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Whats up with M14

The Medic does have an offensive weapon. It's called the MP7, which is perfectly fine for scoring headshots on the crappy specimens. The common usage of the Katana and Xbow by Medics says more about the weapons (too effective in non-corresponding perk hands) than it does about the supposed lack of firepower for the Medic.

Yes porting in the L85 for Commando would fulfill the need for a tier 1 weapon but why? Why is it necessary in any way? If Tripwire wanted the Medic to have more weapons then they could just implement one, not this weird switching process. If the EBR were balanced appropriately - which it will be - then there is absolutely no need to switch it over to Commando.
 
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The common usage of the Katana and Xbow by Medics says more about the weapons (too effective in non-corresponding perk hands) than it does about the supposed lack of firepower for the Medic.

well, not really.......the specific weapon they choose to buy is not really the point being made here. the simple fact that they are buying other weapons at all shows that medics could use another or at least that they want another offensive weapon. actually, your approach that they buy the most "powerful" weapons in the game further illustrates my point that medics are trying to make themselves a more viable "threat" then they currently are. one can argue that it's not their role to kill, but if that's the approach you'd want to be so critical about, then the medic shouldn't be able to carry/buy any offensive weapons at all. so yeah, give the medics only a syringe and so armour and see how many people will actually use that class......NOBODY would use it if that were the case. to provide decent enough gameplay, the medic has to have decent access to some offensive weapondary even if it's "weak" just to keep the player satisfied enough to use the perk. that's why they have a knife, 9mm and grenades like every other perk as well as the mp7 which TW decided to add to give the perk a decent weapon. note, they included the healing darts to preserve the "medic" capabilities of the weapon. doing the same thing with the bullpup would help the medic become a more adequate "killer" without breaking his role as a "healer".

Yes porting in the L85 for Commando would fulfill the need for a tier 1 weapon but why? Why is it necessary in any way?

because you argued that the commando would need a weapon to fill the void left by the bullpup going to the medic????

If Tripwire wanted the Medic to have more weapons then they could just implement one, not this weird switching process.

again you're taking the wrong approach to the issue......the top priority of this idea isn't focused on the medic, or the commando for that matter.....the main purpose creating a way to keep the EBR in the game without butchering it death to render it a useless piece of crap (thoughts of the chainsaw come to mind....RIP :(). the EBR is a GREAT weapon, well a great "mop up" weapon that is. so the most practical solution would be to just move it to the more appropriate perk. the commando perk is only tied into this "weapon redistribution" because it is the more appropriate perk for the weapon.

the commando could just stay with the following loadout:

Tier 1 - bullpup
Tier 2 - AK
Tier 3 - EBR or SCAR

however acknowledging the arguement that the medic could use another weapon, creating a brand new weapon for the medic would be a complete waste of time/resources if another weapon were available to be given to the perk.......moving the EBR to the commando woud end up giving the perk an excessive of weapons. since the medic could use a second perk exclusive weapon, moving the bullpup would be logical as the commando wouldn't really need it and the medic could use it as its characteristics are much more similar to the mp7 than the other commando weapons.

now if the bullpup went to the medic leaving the commando with the AK, EBR and SCAR, the weapons could be tweeked to make the AK a more appropriate tier1, and either the SCAR or EBR as an appropriate tier2 since they'd both currently be closer to being tier3 weapons...."nerf" one to make it a tier2 and keep one as is to be the tier3..... or the alternative would be adding a new weapon to replace the bullpup as the tier1 for the commando.

so the SA80/L85 as a possible choice to replace the bullpup. if the commando loses the bullpup and really needs a new lower tier weapon, lets bring back the L85 since it's pretty much already made but would just need a little work with a port. it'd be much more efficient to add a new weapon that's for the most part already created as opposed to creating something new from scratch like say, a new weapon for the medic like a mp5 or the p90.

remember the only "necissary" part to the redistribution would be moving the EBR......all the rest would just be extra. but even going with the rest of the proposed "redistribution" including moving the EBR and bullpup, and adding the L85, the changes would look as follows:

Commando:
Tier1 - SA80/L85
Tier2 - AK47
Tier3 - SCAR or EBR

Medic:
Tier1 - mp7
Tier2 - bullpup

SS: (assuming the gunslinger isn't added)
Tier1 - handcannon
Tier2 - LAR
Tier3 - Crossbow

after all of that there is ONE "new" weapon added to the game, which is a "port and polished" L85/SA80. additionally, not one weapon thats currently in the game would need any major tweeking, at least not to the extent that would be required to make the EBR as anything close to being a proper sharpshooters weapon. all in all, 3 perks receive attention and a couple major balance issues are fixed.

If the EBR were balanced appropriately - which it will be - then there is absolutely no need to switch it over to Commando.

well, for the most part it's already pretty balanced......just as a "mop up" weapon, not as a SS weapon. the fact is that the current weapon model could never be balanced appropriately to become a true "sharpshooting" weapon unless (as stated earlier) its mag size was reduced to 5-10 rounds, the ability to hipfire is removed, and the rate of fire is significantly decreased, which would all lead to a weapon that looks/feels/acts nothing like the real weapon. like i just pointed out in the above paragraph, instead of wasting the effort on just one weapon/balance issue, by simply redistributing a couple weapons, TW is literally killing 2-4 birds with just one stone. it's efficeint and effective and looking at the big picture, it it's much more benificial to the game as a whole.
 
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The M14EBR is a big hunk of plastic that emitts a red dot and a bullet hole with a diamater smaller than a 9mm's.

Well obviously.

M14: 7.62mm
B92: 9mm

The 9mm fires 9x19mm Luger (Parabellum) and the M14 fires 7.62x51mm NATO.

Logic dictates a wider bullet would leave a larger entrance wound.

Not trying to be rude, just stating some facts. :3
 
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No, man. Just no. I don't have the time nor the desire to write out a novel of a post; all I can say is that I sincerely hope your idea isn't implemented.

so i present an idea and give an arguement backed by logic, reasoning and statistics to support that idea to which you reply in an insulting tone that essentially "it's a bad idea"......and yet you fail to provide any legitimate arguement of your own to counter my idea or the arguement that supports it? time's really got nothing to do with it, i mean it only took me 3 minutes to type out that last post, which was probably as long as it took you to comment about how my idea "sucked" and that i was "high".

i don't mean this in an offensive way, but you might as well just save the time posting critiques of ideas if you can't back up your opinions with even the most basic of an arguement to refute it. ;)
 
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so i present an idea and give an arguement backed by logic, reasoning and statistics to support that idea to which you reply in an insulting tone that essentially "it's a bad idea"......and yet you fail to provide any legitimate arguement of your own to counter my idea or the arguement that supports it? time's really got nothing to do with it, i mean it only took me 3 minutes to type out that last post, which was probably as long as it took you to comment about how my idea "sucked" and that i was "high".

i don't mean this in an offensive way, but you might as well just save the time posting critiques of ideas if you can't back up your opinions with even the most basic of an arguement to refute it. ;)

Pretty sure I did post why I don't want the idea implemented, you just chose to ignore it and miss the point.

1. The Medic already has an offensive weapon which suits its purpose fine
2. The EBR would be fine for the Sharpshooter class if it were balanced appropriately
3. Commando's (and Medic's) weaponry is fine as it is, there's no need to go dicking around, adding and switching things out
4. You're assuming that the EBR would be rendered a "useless piece of crap" if it were tweaked to be a Sharpshooter weapon
5. The entire change is completely unnecessary and frankly I have no idea how anyone can think this is a good idea or how you keep missing what I'm trying to say.

Also your little winky faces are very condescending. Might want to work on that.
 
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I'm sure someone has already said it, buuuut.
Just reduce the MAgazine size in half, You get 10 shots, 14 or so magazines.
That'll help reduce spamming, Easy to do nerf. You maintain the original use of the M14, along with it being balanced out a bit.

Offtopic: To me Commando is like a hybrid of the 2 classes, Firebug And Sharpshooter. It's able to quickly mow through crowds, with a quick reload. While also being able to pack a big enough punch to injure or kill the Tougher specimens. like scrakes and to a lesser extent, Fleshpounders. while it's not as effective against hordes that a flamethrower is, And not as strong as the sharpshooter. It gives a very nice middle ground with some nice bonuses.
 
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But you do know how much work that takes to implent right?
What now? Should we blame the devs for their choice of weapon? Or instead blame them for using the Unreal engine?

The gun needs a fix. If the devs are too lazy to fix it, then so be it.
Lets see what info we can gather about the gun, then try to think a logical solution about it.

EBR has:

-Large magasine (20)
-Fast shooting speed (semi-auto)
-A laser which essentially replace a crosshair without any drawbacks*
-A lot of ammo (300)
-More damage(by shot/bodyshot) than the scar**
-An ironsight that many consider terrible
-Fast reload

Now, whats the real issue with it?
The answer? Spam. Its the real issue with it right now. The combination of all elements above made it easy to spam and be effective at it with the gun.

Now with possible solutions.
-Lowering maximum ammo
Wouldn't stop spam at all. Would simply make it end faster.
-Lowering magasine capacity
Would not completely stop spam. Reload is fast enough to counter this change. Similar to previous suggestion.
-Change Ironsight to a scope
Valid suggestion to make the gun more useful over distances, but does not prevent spam. Good idea to implement if gun get fixed at some point in time.
-Remove laser
Valid suggestion as it would make spamming harder, but would not remove it completely. Would require either good knowledge of where's the center of the screen or using the ironsight.
-Lower damage
Possibly best suggestion. Lower bodyshot damage heavily would force players to aim for the head for a kill, or simply waste ammo on zeds.
-Remove it completely
Bad suggestion, unless replaced by something else.

Anything I missed?

*Ironsights in this game reduce the walking speed of the player
**Able to one hit kill crawlers/stalkers on insane, and any low zombies on hard. Scar does not one hit kill clots on hard nor insane, and with the exception of crawlers, can't one hit kill anything else.


Globally speaking, the EBR is essentially a scar with a slightly lower magasine,no auto, a laser for crosshair and more damage to head and body.
Now gentlemen, think away.
 
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1. The Medic already has an offensive weapon which suits its purpose fine

that has nothing to do with the main arguement for taking the EBR from the SS and giving it to the commando......it only applies to a side-suggestion for moving the bullpup to the medic as the weapon would become even more overlooked/underappreciated due to the result of the commando receiving another battle rifle. even so, if you wanted to address that side-arguement, can you actually counter the conclusions i made in that earlier post when i explained why the medic could use another weapon and the bullpup would be a suitable choice? all you've said is that the current medic weapon serves its purpose, but can you explain why my conclusions weren't valid points?

2. The EBR would be fine for the Sharpshooter class if it were balanced appropriately

4 times you've made the broad statement "if the EBR were balanced appropriately" yet you've not once provided a solution as to how it could be "balanced appropriately".....regardless of your lack to provide any solutions, i took the liberty in providing some support to counter whatever solutions you could have provided based off of "popular" ideas already suggested by other users such as "mag reduction", "recoil increase" etc... my response in regards to those suggestions was that the weapon would still end up having the potential to be "spammable". therefore my conclusion was that the only way the weapon can be "appropriately balanced" would be to completely remove its semi-auto capability, ability to fire from the hip, and reduce the mag size to something less than 10 bullets so that the weapon could never be "spammable" and infringe on perks designed to fill the role of "mop up". all those would "appropriately" balance the weapon, but it'd be a ton of work to invest and it'd also end up destroying the nature of the weapon, which by design is serving as a semi-automatic battle rifle.

3. Commando's (and Medic's) weaponry is fine as it is, there's no need to go dicking around, adding and switching things out

possibly so, but the SS's weapondary is not. there is an opportunity to help balance both a weapon and a perk by "dicking around" with simply redestributing weapon(s) (one at the minimum, two at the most), especially when that redistribution wouldn't result in negative changes for any of the perks involved. can you argue why taking the EBR away from the SS would be bad for the SS? can you argue why the commando getting a second battle rifle, which is amost identical in functionality to the battle rifle it already possesses, would be bad for the commando? can you argue why the medic getting a carbine, which is almost identical in functionality to the smg it already has, would be bad for the medic? thinking you're arguement would be something along the lines of, "they don't need it", to that i say then if they don't need it but if there's nothing negative about them receiving it (i.e. it unbalancing the perk), then what's the problem with having a little more variety?

4. You're assuming that the EBR would be rendered a "useless piece of crap" if it were tweaked to be a Sharpshooter weapon

i'm not assuming, i'm telling you that realistically speaking, in order to appropriately tweek it to become a SS weapon, TW would have to butcher it to the point that it would be nothing like the real weapon or resemble what it was before them tweeking it. for that i say instead of risking it turning into a piece of junk, just keep it the way it is which is as a "spam" weapon good for the role of "mop up" and give it to a perk that's designed to fill that role: the commando

5. The entire change is completely unnecessary and frankly I have no idea how anyone can think this is a good idea or how you keep missing what I'm trying to say.

what exactly is it that you are trying to say other than you personally don't want "us" commandos to have the EBR? everything you have been saying follows the same pattern of what is quoted above....you claim that my proposed weapon redistribution is "unnecessary" but fail to explain why. when i provide a valid arguement to support my conclusions, you can't seem to be able to counter any of the points i've made with a reason as to why my conclusions are incorrect let alone present any alternative solutions to fix the issues that i'm providing ideas in attempts to fix those issues.

Also your little winky faces are very condescending. Might want to work on that.

they are only condescending if you take them that way ;) (like there, i could have used :p to express a emotion of trying to be a dick, but instead i used ;) which should indicate to the audience that was never my intention)

EBR has:
-Large magasine (20)
-Fast shooting speed (semi-auto)
-A laser which essentially replace a crosshair without any drawbacks*
-A lot of ammo (300)
-More damage(by shot/bodyshot) than the scar**
-An ironsight that many consider terrible
-Fast reload

yup, this is a very accurate analysis of the weapon

Now, whats the real issue with it?
The answer? Spam. Its the real issue with it right now. The combination of all elements above made it easy to spam and be effective at it with the gun.

ding ding ding we have a winner! that's exactly what i've been getting at through all of my long-winded posts :eek: :D

Now with possible solutions.
-Lowering maximum ammo
Wouldn't stop spam at all. Would simply make it end faster.
-Lowering magasine capacity
Would not completely stop spam. Reload is fast enough to counter this change. Similar to previous suggestion.
-Change Ironsight to a scope
Valid suggestion to make the gun more useful over distances, but does not prevent spam. Good idea to implement if gun get fixed at some point in time.
-Remove laser
Valid suggestion as it would make spamming harder, but would not remove it completely. Would require either good knowledge of where's the center of the screen or using the ironsight.
-Lower damage
Possibly best suggestion. Lower bodyshot damage heavily would force players to aim for the head for a kill, or simply waste ammo on zeds.
-Remove it completely
Bad suggestion, unless replaced by something else.

exactly! none of those solutions would completely prevent spam, which is the ultimate flaw of the weapon in regards to it being an appropriate SS weapon. and like the last suggestion, removing it wouldn't be logical at all.

**Able to one hit kill crawlers/stalkers on insane, and any low zombies on hard. Scar does not one hit kill clots on hard nor insane, and with the exception of crawlers, can't one hit kill anything else.

correct, although a SCAR can get a one hit decap on clots/gorefasts/stalkers/bloats which render those zeds ineffective, meaning it is very close to being just about as good as a one hit kill.

Globally speaking, the EBR is essentially a scar with a slightly lower magasine, no auto, a laser for crosshair and more damage to head and body.
Now gentlemen, think away.

presto! all in all when you combine each weapon's benefits to drawbacks and compare them to each other, they are pretty much equally as good at spamming. so my entire point of my postings in this thread and others is that instead of wasting time tweeking the EBR to hell and back and STILL not being able to make it into a proper SS weapon, just leave it as a great weapon for "spamming" and give it to a perk designed for "spamming".....the COMMANDO!
 
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So I just tried the EBR last night after a dude died with it and I had to pick it up to finish off a fleshpound.

I think part of the gun's spamminess is due to a major weakness it has: The huge, awkward sights mean it takes FOREVER to get a decent medium-to-long-range headshot with them, and the recoil means that if the first shot doesn't work you don't adjust, you start all over again. Combine this with the increased chance of getting sidelined or just plain crawler'd (since you can't see most of the bottom half of your screen!) and there's a HUGE perverse incentive to spam from the hip and/or rely exclusively on the dot.

In contrast, if you do all the things people complain about on the forums, you don't slow down, you don't lose a huge chunk of your FOV, and if you miss your target is still visible so it's a lot easier to adjust. And given the holy crap how do you even carry that ammo you get with it, the incentive to be careful with your shots approaches zero.

So some thoughts as to how to balance this thing, with apologies for not citing people who've previously brought them up:

  • Seven mag limit including the one in the gun. (which is still 140 shots - plenty enough to one-shot every zed at lower difficulties)
  • Take up at least 7 blocks.
  • More contrast between head and body shots.
  • Limit the dot to ranges where bringing up the sights probably isn't that great an idea anyway. (like up to 10m?)
  • Replace it with a classic M14, wood body and all, taking up even more blocks but reducing recoil due to the increased weight.
  • ???Make it cheaper and do less damage overall, so it's more like a "normal" weapon rather than a "congratulations on your hard work here take a free level in badass".??? (Though I suppose this was the original motivation for adding this gun to begin with!)
 
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Seven mag limit including the one in the gun. (which is still 140 shots - plenty enough to one-shot every zed at lower difficulties)

still too many shots to effectively spam everything with body shots

Take up at least 7 blocks.

the blocks aren't even an issue.....even the worse spammers don't use up all their ammo and never need to use a secondary weapon like the LAR or handcannons. you could make the blocks 12 and SS could still spam away just carrying the EBR

More contrast between head and body shots.

that'd help, but still not stop people from spamming the gun

Limit the dot to ranges where bringing up the sights probably isn't that great an idea anyway. (like up to 10m?)

sure, and additionally limited battery life.......although that still doesn't address the issue of the weapon being spammable.

Replace it with a classic M14, wood body and all, taking up even more blocks but reducing recoil due to the increased weight.

again, blocks really isn't an important issue.......and btw, the classic M14 had full-auto capabilities, so it'd make the weapon even more spammable

Make it cheaper and do less damage overall, so it's more like a "normal" weapon rather than a "congratulations on your hard work here take a free level in badass".??? (Though I suppose this was the original motivation for adding this gun to begin with!)

even if the DPS was as low as the 9mm, people will STILL spam the weapon and not change their play style.


like every other time these suggestions have been given, none of them will ever be able to reduce the weapon's spammability. please re-read this post
 
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My only problem is not just with M14, the whole spray shooting. It makes it impossible for these players to be good enough for suicidal.

I've been in so many suicidal where we lose because the squad runs out of ammo with more than half the zeds still coming.

Very frustrating. Players who play with Handcannon, Xbow, Rifle seem to be more of 1 shot, 1 kill and have plenty of ammo.

M14 users see a scrake, blow through an entire clip...Lame
 
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even if the DPS was as low as the 9mm, people will STILL spam the weapon and not change their play style.
Spam is not the real problem, its that spamming is effective. Reducing the damage to ridiculous levels WOULD stop spam, because it would become ineffective. You couldn't spam and get kills, damage would be too low.
 
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The point isn't to change everyone's behaviour, it's to keep the weapon from being a virtual game-breaker.

Admittedly I am giving the status quo the benefit of the doubt, since I personally hate using the EBR (high recoil, ROF just slow enough to be annoying and just fast enough that I can't appreciate every shot, looks like some fugly diseased robot horse penis (with all respect to the guys who modeled it - it's a design thing)) and I don't have any personal experience of it being stupidly easy to use. But you're talking like you want to make it impossible rather than unwise for a SS to spray their weapon all over the place. If you want that, you might as well get rid of the pistols too. Or possibly even the LAR.

One of the really great things about this game is how it's possible to do anything regardless of your perk (hence why I think it's called "perk" not "class"), but only certain not-totally-counterintuitive combos are particularly effective for particular tasks without any one combo being always categorically better. I think for the rest of us the question has always been, "Does the EBR make the game favour only SS+EBR over anything else?" rather than "Is the EBR a 'SS weapon' in the sense of what I think 'sharpshooter' 'types' of people ought to be and do?" which seems to be the angle I see your big post coming from. And as someone who likes games, who likes game design, and above all hates arbitrarily labelling and pigeonholing people based on what I unilaterally declare to be "right", I can't agree with that.
 
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the EBR (...) looks like some fugly diseased robot horse penis
This made me laugh out loud, for real. +rep for making me laugh. xD

The point isn't' to change everyone's behaviour, it's to keep the weapon from being a virtual game-breaker.

Admittedly I am giving the status quo the benefit of the doubt, since I personally hate using the EBR (high recoil, ROF just slow enough to be annoying and just fast enough that I can't appreciate every shot, looks like some fugly diseased robot horse penis (with all respect to the guys who modeled it - it's a design thing)) and I don't have any personal experience of it being stupidly easy to use. But you're talking like you want to make it impossible rather than unwise for a SS to spray their weapon all over the place. If you want that, you might as well get rid of the pistols too. Or possibly even the LAR.

One of the really great things about this game is how it's possible to do anything regardless of your perk (hence why I think it's called "perk" not "class"), but only certain not-totally-counterintuitive combos are particularly effective for particular tasks without any one combo being always categorically better. I think for the rest of us the question has always been, "Does the EBR make the game favour only SS+EBR over anything else?" rather than "Is the EBR a 'SS weapon' in the sense of what I think 'sharpshooter' 'types' of people ought to be and do?" which seems to be the angle I see your big post coming from. And as someone who likes games, who likes game design, and above all hates arbitrarily labelling and pigeonholing people based on what I unilaterally declare to be "right", I can't agree with that.

The pistols and LAR were in the mod. They're weapons of historical significance.

I kinda see what you're getting at. But i too would rather make it impossible to some extent for sharpshooter to spam their weapons. Admittedly the LAR does possess a high rate of fire, if you're willing to lose almost all accuracy beyond point-blank range.
And originally the pistols were unperked in the first few months of retail release.

And i have been harping on and on about the same solutions that everyone ignores:

*Increase recoil
*Reduce overall magazine number to 7
*Remove laser sight
*Decrease insane bodyshot damage.

If these were implemented then it would help kerb the spamming, due to reduced magazines meaning each of the 20 shots in the standard magazine have to count. Maybe fixing the iron sights so that more people like them would encourage their use, and increasing recoil/reducing recoil reduction bonus as Sharpshooter would make spamming less likely to happen.
 
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sure you're right about those proposed solutions helping to make spam more ineffective......but imo, that's not keeping the spirit of the game preserved. the perk system is centered around perks and weapons that are designed to accomplish specific roles. playing as a specific perk, each weapon designed for that perk is supposed to teach you how to fill that perk's role. sure in this case making spam less effective would help nerf the EBR, but that wouldn't guarantee players will actually learn how to fill the role of SS.....they would just realize that spamming is more effective with a different perk/weapon and switch to it. sure, that'd limit the amount of people wanting to properly fill the SS role, but the object of the system is to teach people how to play all roles as opposed to finding just one playstyle and finding out which perk/weapon is most effective for that style.

in this specific case, the gun (EBR) is only a game breaker because by design it's not intended to be a "spam" weapon, yet that's how it's being used, and with great effectiveness, by a perk that is supposed to be filling a different role. if the weapon was in the hands of a perk that's designed for spamming, then the weapon wouldn't be game breaking at all. that said the simplest "fix" would be doing that as opposed to trying to make a weapon into something it's not.

i'm on the other side about the game allowing you to do anything regardless of your perk. i absolutely think it goes against everything the perk system is designed for. the whole purpose of the perks is that each has a different role and weapons designed for them and the combination of the perks in game promotes teamplay as each player fills a role to contribute towards a team victory. that IS game design as oppsed to just giving players access to whatever weapon they want, letting them use it however they want, and pretty much do whatever they want regardless of how it effects the rest of the players. that's why there are perk attributes, weapon bonuses, weapon discounts etc.... to promote certain actions in order to fill a role.

"Does the EBR make the game favour only SS+EBR over anything else?" rather than "Is the EBR a 'SS weapon' in the sense of what I think 'sharpshooter' 'types' of people ought to be and do?"

yes, the only reason why the game "favors" SS+EBR is because that combination allows players to use one perk to fill 2 very different roles which two different perks are designed to fill. that is the result of the EBR not being a SS weapon in the sense that its effectiveness as a spam weapon is not what the SS as a perk is supposed to be effective at. therefore the weapon should be moved to a perk that promotes the type of playstyle that the weapon is effective at.

if TW wanted to do as you say, not pigeonhold players, then they wouldn't have made a perk system. something tells me you play a lot of L4D, since that game's lack of a perk or "class" system should be perfect for your desire to use whatever weapon you want however you want to do whatever you want. as for KF, that's just not the case. KF has a well defined "class" system whether you like it or not.

the best way to stop SS from spamming weapons is to not give them weapons with any real ability to spam. making a weapon less spammable won't completely stop SS from spamming and even worse, they will still learn bad habits of how NOT to play as that perk. the EBR isn't a problem, spamming isn't a problem, but EBR spamming as a SS is a problem. EBR spamming as a commando (which is designed to spam) wouldn't be a problem. therefore, weapon redistribution is still the most practical solution to fixing the "EBR problem"
 
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bawwwwwwwwwww people aren't playing the game exactly the way I want them to
EDIT:

I see your point, buried as it may be under the ridiculous logorrhoea that's characterized your posts in this thread, where every point you've made could have been made with a fraction of the words and none of the baldly false and self-defeating assertions (e.g., your points re: guns for medic).

1. Forcing everyone to do everything in one specific way = totally BS wipes when the plan falls apart. Which it will, because KF is better at simulating combat than simulating some kind of Aspie wet dream of some perfectly consistent system.

2. The katana also makes the demo and medic much more flexible and no one - well, no reasonable person, I'm not sure about you - harps on that being broken. The problem with the EBR isn't that it makes the SS more flexible, it's that it's god mode in the early game in a way that leads to suicide in the late game, thus making gameplay less enjoyable for everyone.

3. Your proposed redistribution might potentially eliminate the "suicide in the late game" problem, but that just makes the commando overpowered and all the noobs take that instead. If that's your standard of "problem solved", that's a pretty low bar.
 
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EDIT:

I see your point, buried as it may be under the ridiculous logorrhoea that's characterized your posts in this thread, where every point you've made could have been made with a fraction of the words and none of the baldly false and self-defeating assertions (e.g., your points re: guns for medic).

i'm long winded so either accept it or ignore it.......why are you insulting me about the way in which i post?

1. Forcing everyone to do everything in one specific way = totally BS wipes when the plan falls apart. Which it will, because KF is better at simulating combat than simulating some kind of Aspie wet dream of some perfectly consistent system.

ah, but nobody is being completely forced to do anything, in fact, the game offers a substancial amount of freedom. you have the freedom to choose the perk you want to use based on what your playstyle is. you have the freedom to buy whatever weapons you want so long as you have the money and available wieght blocks. you can pretty much do whatever you want, regardless of how ineffective or idiotic it might be. however, just like living in a democractic republic, the system still dictates the limits to your freedom through specific guidelines, rewards and consequences. just because some humans by their nature choose to be arrogant and act as though they don't have to abide by the system in place, doesn't mean that having a fuctional, and for the most part, consistant, system is impossible to achieve.

2. The katana also makes the demo and medic much more flexible and no one - well, no reasonable person, I'm not sure about you - harps on that being broken.

actually i and others have mentioned this concept as being an issue....medics kiting with crossbows, demos runing around trying to stun scrakes etc.... my conclusion was the exact same in that allowing players to use weapons not designed for their perk's role fails to teach players how to effectively use each perk and discourages teamplay which is the all emcompassing and most basic principle of the game. i'm assuming you don't think those situations are an issue, but that's kinda expected given your misconstrued ideas as to the purpose and design of the perks system

The problem with the EBR isn't that it makes the SS more flexible, it's that it's god mode in the early game in a way that leads to suicide in the late game, thus making gameplay less enjoyable for everyone.

no, the problem with the EBR is that it allows the SS to be effective at something it should not be effective it, thus discouraging teamplay and unbalancing gameplay. that's not exactly true what you mentioned about "godmode to suicide".....i've been in games when 4 EBR spamming SS make it through all 10 waves without any problem, while it rarely happens, it's not impossible. it's not a matter of the game being "easier" or "harder" that makes gameplay less enjoyable for people, it's more the perception of each player feeling as though they aren't contributing towads the team's success. because one gun allows one perk to be effective at both his role and the role of three other perks, players using those other perks do not feel as though they are valued.

3. Your proposed redistribution might potentially eliminate the "suicide in the late game" problem, but that just makes the commando overpowered and all the noobs take that instead. If that's your standard of "problem solved", that's a pretty low bar.

"suicide in the late game" problem? when this "problem" occurs, it's typically do to a team lacking an effective combination of perks to fill each role necissary to survive. in some cases, there's no medics healing because they are kiting with the katana. in other cases there's not enough commandos/supports/firebugs/demos to fill the role of mop up because there's 4 SS using crossbows looking for FP decaps. in other cases it could be 3 SS spamming EBRs but no "real" SS using a bow to take out priority targets. my proposed redistribution would all but eliminate two of the above situations as well as help players learn how to properly use the SS perk or at least have them spam the EBR using a perk designed to spam.

also, you falsely assume that moving the EBR to the commando would make him overpowered.....however if you actually look at the specific weapon stats, the EBR and SCAR are essentially equal when you remove the SS bonuses that currently apply to the EBR and replace them with the bonuses for the commando. seeing as no commando would ever be able to carry both the SCAR and the EBR, then nothing changes from the currently "balanced" nature of the commando.

if you actually apply my suggestion to what i've accurately discribed as being the problems, then yes, it does fix them. the only "problem" is that you fail to acknowledge the validity of most of my conclusions and refuse to accept that my stance regarding the "design" of the Perks system reflects the same opinions of the game's developers.
 
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