. This way you can move forward a bit, fire off a few bursts, move back and then sideways and then forward again to fire some more. The riflemen may be looking for you, but every time you move they have to start over.

This will change, if everyone learns this protip. In that case they will be looking for these sorts of hiding places rather than the type you're talking about, and won't be so easily fooled. But at the moment, I get most of my MG kills out in the open, not hiding in windows.

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I personally believe RO2 has the best MG system in any FPS. The fact it goes into ironsights when you go prone, rather than requiring two button pushes, means your first reaction when surprised should be to go prone. If you're like me, right now you keep hitting the IS button too, just to watch your gun deploy then go out of IS because the prone already made it go into IS.

Another thing and this REALLY helps with using the low lying ground as described above, if you are prone but try to sprint forward, the gunner will jump up, do a low run until you let go, then immediately prone and IS again. So you can sprint between the low lying areas and drop into them ready to fire. This is how I move around most of the time, from one prone position to another, sometimes only a few metres away, but that is enough to screw up a rifleman who saw you, covered then popped up to take a shot... you're not where he expected so it takes him a little longer to acquire you, giving you a chance to give him a few new holes.
 
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Really? Last night I was playing barracks as a Soviet gunner. I was running between those buildings where the trenches are and came upon a German hiding in one of the trenches, about 9m away. I managed to prone before his first shot which missed high... but my gun wouldn't deploy because I was in a bit of a corner. I then managed to move to my left a foot, just as he fired his second shot. Then the gun deployed and I put three rounds centre-mass as he fired the 3rd shot. He died. I bandaged and moved on.

This rifleman was IN the trench crouched facing the other way when I came round the corner. All he had to do was turn and shoot. And HE ended up dead. The guy's first shot missed because he reacted too slowly. His second hit my arm because I moved. The third missed wild as he died. Not one of my shots missed, and you would think I was at a major disadvantage.

So yeah, the MG is fine. You're just using it wrong.

Rifles are terrible at close ranges(if you're not a grizzled 1000 hours veteran that is) so it's not a surprise that you came out as victor. It's not a good example of "how MG's are fine".
 
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Utter bollocks.

Camping is asking to be hammered with arty.

Ever heard of Blitzkrieg? Do you know why they called their strategy "lighting war"? It was about rapid movement and taking advantage of very small openings in real time, rather than stopping and waiting for perfect battle conditions. You hammer the enemy and keep hammering him so that he doesn't have time to think. If he stops in a hardened position, you bypass it and leave it for the heavy support wepons to deal with - a bunker is also a prison, if you know where it is.

The point is, any time you stop you become a target for indirect fire whether it be nades in close, mortars at stand-off range, or long range artillery and air strikes.

Defenders have one advantage... they choose the battleground. But they are also locked to that position. They have to stay there, or they are not defending. So the attacker's advantage is movement - NOT sitting around taking pot shots at an entrenched enemy.

A smart defender tries to overcome the disadvantage of being tied to one position by using aggressive patrolling to take the fight to the enemy before he can organise and stage a coordinated attack.

The point is, thanks to artillery and air power, static warfare ended in the trenches of WWI. In WWII, the generals that hadn't learned that lesson got a lot of their men killed.

Blitzkrieg is strategy, not tactics. Nice try.
 
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Rifles are terrible at close ranges(if you're not a grizzled 1000 hours veteran that is) so it's not a surprise that you came out as victor. It's not a good example of "how MG's are fine".

I regularly kill SMGers in CQB with a bolt action rifle. It's not that hard. Movement is your enemy. So yeah I'm not saying that I would not have killed me if I was that rifleman... I'm saying that in that case I killed him, and it was not because the MG was over or under powered or anything... it simply had to do with who knew what they were doing better.

I won THAT fight. I usually do in FPS games. Doesn't matter if I'm carrying a pistol, bolt-action, SMG, semi-auto or MG. If you know how to use the tools, it doesn't matter what tools you use.
 
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