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The Full 1016 Balance Change Log

Firebug:
-Still joined at the hip with the Flamethrower. Makes the class relatively boring to play. And still 110% useless against anything bigger than a Gorefast. Flamethrower's damage becomes bad in Suicidal and almost insignificant in HoE. You'll run out of ammo halfway through a wave almost constantly, even firing in short bursts and using melee/9mm. All-in-all, NOT a viable class for harder difficulties at all!

Firebug is still stuck with the boring and ineffective (On harder levels) Flamethrower.

I'm only answering to this bit, because it riles me everytime I see it.

Firebug is a thinking mans perk. It is most definately NOT useless on bigger foes and its damage in most certainly NOT insignificant. You only run out of ammo if you're crap at using the perk.

Its may not suit everyone's style, alot of people remain adamant that the Commando is far better than the Firebug. I however can't use the Commando at all, I rarely survive a round as 1, but I can survive pretty much every wave (or be the sole survivor) as a Firebug quite easily. Furthermore I rest near the top of the scoreboard pretty much every game.

The reason is I know how the Firebug plays, there are alot of tricks that the FIrebug can employ to help himself and his team. I admit its not a perk for everyone, but it really grates my nerves when people say it is useless or underpowered. The fact is I will be extremely angry if there is even the slightest change to how the Firebug works, and I'll be damned if I'm going to let him be ruined by people who don't understand how to apply the perk properly. He is perfectly balanced and in the right hands serves his role extremely well.
 
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Berserker:
-Ah, my former favorite class... It's not unplayable anymore. It's just...a bad class. Chainsaw is a viable option and the Katana's auto-fire really helps stop click-spam finger fatigue. Damage reduction was ABSOLUTELY needed and allows you to last more than a few seconds on Suicidal/HoE.
-Still near useless on harder difficulties. Melee weapons are still largely single-target and don't do enough damage to drop things before you take at least a few hits. And on HoE, a few hits can be it for you, even as a Berserker. There's little the Berserker can do at close range that a Support can't do better with the addition of Shotgun AoE. The Katana having a slower rate of fire helps the enemies sneak hits in on you easier.
-Machete/Axe are still useless so it's still about Chainsaw and Katana. Katana is for mobility/hit and run, while the Chainsaw is about holding ground and taking down hordes, but honestly, neither one does spectacular damage for the risk you take at close range.
-Both Chainsaw and Katana alt-fires need their attack speed reduced but a BIG damage boost. They should be attacks you need to aim but when they hit, they HURT. As it is, you're almost better off spamming normal swings instead of alt-firing. Alt-fire should be what you use to take on bigger targets. As it is, Berserker is good vs Scrakes, but useless vs FPs.
-Suffers from the medic's problem of "No boosted ranged weapons", making it VERY hard to deal reliable damage on harder levels without taking a beating or dying, especially against Sirens/Husks, but also against Crawlers. All-in-all, an extremely challenging class to play, but not hugely rewarding anymore. Not really a class I like to use these days.
No.

The damage resistance buff was not needed. If you "take a few hits" every time you engage, you're doing it wrong; my guess is that you don't dodge enough. All the damage resistance buff really did was make the Berserker more forgiving. Considering what it can accomplish when played well, it needn't allow itself to be played poorly.

Now that the Chainsaw is back, it's the closest thing to AoE that the Berserker will ever need. It mows down lessers at a respectable pace and doesn't stop. That the other weapons don't flatten hordes as quickly is a fair trade for their other benefits. The Katana's reduced rate of fire is an annoyance, but not a show-stopper - it still does its job.

That you would seriously call the Fire Axe "useless" in today's KF casts serious doubt on your claim of "Hard and up". If you really did play on difficulties above Hard, you'd already know why. And the Machete is not a primary weapon - its weight was reduced to make it more viable as a Knife upgrade off-perk, and it worked. Berserkers would only want to use it either when they're too low-levelled to afford a Katana, or to afford them some semblance of mobility with the unwieldy Chainsaw + Fire Axe combo.

The Chainsaw and Katana's secondary attacks both decapitate Husks and Sirens in one hit. They don't need to be any more powerful than that. They're not meant for killing Scrakes any more. And "useless vs FPs" is a joke. How do you suppose people got the "Crack the Nutcracker" achievement? There's a technique for killing Flesh Pounds without taking a hit, and it isn't very hard to do. Go and learn it.

The de-facto standard ranged weapon for Berserkers is the LAR, which kills Crawlers in one body shot off-perk on any difficulty, and Husks and Sirens in two headshots (stunning the Husk with the first). He doesn't need any better ranged attacks than that.

All in all, it is a challenging class to play, but you don't yet know how to overcome that challenge. Once you master it, you'll realise just how rewarding it really is.
 
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You sure katanaa alt-fire can one-shot husks and sirens on 6-man HoE?
Yes, albeit just barely. Here are the numbers:

Husk/Siren base head health = 200
Husk/Siren head health player count scale = 0.05
Difficulty multiplier = 1.75
Total = 200 * (1 + 0.05 * 5) * 1.75 = 437.5

Katana alt fire base damage = 205
Katana headshot damage multiplier = 1.1
Perk bonus = 2
Total = 205 * 1.1 * 2 = 451
 
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I'm only answering to this bit, because it riles me everytime I see it.

Firebug is a thinking mans perk. It is most definately NOT useless on bigger foes and its damage in most certainly NOT insignificant. You only run out of ammo if you're crap at using the perk.

Its may not suit everyone's style, alot of people remain adamant that the Commando is far better than the Firebug. I however can't use the Commando at all, I rarely survive a round as 1, but I can survive pretty much every wave (or be the sole survivor) as a Firebug quite easily. Furthermore I rest near the top of the scoreboard pretty much every game.

The reason is I know how the Firebug plays, there are alot of tricks that the FIrebug can employ to help himself and his team. I admit its not a perk for everyone, but it really grates my nerves when people say it is useless or underpowered. The fact is I will be extremely angry if there is even the slightest change to how the Firebug works, and I'll be damned if I'm going to let him be ruined by people who don't understand how to apply the perk properly. He is perfectly balanced and in the right hands serves his role extremely well.

If you're doing good at Firebug, you'd likely do even better at Demoman or Commando if you learned how to play them. I'm not saying the Firebug is bad by itself. I'm just saying that once it hits Suicidal/HoE, you have to expend so much ammo to do decent damage that you'll usually have trouble lasting through half of a later wave.

It's not a terrible perk and it can do quite a bit of damage, but when you hit HoE, you become more of a liability to the team than much else. On Hard and below, the Firebug is amazing if you can play it well, but above those...it doesn't do much but burn Crawlers, Clots, and Stalkers...which is something the Commando can do just as well without the fire obscuring Sharpshooters.

My biggest issue is that you're almost completely stuck to the Flamethrower and that takes up 11 Blocks. And the natural second gun is the MAC-10, which fills your loadout. Not a lot of variety or choices to make.



In fact now the machete is for other perks to fill the 1kg unused weight.

Meleeing as any class but Berserker is pretty much a death sentence on harder levels, so it's still worthless in my book.

And axe one-shot husks and sirens on 6-man HoE (and suicidal) while katane cannot.

The Katana CAN 1-shot Husks and Sirens with a head hit if you alt-fire. And it has a faster attack speed than the Axe by a good bit.



No.
The damage resistance buff was not needed. If you "take a few hits" every time you engage, you're doing it wrong; my guess is that you don't dodge enough. All the damage resistance buff really did was make the Berserker more forgiving. Considering what it can accomplish when played well, it needn't allow itself to be played poorly.

With Sirens, Husks, and the ever-present crawlers, you're going to take damage and on the higher levels, any damage is significant. Without the damage resistance buff, Zerkers would be dead almost all the time on HoE.


That you would seriously call the Fire Axe "useless" in today's KF casts serious doubt on your claim of "Hard and up". If you really did play on difficulties above Hard, you'd already know why. And the Machete is not a primary weapon - its weight was reduced to make it more viable as a Knife upgrade off-perk, and it worked. Berserkers would only want to use it either when they're too low-levelled to afford a Katana, or to afford them some semblance of mobility with the unwieldy Chainsaw + Fire Axe combo.

No class but Berserker should really be melee'ing. Point blank 9mm headshots are more effective. The Fire Axe is great at stunning Scrakes, yeah, but when you could be a Sharpshooter and 1 or 2-shot them with a Crossbow, it's pretty useless in comparison.

And "useless vs FPs" is a joke. How do you suppose people got the "Crack the Nutcracker" achievement? There's a technique for killing Flesh Pounds without taking a hit, and it isn't very hard to do. Go and learn it.

Most people that I asked got "Crack the Nutcracker" by playing on Beginner and knifing an FP to death... But yeah, I'm aware of the insta-decap trick. It's been around forever and ANY class can do it. In fact, I'd say it's almost easier to do with the Commando's Bullpup. However, it's very situational. The Fleshpound has to be focused on you, has to do the right animation, and it's tricky to pull of with Sirens screaming and Husks shaking the ground.


All in all, it is a challenging class to play, but you don't yet know how to overcome that challenge. Once you master it, you'll realise just how rewarding it really is.

The "Challenge" of it still doesn't offset what it can do. In most cases, a Berserker would still be more of an asset to the team as a Sharpshooter or Commando. Having to be up close and STILL not doing comparable damage to other classes just doesn't work.





In other news, many players using the Baddest Santa skin are getting shot on Friendly Fire servers because he looks disturbingly like a Gorefast and gets a twitch reaction. Dr. Gary Glover feels his pain and would like to remind you that he isn't a Bloat.
 
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You are aware the instant decap trick was patched out long ago right? And no, no extra damage resistance was needed, 25% was plenty enough for zerkers who were able to keep their mistakes to a minimum.

YouTube - Killing Floor - Foundry Wave 10 + Patriarch on Suicidal With Berserkers

That is a team of zerkers running through old suicidal, which is equivalent to HoE in terms of specimen hp and damage dealt. We got by just fine with our 25% resistance . Fleshpounds, crawlers, sirens, and husks were all easily dealt with.

Zerkers who used katana / axe / lar before the balance changes only had to make minimal changes to their play style afterwards, and by minimal changes I mean using katana alt fire to take out sirens and husks instead of primary and using axe alt fire to kill fleshpounds instead of primary. That load out is the de-facto standard as it allows the zerker to deal with any specimen at any range and handle almost any situation. It is also ridiculously cheap to purchase and maintain so the zerker can give out the spare dosh to his teammates, like the poor demoman trying to buy pipe bombs.

Even with the back stab bug fixed, the zerker's max damage output is still the same. He just needs teammates to distract the target specimen so he can get the backstab. Think about this, axe alt fire to the head deals 1375 damage. That's a
 
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With Sirens, Husks, and the ever-present crawlers, you're going to take damage and on the higher levels, any damage is significant. Without the damage resistance buff, Zerkers would be dead almost all the time on HoE.
You do realise that HoE is actually the old Suicidal renamed, right? Specimen damage is the same on HoE as it used to be on Suicidal. 25% resistance was enough then, and it still would be now.

No class but Berserker should really be melee'ing. Point blank 9mm headshots are more effective. The Fire Axe is great at stunning Scrakes, yeah, but when you could be a Sharpshooter and 1 or 2-shot them with a Crossbow, it's pretty useless in comparison.
The Machete is half-decent for saving ammo or fending off lessers when you need to reload, and is also a passable primary on Normal, at least until the lowbie Berserker using it can afford a Katana. For the princely sum of
 
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Just a tiny heads up for TWI about these changes: I think you need to update the perk descriptions a little (as i pointed out in this thread: http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=48484).

If you are too lazy to look at that link i will put the stuff up here so you know what they are :p

(And like i said in that thread: "Just don't get me wrong about this, I'm LOVING this update SOOOO much... i'm just very (nit)picky with information being completely right :p")

So the small misses that would be nice to be corrected are:

Demolitons:
-Perk description misses in game-
* The LAW, LAW rockets, and Launcher Grenades discount bonus is not written in the perk description. (30% discount at level 6)
* The LAW gets an increased max-ammo bonus. (Only 10 rockets non-perked, but as level 6 demo the max amount is 22!)

Sharpshooter:
-Balance log errors here in the log-
* That Xbow bolts cost 3.3
 
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If you're doing good at Firebug, you'd likely do even better at Demoman or Commando if you learned how to play them. I'm not saying the Firebug is bad by itself. I'm just saying that once it hits Suicidal/HoE, you have to expend so much ammo to do decent damage that you'll usually have trouble lasting through half of a later wave.

I do see your arguement, in the right hands Commandos and Demo Experts are very good perks. However my play style is very much a hit and run style. Hit foes early and move away.

I have played Commando and Demoman. I levelled them both legit and have a good idea how they work. However both of them are my 2 least favourite perks. I simply cannot use them effectively, they just totally mis match my play style.

Compared to the Commando or Demo Expert, the Firebug has alot of abilities and tricks that it would seem few people know about or acknowledge. I'll try and bullet point a few.

Spoiler!


There are more things the Bug can be used for, but that gives you a good idea of how it plays. The perk in the right hands can truly be devastating, just like the Demoman and the Commando can. In my hands those 2 perks suck, but give me a flamethrower and **** just melts... and tbh I would accept no substitute :)
 
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The pipebombs were too cheap I totally understand why that needed to be changed but now they're just too bloody expensive. We've gone from one extreme to the other.... Have we not? Where is the logic in that? I have no idea how the creators don't see that mistake.

Pipe bombs are fine. I would even go as far to saying they need to be raised in price.

I played a hard game, 6 players with a level 2 demo, had NO problems affording the stuff I needed even with a much lower discount, and barely any money given to me from team players, I even died twice. And could still afford the stuff I needed.

I rarely play Demo. I'd hardly call myself a good Demo.

The people that complain they can't afford Pipe Bombs simply aren't playing properly, spamming shots at everything or something. Or are just too used to being fully loaded with pipe bombs by wave 3. That will not happen anymore, get used to it.
 
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Pipe bombs are fine. I would even go as far to saying they need to be raised in price.

I played a hard game, 6 players with a level 2 demo, had NO problems affording the stuff I needed even with a much lower discount, and barely any money given to me from team players, I even died twice. And could still afford the stuff I needed.

I rarely play Demo. I'd hardly call myself a good Demo.

The people that complain they can't afford Pipe Bombs simply aren't playing properly, spamming shots at everything or something. Or are just too used to being fully loaded with pipe bombs by wave 3. That will not happen anymore, get used to it.



Have you try suicidal and HoE? No?

Problem is not it is impossible to afford any pipes as demo (it is next to impossible non-perked). I myself ALWAYS able to have 2-3 AT LEAST at later waves on HoE. Problem is pipes totally DONT WORTH IT. It is too easy to be wasted (headless bloat, sirens, 2 gorefasts, 4 crawlers). And why should I buy a $195 worth pipe just for a bloody fleshpound? Even it explode right under once's feet, he still survive with very low hp while 5-6 M32 shots shut him down for good. It is way better to just share the money to teamates or buy hand granade instead.
 
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Have you try suicidal and HoE? No?

I was level 2....

But yes I have, during the beta, still never had any problems, a little bit of cash given to me maybe, but so what? Sharing is caring. Didn't even need the cash anyway.

Problem is not it is impossible to afford any pipes as demo (it is next to impossible non-perked). I myself ALWAYS able to have 2-3 AT LEAST at later waves on HoE. Problem is pipes totally DONT WORTH IT. It is too easy to be wasted (headless bloat, sirens, 2 gorefasts, 4 crawlers). And why should I buy a $195 worth pipe just for a bloody fleshpound? Even it explode right under once's feet, he still survive with very low hp while 5-6 M32 shots shut him down for good. It is way better to just share the money to teamates or buy hand granade instead.

You're using them wrong if you let a headless bloat detonate them, a bloat should never have a chance to be anywhere near your pipes if you use them correctly.

Pipes are fine, they do godlike damage and don't need to be buffed at all. 1 Demo pipe does a ridiculous amount of damage to an FP, saving you those 5 - 6 nade launcher shots you mentioned for other threats.
 
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You're using them wrong if you let a headless bloat detonate them, a bloat should never have a chance to be anywhere near your pipes if you use them correctly.

Unfortunately it's not that easy, since specimens can spawn right around a corner less than a few metres away and walk pretty far headless.

saving you those 5 - 6 nade launcher shots you mentioned for other threats.

But isn't it cheaper to buy 5-6 grenades? As well as the increased reliability it seems well worth it instead of buying pipe bombs.
 
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Unfortunately it's not that easy, since specimens can spawn right around a corner less than a few metres away and walk pretty far headless.

Wait for the right target to show up before you plant your bomb, that's how I've done it. And that's how I've been successful.

Once the ridiculous spawning issues are fixed then it should be even easier.

But isn't it cheaper to buy 5-6 grenades? As well as the increased reliability it seems well worth it instead of buying pipe bombs.

I think so, but like I said, using 1 Pipe Bomb will save you those precious 5-6 nades for threats that may appear later in the wave, you don't want to run out of nades later on in a 6 man HoE wave, so use a couple of Pipes instead.

I'm not saying they're better than the M32, but outofrealman seems to be implying Pipe Bombs are completely obsolete because of the M32, which is simply not the case.
 
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Wait for the right target to show up before you plant your bomb, that's how I've done it. And that's how I've been successful.

True, but on HoE enemies move very fast, and with a scrake or fleshpound appearing just around the corner it's very hard to get one out in time, especially considering the arming time.

Once the ridiculous spawning issues are fixed then it should be even easier.

Probably not going to happen any time soon unfortunately.

I think so, but like I said, using 1 Pipe Bomb will save you those precious 5-6 nades for threats that may appear later in the wave, you don't want to run out of nades later on in a 6 man HoE wave, so use a couple of Pipes instead.
.

True, although you could just leave a full M79 laying around if you're worried about running out of grenades. :p
 
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Pipes are a mess right now. They're hard to afford with the increased ammo price on the M-32.

Fully discounted, they cost $200, and unless you play on Normal, you're not likely to get $200 worth of kills out of the explosion, even if you save 'em for times when you really need to use 'em (As you should). If they cost $200, they should have something to let you control 'em better (IE: Manual detonation). Nothing sucks worse than laying a Pipe in front of an approaching Fleshpound, backing away...and having a trio of Crawlers or Clots hop onto the pipe and detonate it before the FP does. FP gets minimal if any damage, you got MAYBE $15 worth of kills from a $200 bomb, and the blast usually obscures the FP from teammates.

I agree that pipes were too cheap, but this seems to have gone in the other direction now, where they're so expensive that they're useless to non-demos and a very situation (And expensive!) item even for demos.

While we're talking about Demos...making the LAW light enough (For Demos ONLY) that the demo can carry it and anything else would really help it. Right now, it's for Patriarch waves only, typically, not only due to it not having enough ammo, but due to it practically filling your inventory and costing a fortune.


I do see your arguement, in the right hands Commandos and Demo Experts are very good perks. However my play style is very much a hit and run style. Hit foes early and move away.

I have played Commando and Demoman. I levelled them both legit and have a good idea how they work. However both of them are my 2 least favourite perks. I simply cannot use them effectively, they just totally mis match my play style.

Firebugs are great for all the reasons you said and if Commando/Demo don't work for you, Firebug is a good sweeper alternative. I just find that they don't have enough ammo on the harder levels. Mostly, I'd just really like to see a weapon besides the Flamethrower. It really limits the customization of the class.


As for Zerking...I'm just now realizing that the Backstabbing was fixed and that you can do quite a bit more damage from Flanking. It helps a lot with the damage. I'll toy around with it and see how it goes.
 
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True, but on HoE enemies move very fast, and with a scrake or fleshpound appearing just around the corner it's very hard to get one out in time, especially considering the arming time.

Don't bother with Scrakes, they're hardly a threat anyway, a Zerk or Sharpie should be taking care of it.

Fleshpounds coming right around the corner is a problem for any perk, but Pipe Bombs are one of your best bets of survival if you get into that situation and you have enough time to make some space between you and the FP. I wouldn't say no to a faster arming time though.

Probably not going to happen any time soon unfortunately.

Yeah I saw this, it's a shame, I even spoke to you about it lol.

True, although you could just leave a full M79 laying around if you're worried about running out of grenades. :p

Kinda cheap tactic in my book. But yeah I suppose you could.
 
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Don't bother with Scrakes, they're hardly a threat anyway, a Zerk or Sharpie should be taking care of it.

Fleshpounds coming right around the corner is a problem for any perk, but Pipe Bombs are one of your best bets of survival if you get into that situation and you have enough time to make some space between you and the FP. I wouldn't say no to a faster arming time though.



Yeah I saw this, it's a shame, I even spoke to you about it lol.



Kinda cheap tactic in my book. But yeah I suppose you could.



So, you SEE an fp so you lay down a pipe or you HEAR one spawned and you lay down one where you suppose him to come from? Both case a siren or charging gorefasts can set it off before the pound step on it.

Or you mean "you get lucky" to be able to lay down pipe for pounds everytime? Cos gorfasts is one of the ever-lasting zeds. If you run in front of the team, those gorefasts will charge at you.

Also on HoE, ONLY holding a melee weapon AND with high enough health can help you out run a fleshpound if you are not medic or berserker. If you see the pound and react by taking out your pipes and lay down, he already get to you. And he will walk pass the pipe before its armed. Again, we should not consider maps like farm. And if you lay down a pipe as soon as you hear one spawn, its just like laying one before the wave starts. It's still worthless.

ONLY good use of pipe I can think of is laying one BEHIND the team and retreat behind the pipe when the fleshpound is IN FRONT OF the group of zeds. But I still prefer 5-6 M32 shots. Easy and fast. Oh and much cheaper too.

Things like remote detonate or decrease arming time IS BUFFS. If you really think pipe is fine, you should not agree with ANY of those.
 
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So, you SEE an fp so you lay down a pipe or you HEAR one spawned and you lay down one where you suppose him to come from? Both case a siren or charging gorefasts can set it off before the pound step on it.

You lay a Pipe when you KNOW that the Fleshpound will take a lot, if not full damage from it.
Has worked 9/10 for me.

Or you mean "you get lucky" to be able to lay down pipe for pounds everytime? Cos gorfasts is one of the ever-lasting zeds. If you run in front of the team, those gorefasts will charge at you.

Right....Not sure what you meant there but, be more...careful then?

Also on HoE, ONLY holding a melee weapon AND with high enough health can help you out run a fleshpound if you are not medic or berserker.

Then take your knife out and start running, if you have low health, that's your problem. A medic should have healed you. If that same situation presented itself while you were carrying the M32, you could hardly do anything more about it than you could have done with Pipe Bombs.

If you see the pound and react by taking out your pipes and lay down, he already get to you. And he will walk pass the pipe before its armed. Again, we should not consider maps like farm. And if you lay down a pipe as soon as you hear one spawn, its just like laying one before the wave starts. It's still worthless.

You're doing it wrong.

ONLY good use of pipe I can think of is laying one BEHIND the team and retreat behind the pipe when the fleshpound is IN FRONT OF the group of zeds. But I still prefer 5-6 M32 shots. Easy and fast. Oh and much cheaper too.

False, that is not the only good use.

Things like remote detonate or decrease arming time IS BUFFS. If you really think pipe is fine, you should not agree with ANY of those.

Once again, false. I do think the Pipe Bombs are fine, but I wouldn't mind a faster arming time if that makes everyone happy. It's a tiny buff and wouldn't harm the game at all.
 
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