Territory/Area based cap system.

[Zetsumei]

Introduction of the issue of the current capsystem:

The current cap system got a big issue with actually making hiding in a toilet an effective tactic. As all you need to win is having more people in the cap zone to win a map. Maps having loads of rooms often become unplayable if the attackers end up trying to get a game of hide and seek going. This issue was worse in the mod, but the remedy used in RO-Ost wasn't really to my liking. Namely by adding the enemy presence bar you know there are enemies in the cap zone making hiding less effective. For reasons known to all I think the enemy presence bar does more bad than good, and want to see it removed from the game. Removing the enemy presence bar will however make the issue of hiding in a cap zone back to the levels of the mod.

What I think can be used to solve the issue:

My idea to solve this issue is using a territorial/area based cap system, which means that rather than being in the cap zone with bigger numbers to cap, your team must hold the biggest amount of territory or area within the actual cap zone. How to achieve this? by making use of an influence system. Influence is a system used in the game of GO to predict what area of the playing board belongs to what player.

To see what influence is in the game of go you can use the following website:
http://www.peepo.com/

Place stones (you first place an axis stone then an allied stone etc) and see how the board at the top left gets divided into blue and red territory.

Basically the idea is simple. Cut a cap zone up in multiple sub cap zones, and the team of the player the closest to every individual sub cap zone becomes the owner of that cap zone. In the end the team that controls X% of the sub cap zones wins. *Some illustrations how it could be with ro are shown here.





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Why use influence (cap zone belongs to the player the closest to the cap) rather than just have multiple smaller cap zones in a cap utilizing the default cap system in RO?

If you have to walk over the sub cap zone to obtain it then you need to know exactly what sub cap zones you still need to cap. This means that if the sub cap zones get really small you would immediately know where the enemy is by seeing how he captures the zones . By making a system automatically decide what cap zone belongs to who, will result in players just knowing that they need to cover the biggest ground without having to show them exactly which bits they do not control yet.

How would it work with walls and floors, is the distance used to calculate what player is closer to a cap zone the absolute distance?

The distance used to calculate what player is the closest to a cap zone would logically need to take the same paths that a regular player would take, like for instance bot paths. Another way could be lookup tables, so if a player is in cap zone D you automatically know how distant he is from every cap zone in the map. There are probably other ways to do the same.

How big would the sub cap zones need to be?

The ideal size is probably about room size, so pretty much 2 people cannot go unnoticed of each other in the same cap zone. Without forcing everybody to stand directly behind a door to maximize their territory.

What would the cap bar display?

1) The cap bar could either show the general status of the capzone, like in percentage how much of the cap belongs to the axis and how much belongs to the allied forces. Where information would only be showed in increments of like 25%, so you do not immediately see when someone enters a capzone.
2)Or the one I prefer, once a team controls over X% then the capbar will move. So similarly to now when you must have more people than the opponent in the cap zone to start capping and then keep that advantage to keep capping. You will need to control >X% of the cap zone to start capping and keep that for the duration of the cap. The more territory you have the quicker the cap goes.

Not every room is of the same size and importance, how would that affect the system?

Technically making rooms weighted rather than all of equal value probably wouldn't be that much harder. So a bigger area could be made worth more points.

However most of the time a room with tactical importance doesn't necessarily need to be made to be worth more than a useless room. A room generally got a tactical advantage if it controls a key point like for instance a staircase or a door entrance. However by using influence the player the closest to a room will be the owner of it, meaning that defending a place that gives access to certain areas means that you're automatically the closest person to those areas. So holding key points gives you a benefit in holding the area without the need of anything artificial.

Only for locations where the advantage is for instance having a weapon cache, or a strong fortified shooting position would need to be worth extra in an area based system.

[Zetsumei]

I'm not spamming it, I'm reposting my posts. That were removed by evil people on the other RS forum that seized to exist.

[Proud_God]

Good idea! A simpler variant would be to measure the combined (straight line) distances to a central point in the cap: you start the cap if your team's combined distance is smaller than the other team's by a certain percentage.

[PinGo]

i really like this idea, because that is one of the things i find anoying when playing ro2hos when people cap you often end up looking after them in the cap zones which is so damn annoying. Great idea hoping its getting into the game .

[MrHello]

Originally Posted by Zetsumei

Introduction of the issue of the current capsystem:

The current cap system got a big issue with actually making hiding in a toilet an effective tactic. As all you need to win is having more people in the cap zone to win a map. Maps having loads of rooms often become unplayable if the attackers end up trying to get a game of hide and seek going. This issue was worse in the mod, but the remedy used in RO-Ost wasn't really to my liking. Namely by adding the enemy presence bar you know there are enemies in the cap zone making hiding less effective. For reasons known to all I think the enemy presence bar does more bad than good, and want to see it removed from the game. Removing the enemy presence bar will however make the issue of hiding in a cap zone back to the levels of the mod.

What I think can be used to solve the issue:

My idea to solve this issue is using a territorial/area based cap system, which means that rather than being in the cap zone with bigger numbers to cap, your team must hold the biggest amount of territory or area within the actual cap zone. How to achieve this? by making use of an influence system. Influence is a system used in the game of GO to predict what area of the playing board belongs to what player.

To see what influence is in the game of go you can use the following website:
http://lyon-shinogi.jeudego.org/simul_influence/

Place stones (you first place an axis stone then an allied stone etc) and see how the board at the top left gets divided into blue and red territory.

Basically the idea is simple. Cut a cap zone up in multiple sub cap zones, and the team of the player the closest to every individual sub cap zone becomes the owner of that cap zone. In the end the team that controls X% of the sub cap zones wins. *Some illustrations how it could be with ro are shown here.





-------

Why use influence (cap zone belongs to the player the closest to the cap) rather than just have multiple smaller cap zones in a cap utilizing the default cap system in RO?

If you have to walk over the sub cap zone to obtain it then you need to know exactly what sub cap zones you still need to cap. This means that if the sub cap zones get really small you would immediately know where the enemy is by seeing how he captures the zones . By making a system automatically decide what cap zone belongs to who, will result in players just knowing that they need to cover the biggest ground without having to show them exactly which bits they do not control yet.

How would it work with walls and floors, is the distance used to calculate what player is closer to a cap zone the absolute distance?

The distance used to calculate what player is the closest to a cap zone would logically need to take the same paths that a regular player would take, like for instance bot paths. Another way could be lookup tables, so if a player is in cap zone D you automatically know how distant he is from every cap zone in the map. There are probably other ways to do the same.

How big would the sub cap zones need to be?

The ideal size is probably about room size, so pretty much 2 people cannot go unnoticed of each other in the same cap zone. Without forcing everybody to stand directly behind a door to maximize their territory.

What would the cap bar display?

1) The cap bar could either show the general status of the capzone, like in percentage how much of the cap belongs to the axis and how much belongs to the allied forces. Where information would only be showed in increments of like 25%, so you do not immediately see when someone enters a capzone.
2)Or the one I prefer, once a team controls over X% then the capbar will move. So similarly to now when you must have more people than the opponent in the cap zone to start capping and then keep that advantage to keep capping. You will need to control >X% of the cap zone to start capping and keep that for the duration of the cap. The more territory you have the quicker the cap goes.

Not every room is of the same size and importance, how would that affect the system?

Technically making rooms weighted rather than all of equal value probably wouldn't be that much harder. So a bigger area could be made worth more points.

However most of the time a room with tactical importance doesn't necessarily need to be made to be worth more than a useless room. A room generally got a tactical advantage if it controls a key point like for instance a staircase or a door entrance. However by using influence the player the closest to a room will be the owner of it, meaning that defending a place that gives access to certain areas means that you're automatically the closest person to those areas. So holding key points gives you a benefit in holding the area without the need of anything artificial.

Only for locations where the advantage is for instance having a weapon cache, or a strong fortified shooting position would need to be worth extra in an area based system.

What is the likely-hood of something such as this being implemented?

[Zetsumei]

I hope it will at one point be implemented to a game or mod. But there has never been a high amount of interest in general by people. Remember as well that this thread was created before the release of HOS, and before I was a member of the RS team.

Not high interest + a lot of work = generally not too big of a chance. And that goes for any suggestion for any game. However never expect me to give any definite answers, for the simple reason that a lot of things can and always will change for any game.

Even suggestive answers could mean that people might get their hopes up for things, which is why for instance in the HOS section you pretty much never see any posts or comments by TWI, while I know that TWI actually does read pretty much all suggestions.

[MeFirst]

Well I am mostly fine with the current system. Of course it is not perfect but what is perfect anyway? Sure it can be annoying when people hide in a toilet but It also encourages the attackers to sweep and clean a cap instead of just hiding in a toilet next room. Also when people are used to a map they usually know hiding spots and block or clean them from enemys who want to hide there.

[Zetsumei]

Found a working link for an influence simulator again (look at the top left for how territories get divided):

http://www.peepo.com/

[Baron von thryke]

I completely agree with you Zetsumei, the current cap system has some massive flaws (i.e the indicator etc).

As much as i'd like to see something like this, it'd probably need a ****load of testing and refining to get right. Are you in any-way insinuating this is the type of system that'll be in Rising storm?

[Nestor Makhno]

He certainly is not.

[Baron von thryke]

Why not? Would it be possible to do in the first place?

[Zetsumei]

Everything is possible, yet everything costs time that can be used elsewhere. I just posted this thread originally in the Rising Storm section, perhaps a mod could move it to the ideas and seggestions forum for hos that would cause less of a confusion.

[Rabid Penguin]

This is basically the same as what I suggested a few days ago...

http://forums.tripwireinteractive.co...ad.php?t=81013

I didn't see yours 'cause it was in the Rising Storm section until today, and I hardly ever go there :P

[Zetsumei]

Originally Posted by Rabid Penguin

This is basically the same as what I suggested a few days ago...

http://forums.tripwireinteractive.co...ad.php?t=81013

I didn't see yours 'cause it was in the Rising Storm section until today, and I hardly ever go there :P

There are old versions in the ideas and suggestions forum as well Even by multiple posters.

[Six_Ten]

We could do something like this now, I think, just by using multiple volumes linked to each objective. You could for instance have a cap volume in just the hallway of a building, so when in the small rooms off to the side you aren't in the cap, and by using several volumes you could cover the larger rooms and halls to make them cappable.

Go is a great game.