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SS/COM balance Think Tank.

masteriamamind

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Oct 12, 2010
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I know a large group of you dedicated kf players have ideas. Let's challenge ourselves and come up with a solution we can all agree on by Sunday November 14. Maybe just maybe we can get the idea tested. Here are some guidelines to help with feasibility.

1. If balances require ADDED content, its out.
2. Easy to implement via adjustable game mechanics(reload speed etc.)
3. More than just "take x away from y" You can take, but you have to add as well.


I shot around some ideas in the Official Beta thread. I admit they could have been better. Those were just off the top of my head without deep thought. Let's try to stay positive with this. Another back and forth lawyer thread won't be productive. If you shoot down someone's idea , try to list at least 1 usable idea yourself. Highlighting positive aspect's of someone's idea you don't agree with may help push a game tweak we can add and agree on.


I personally feel the Commando is fine. But any suggestion to differentiate the two classes are welcome! Let's put aside our differences and prejudice against one another. Let's strive to make one solid idea that the community can back without bickering and we might have a shot at getting it tested. All are welcome to participate. Be positive and keep the ball (available in steam now:D) moving forward!
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Things to possibly implement gathered from thread feedback=

*handguns need to be removed only if SS keeps universal head shot damage.

*Make m14 slower fire rate ,slightly faster than lar, with greater hs multiplier.

* adjust weigts so lar and bow can be carried.
 
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I am taking a great Idea that was in the beta thread and placing it here to get something started. All credits to OxGx.




QxGx
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Only the SS and Commando are similar in play style with the SS being better at that style +its own. There has to be a viable solution without nerfing SS further.

First:
Give the Scar to the SS -> single fire in zoom mode only :D
use autofire too much and your weapon is empty :eek: /// thats the idea

Second:

Increase Scar weight to 9 will result in (as an example):
Scar + double Handcannon + Machete + 9 mm = 15

The SS doesnt need to carry much weapons his 9 mm is stronger.
But pls change Handcannon to slot 3 nobody wants to waste Handcannon ammo if a 9 mm will do the same.

The Comando gets the EBR to kill the small - medium ones
Try to kill big ones alone & your weapon is empty :confused: --> Commando has no SS Headshoot bonus ;)

Special
Commando has to be able to kill with a headshoot without headless walking
if thats the case the Comando would be very usefull. ;)

The ability to see the health bar can be changed to see the heath bar of the Head (if there is still a Head!).
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Feedback people! Weigh it out. I will post my Ideas here as well just to get your opinions on them.
 
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Just doing a copy/paste on my post that made me start this thread. Comments welcome.

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masteriamamind
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ss>commando=cry?
I keep seeing this argument throughout the forums especially here. "the SS is a better at the commando's job than the commando!". So is support,demo, and my personal fav FB! Not only are the other perks better sweepers, they come with interesting play nuances. Hell the BuG alone is FAR superior at sweeping everything , no one is crying about that. Instead of finding more ways to nerf the Sharp Shooters(might as well take the class out with all these complainers) how about finding ways to make the commando more distinguished.

My suggestions:
1.most boring option= fully restore scar damage. So the Coms could have a decent dps and stop *****ing about the SS.

2. More Dakka! 100%(maybe mag size too) increase on ammo capacity for assault weapons baby! That means while everyone is penny pinching and worry about ammo, your still shooting! you can even do the rambo scream! Who cares about how weak your weapons are when you never stop shooting!:D

3. REAL Commando. Highly trained military personnel is proficient with many weapons. 1st reduce Comm damage bonus to 15%-20%. 2nd reduce discount to a MAX of 30% at level 6. 3rd and most importantly have bonuses apply to ALL weapons. Holy Sugar Honey Ice Tea! Now instead of a generic class we got ourselves a certifiable badass! Balance it out with spawning (at lvl6) with a bull-pup and armor.


I love that 3rd option! Imagine the play possibilities! Comm has always been a cheap class to play. With that suggestion, cash management and load out planning come back into play. You might think that the 3rd option would make it OP, but also remember your not getting class specific bonuses. Ex: zerker clot immunity and speed. Plus your overall damage output isn't the same as a true specialist. At the end of the day you would have the same balanced class you know and love.

Questions comments welcome.
 
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I'm a heavy commando player, and I always have been as it's my favorite class. Quite frankly, I don't think sharpshooters are better than me at my job when they use the M14. The only real difference is that they can kill crawlers in one hit while it takes me two on suicidal (beta) and that they can take on scrakes and fleshpounds while I can't and they can deal with husks slightly better than me.

But it's not the commando's job to deal with scrakes and fleshpounds. I've always viewed the commando's role to be taking out all the gorefasts, clots, crawlers, and stalkers that come with them. If the sharpshooter kills the FP while it's in his face but gets swarmed by 5 gorefasts, then so what?
Also, the M14 currently gets 20 shots per mag, and gets 7 extra mags, I believe, while the lvl 6 commando gets 25 with the SCAR per mag and gets (forgive me if I'm not spot on) 12(?) extra mags. That's a lot more shots that the commando can use.

Other than that, the commando has a lot of utility stuff to go along with it. Being able to see stalkers and kill them before they get in the way (admittedly most stalkers get killed by random bullets anyway), spot the patriarch while he's cloaked, view health of enemies to tell teammates whether to attack something or try to ignore it for a minute, extend zed time for more accurate headshots for the rest of the team, and have reload bonus with every weapon, meaning you could potentially reload shotguns and grenade launchers 35% faster than the classes they belong to. A commando with the M32 and a SCAR can wreak havoc on everything except scrakes and put out more shoots in a less amount of time than a demo as well.

Alright, sorry about that wall of text, I didn't mean for it to be that long, lol.
 
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first off, the SS and commando were never originally designed to be similar in playstyle. until new content was added to the game and critical gameplay/mechanical changes were made, the SS and commando were about as different as apples and oranges.

the first SS (before any content updates):
Weapons - LAR, Crossbow, Handcannon (duelies didn't count towards leveling)
Role - Scrakes (stun with LAR or decap with bow if you knew about the over-the-shoulder hitbox), sirens, bloats,

now, let's look at a timeline of key events which has resulted in the current SS perk:

May 21, 2009 Update
Improved the detection of Headshots on the Specimens
- the impact of this is obvious....better detection of headshots means more effective damage and leveling

July 2, 2009 Update
Assigned 9mm to Sharpshooter Perk (9mm headshots count toward Perk and all bonuses now apply to 9mm as well)
- impact of this is that the SS was given a 4th perked weapon, leveling was as simply as pie, and the 9mm's power set up the perk to become almost as effective at "mop-up" as the other perks that already filled that role.

October 22, 2009 "Level-up" Update
Added an all new fireball projectile launching specimen called the Husk
- Now added another long range priority target for the SS to focus on as part of his role
Sharpshooter: M14 EBR Semit Automatic Sniper rifle(With Alt-Fire Laser
Sight)
- Gave the SS a 5th weapon which was just as good for "mop-up" as the a Commando using a SCAR, in addition to handling FP/Scrakes with spammed headshots. this weapon combined with 9mm allowed the SS to infringe upon the "mop-up" role which was being filled by Commandos, Supports, Firebugs, and Demos.
Implemented new Headshot system that improves headshot detection in network games. Additionally this system fixes Insta-Kill Decap on Fleshpound when attacking up close, and fixes the headshot detection issues on the Scrake
- the headshot fixes, mainly the correct re-centering of the hitboxes on FP/Scrakes, allowed for 1-shot decaps on both as a high level SS using a crossbow. the 1-shot was always possible on Scrakes, but you had to know about the off-centered hitbox. the "Insta-Kill Decap on FP" was directed at the BUG which allowed any class using nearly any weapon, the ability to decap the FP as he went into his rage animation. before this change, this BUG was acknowledged, however the ability for the zerker using a chainsaw to do said action was deemed INTENTIONAL GAMEPLAY. because this "fix" also took away the ability for the zerker to get decaps, that resulted in the creation of one single "anti-FP" perk in the SS as he would be the only one capable of decapping FPs.


after all these changes, the SS has become the "jack of all trades" perk. he's clearly THE most efficient/effective anti-FP role. he's more effective as anti-Scrake than the zerker (who still has stunning ability). the perk is the easiest perk to level up. the EBR/9mm are so effective that the SS can do everything and fill every offensive role by himself, which renders the other perks designed for the "mop-up" role useless.

imo, there's only one way to fix this problem: removing the SS's ability to be good at both the role he is clearly designed for, and the role he has been morphed into excelling at. the SS should be good for one thing and one thing only - taking down priority targets like the FP/Scrake/Husk.

a few steps that would lead to fixing this problem:
  • removing the 9mm and handcannons as perked weapons (preferrably by adding the Gunslinger perk which would use the hanguns as perked weapons)
  • giving the EBR to the commando - i've already made enough posts and given enough valid support that proves this move would NOT unbalance the Commando perk.
  • reducing crossbow ammo cap (according to beta, already in place)
  • increasing crossbow ammo cost and no longer allowing the rediculously cheap "buy-back" trick (according to beta, already in place)
as for the commando? well, it's a pretty well-balanced perk. should the current EBR be given to him, with the Commando bonuses swapped for the SS bonuses, the weapon would be an equivilant alternate to the SCAR. the class remains balanced, while the SS would no longer be able to infringe upon the role the commando is designed to fill.

anyway, might expand upon this later but i've got to run :D
 
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a few steps that would lead to fixing this problem:
  • removing the 9mm and handcannons as perked weapons (preferrably by adding the Gunslinger perk which would use the hanguns as perked weapons)
  • giving the EBR to the commando - i've already made enough posts and given enough valid support that proves this move would NOT unbalance the Commando perk.
  • reducing crossbow ammo cap (according to beta, already in place)
  • increasing crossbow ammo cost and no longer allowing the rediculously cheap "buy-back" trick (according to beta, already in place)
as for the commando? well, it's a pretty well-balanced perk. should the current EBR be given to him, with the Commando bonuses swapped for the SS bonuses, the weapon would be an equivilant alternate to the SCAR. the class remains balanced, while the SS would no longer be able to infringe upon the role the commando is designed to fill.

anyway, might expand upon this later but i've got to run :D

Great info on original post. Ideas and logic make sense. 2 problems.
1.

-add a new perk would require more work than TWI is willing to put in.
I also think the gunslinger perk is already inside the SS.

+I like removing hand guns since the SS gets bonus HS damage with every weapon.


2.
- Too much take and not enough give. SS needs effective weaponry. A lar(effective) and a gimped bow(now trash) would be the only remaining SS weapons. Not to mention They could not be carried together.

+The two remaining SS weapons fire at a speed that is inline with the class.


Ok this is what if got out your excellent post.

*handguns need to be removed only if SS keeps Universal head shot damage.

*Make m14 slower fire rate ,slightly faster than lar, with greater hs multiplier.

This sounds like a fair compromise. Updating first post.
 
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I don't think there's time left in the beta to get the SS/Com balance right, but then that wasn't one of the goals in the first place. The SS goal of making it "fear something" were achieved as it can't solo large targets anymore on Suicidal.


Commando is still less useful then Commando-flavored Sharpshooter though. Stalkers are easy to spot, and HP bars are superfluous once you know how many headshots it takes to kill something.
 
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Turn the M14 into an M21. This would only require some modification of the M14's model. Remove the laser sight. This doesn't add any large amount of content so it is feasible to do in a much shorter amount of time than it would take to make an entirely new model.

Make it so Dual Handcannon actually has the weight of 2 Handcannons.

Make Sharpshooter's headshot bonus specific to Sharpshooter weapons.

Remove 9 mm from the perk.

Rebuff the Xbow to decap in 3 hits instead of 4.

Remove Xbow penetration.

Cut M14 and LAR damage in half. Double their headshot modifiers for Sharpshooter only.

Buff LAR headshot modifier to match the M14.

Much further into the future, consider adding the M40 to the game.
 
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Like i've been constantly saying for i don't know how long, turn the M14 into an M21 DMR.
Thanks to EonSieg for reminding me.

Make the Xbow kill in 2 shots, up from 4. L6 SS only.

Perhaps drastically reduce run speed while wielding the Xbow. That could be interesting.

I agree with the SS nerf, and then SS-only buff.

Remove pistols from SS, give to GS when it's made.

Make the Xbow unable to kill anything, just decap; if the previously suggested buff is not applied. This would make teamwork a must, if the person who shot the FP/Scrake was to live.
 
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I honestly don't know why people complain about the M14 so much, I think it is a great addition to the sharpshooter.

It adds some variety to the sharpshooter, who is otherwise is using iron-sights and staying in one place. The M14 allows the sharpshooter to deal heavy damage with some head shots while moving at a faster speed. The SCAR does the same for the commando. Rather then pumping things full of lead from the hip, the SCAR allows the commando to use their aim a bit more to get more headshots.

If anything, the commando needs a more powerful weapon that can be shot from the hip that is more on par with the scar imo.
 
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Here are my thoughts (if anyone cares :rolleyes:):

SCAR and M14:
Swap the Scope and Laser. This would go a long way of balancing them and making them more fit their perk roles.

The SCAR is a little too good as a snipery weapon (even though it in real life is a "assault sniper rifle" if that's a real term :p). Giving it the lasersight instead of the scope would make it less snipery, but also even better at its assault-role (even easier to run and shoot).

The M14 is too easy to spam and too bad at sniping, which is just... wrong! Having the laser removed makes it less spammy for sure, and adding a scope to it does two things:
1) It makes it more snipery and better at longer ranges, which the Sharpshooter weapons SHOULD be.
2) It makes it a bit harder to use at close range (in addition with the removal of the laser ofc) due to more often "requiring" you to use the scope ("requiring" in the sense of getting a better aim and easier headshots ofc), which makes your vision worse at close range which makes Stalkers, Clots, Gorefasts and Crawlers more of an annoyance which is a GOOD thing! That makes it (while scoped) less able to sweep at short ranges and also makes you more focused about taking out the big targets at range like the Husk. You can ofc still "spam" at short range, but it will be much harder to do due to the lack of the laser :)

Although, this could probably overpower the M14 in terms of sniping though, so i would increase its recoil (or reduce the Sharpshooter recoil reduction) to not make it too good at the sniping (and spamming!). Either that or reduce the reload speed, as it is very fast to reload all the Sharpie weapons.

Making the pistols unperked, or even better, make them COMMANDO WEAPONS, would also help Commando + nerf the Sharpshooter's sweeping power quite a bit. The pistols would still be useful for the Sharpie though, due to it's general headshot bonus.

However, this makes the Xbow a little lonely in loadout. That's why i ALSO suggest buffing it by making it only weigh 8 (down from 10), which makes you able to carry the LAR along with it! You might think this is overpowered, but it is not. The Xbow is so much weaker in the beta, that it might actually feel a bit unbalanced (in the weak way) to keep it at 10 weight.

EDIT: Further thing i would like to say about Commando is to change the weights a little. Make the SCAR weigh 7 and the Bullpup 5. That makes more sense and is also more balanced!
EDIT 2: Even further that could be done is having the AK47 or SCAR penetrate a target (like the HC)! If the AK47 gets it, the SCAR needs to do more damage (like, able to oneshot a suicidal crawler). If the SCAR gets it, it doesn't need a further damage buff.


PLUS, for the future, then a new weapon could be added too, to the Sharpie:
Lee Enfield (maybe with a bayonette on it for further "spicing"? :))
It would be between LAR and Xbow in terms of damage and rate of fire (due to being a bolt-action rifle). It could weigh 6 as well, so you could pair it with the Xbow or M14.


TL;DR-version:
*SCAR - Remove scope, add lasersight
*M14EBR - Remove lasersight, add scope
*Make 9mm(s) and HC(s) unperked or Commando weapons
*Reduce the weight of Xbow to 8 (from 10, enabling Xbow+LAR)
*Reduce recoil bonus from Sharpshooter a little (either that or reload speed)
*Reduce weight of Bullpup to 5 (from 6)
*Increase weight of SCAR to 7 (from 5)
*Add one penetration to SCAR or AK (if AK gets it, buff SCAR damage to enable oneshotting Suicidal Crawlers)
 
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Here are my thoughts (if anyone cares :rolleyes:):

SCAR and M14:
Swap the Scope and Laser. This would go a long way of balancing them and making them more fit their perk roles.

The SCAR is a little too good as a snipery weapon (even though it in real life is a "assault sniper rifle" if that's a real term :p). Giving it the lasersight instead of the scope would make it less snipery, but also even better at its assault-role (even easier to run and shoot).

The M14 is too easy to spam and too bad at sniping, which is just... wrong! Having the laser removed makes it less spammy for sure, and adding a scope to it does two things:
1) It makes it more snipery and better at longer ranges, which the Sharpshooter weapons SHOULD be.
2) It makes it a bit harder to use at close range (in addition with the removal of the laser ofc) due to more often "requiring" you to use the scope ("requiring" in the sense of getting a better aim and easier headshots ofc), which makes your vision worse at close range which makes Stalkers, Clots, Gorefasts and Crawlers more of an annoyance which is a GOOD thing! That makes it (while scoped) less able to sweep at short ranges and also makes you more focused about taking out the big targets at range like the Husk. You can ofc still "spam" at short range, but it will be much harder to do due to the lack of the laser :)

Swapping the scope and the lazer would make the M14 and SCAR seem to be a better fit in their perk, but that is not the point of these weapons. The point of these weapons is to add some variety to each perk.

The M14 defiantly shouldn't be turned into a long range sniping gun. The Sharshooter already has the Xbow, that is its niche. The M14 is supposed to be not as good at sniping as the Xbow. It is a weapon meant for sharpshooters to spam headshots while dealing some great damage but not have to give up mobility. The downside of the M14 should be that it doesn't have the heavy single hit damage and range of the xbow. While the sharpshooter has a powerful "sharpshootere-esque" weapon (the xbow), the commando doesn't have a powerful "commando-esque" weapon that is shot from the hip primarily. Which again is why the commando needs a weapon shot primarily from the hip that deals damage more on par with the SCAR.

The last point I'll make is this- if the M14 was made "more like a sharpshooter weapon" and the SCAR was made "more like a commando weapon" then people would complain how all of both perk's weapons are all the same.
 
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I honestly don't know why people complain about the M14 so much, I think it is a great addition to the sharpshooter.

It adds some variety to the sharpshooter, who is otherwise is using iron-sights and staying in one place. The M14 allows the sharpshooter to deal heavy damage with some head shots while moving at a faster speed. The SCAR does the same for the commando. Rather then pumping things full of lead from the hip, the SCAR allows the commando to use their aim a bit more to get more headshots.

If anything, the commando needs a more powerful weapon that can be shot from the hip that is more on par with the scar imo.

We complain because it's overpowered, and contradicts the perk's role.

It's not meant to move fast, it's meant for careful, aimed shots with scopes; though good players don't need them. The M14 is herp-a-derp run-n-gun tactics with an emphasis on Commando-style playing. Spam boolits lol. It's just too easy to spam with it and it doesn't encourage aiming.

That and before the 1014 patch it had a high ammo reserve with high damage and no penalty for spamming; causing a player to become what i call a Spamshootard.
 
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I don't think there's time left in the beta to get the SS/Com balance right

time is most definitely not the issue....the beta testing has wasted so much time on just attempting to fix a weapon that is not broken or resulting in the SS being "overpowered". fixing the real issues actually wouldn't take that much time, it's just some people are making things very difficult by trying extremely complex ideas :rolleyes:


this is how easy it would be:
  • move EBR to commando (no base weapon code changes needed)
  • remove handguns as perked SS weapons (keep universal headshot bonus for SS)
  • allow level5 and level6 SS carry LAR with Crossbow (alternative to carrying duelies)
  • don't touch the current (NOT the beta :cool:) power of the crossbow or the FP/Scrake headshot resistance/health
  • reduce ammo cap for bow to 20-25 bolts
  • fix bugged scope/reloading animation in the crossbow
  • fix crossbow "buy-back" issue so that ammo must be refilled and actually require some money management.
taaada......a balanced commando good at mop-up, and a balanced SS good at taking down priority targets, all with very little work done. hell, all this beta time that's been wasted on the crossbow could have been used to make the long supported gunslinger perk and solved even more problems. :eek:
 
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