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Support Specialist : Balance

He can carry tons of stuff so ammo is not going to be a problem unless he buys both HS and AA12.

Any above adverage player should not worry about ammo as any perk. That being said, support still being THE easiest perk to running out of ammo if real **** happens (such as 2 guy nade themselves when they see the first fp).


Its called "normal" movement speed, medic and zerker are the only perks who move quickly, others move the same speed as support. The only thing that may affect is the how much stuff you carry, but to quote Smiff: "a support with 21/24 actually runs faster than a 15/15 commando".

So... no.

Both holding knife? YES. But when holding perked weapons, support do move slower then other perks.

AA12 reloads in a second or so, and Hunting Shotgun reload can be cancelled BUT it still reloads so basically thats less than a seconds reload. Hows that slow? The normal shotgun isnt that slow either considering you can shoot beetween each shell reloaded.

It's about 2.5-3 second from my clock. And one second can get you kill twice on HoE.

lol, fair point but thats only if you get the bug which will hopefully be fixed. So that doesnt count towards balance.

I still think if they ganna fix anything, hit boxes is the first.

Not if you are carrying an AA12, and nothing gets near him anyway due his massive firepower.

Like I said, if a support can prevent anything to get close, demo can do even better. And even with mutiple support in the team, zeds STILL get close.


If everyone goes support they WILL win every game unless they are beginners.

Everyone using the same perk OWNS (may be except all medic). 6 same perks means everyone do the same thing using simlar (or even identical) tactics or attacks. It simply OWNS.
 
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I'm definitely not the best player here and never EVER run out of ammo as support. Just use common sense and don't waste 3 AA12 shots to take out a single clot. Plus the 24kg allows you to carry two shotguns and a katana, handcannon, or even m79 as a third weapon. I generally carry pump + hunting + handcannon; use the handcannon for the single trash zeds, pump for clumps of zeds and hunting for scrakes/fleshpounds and when I need to quickly kill a zed up close (bloats, husks, sirens, etc).

The problem I have with support is it is a perk that can do everything. Even if the scrake and fleshpound tricks didn't exist a support specialist can still deal major damage to them. The reload bonus is on the long side but the pump shotgun can be interrupted, and it only takes 1-2 shots to clear an entire hallway of trash zeds. This should give you plenty of time to reload. Technically the limited range is a weakness, but in the way the game is set up close combat is heavily favored in almost every circumstance.

Is support grossly overpowered and game-breaking? Absolutely not. I just feel it greatly overshadows the rest of the perks and is becoming way too common in games today. My PC broke and I probably won't be playing for some time so maybe when I come back support will be fun again and I'll appreciate it more. :p
 
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Both holding knife? YES. But when holding perked weapons, support do move slower then other perks.

The weapon you hold has no affect on your movement speed, unless it's a melee weapon that grants a speed boost. Supports do not suffer a speed penalty for the ability to carry 24 blocks.
 
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The weapon you hold has no affect on your movement speed, unless it's a melee weapon that grants a speed boost. Supports do not suffer a speed penalty for the ability to carry 24 blocks.

It's true, and to be honest I think this should change. If the support's carrying more than the others are able to carry he should at least move a bit slower than them. Might add a bit of strategy...
 
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I don't know why this topic got so big, but it apparently got it own reasons.

Playing on testmap, I found lots of other interesting combinations for other classes. And among them was my favorite SCAR + Crossbow combo.
In HoE full server, you can beat scrake with that combination. Shoot 10 bullets at scrake and 1 bolt in head will slow him down.

I got confused at what classes are overpowered and what are none. I finally mastered M14, so taking down FP on full HoE is not challenging anymore. Mastering other classes makes it difficult to judge others.

I think it really comes down how well player can manage his best perk.

Support takes time to master, but people who mastered it are rewarded.
I still think having normal speed with 24 weight and 11 nades is little bit OP. But again, if player can't make use of it, he just wasting dosh.

So after thinking a while, I think it all actually fine. If player can take advantage of all Supporters bonuses, he/she gotta be real KF pro and I think such players deserves it.

Yup, we done here. I don't think anything gonna happen anyway, unless massive patch kicks in.
 
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I don't know why this topic got so big, but it apparently got it own reasons.

Playing on testmap, I found lots of other interesting combinations for other classes. And among them was my favorite SCAR + Crossbow combo.
In HoE full server, you can beat scrake with that combination. Shoot 10 bullets at scrake and 1 bolt in head will slow him down.

I got confused at what classes are overpowered and what are none. I finally mastered M14, so taking down FP on full HoE is not challenging anymore. Mastering other classes makes it difficult to judge others.

I think it really comes down how well player can manage his best perk.

Support takes time to master, but people who mastered it are rewarded.
I still think having normal speed with 24 weight and 11 nades is little bit OP. But again, if player can't make use of it, he just wasting dosh.

So after thinking a while, I think it all actually fine. If player can take advantage of all Supporters bonuses, he/she gotta be real KF pro and I think such players deserves it.

Yup, we done here. I don't think anything gonna happen anyway, unless massive patch kicks in.

^^^^^This is exactly what I've been saying. Support is no more OP than any other perk if played the right way. We just did Manor on HoE in a group screwing around, 6 players, 6 DIFFERENT Perks, yet we still beat it fairly easily (wave 10) patty was a little more difficult, but we still pulled it off. We had demo, support, firebug, zerker, medic, and sharpie for wave 10. Patty I switched from medic to commando.
 
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Yep, i third that. My friend is amazing witht the M14EBR, not my thing because I can't stand the laser sight. However, I am better at Support than he is (though he is catching up). I have played support for a long time and perfectly honest, if everyone goes Support, it can get boring. I don't udnerstand what everyone has against firebug. Whenever my dad decides to have a go, he plays as firebug. He manages to get up to wave 8 with a fairly good pass rate on Hell On Earth solo, and that means he has to take on FleshPounds in wave 7 and 8, so really, I don't really think that one particular perk ourweighs another severely, it's just a lot of people have started playing support and now it looks that way cos we keep analysing it. ;)

We could do a test and see what we ind overpowered about other perks, and after enough analysis, will probably come up witht the same problem as Support. :rolleyes:
 
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It isn't that support is so much stronger than the rest of the perks; I was in a mass shaprshooter game a week or two ago and we absolutely wrecked everything. It's just that support can compensate for weaknesses better than any other perk (a little TOO good if you ask me). If you have a squad where 3-4 members are commando or firebug and your sole sharpshooter dies, scrakes are going to be a problem. If the demo dies, then fleshpunds might be an issue. On the other hand, if the shaprshooter dies and you have 3-4 supports backing him up it isn't really such a big deal. The value of each individual squad member is diminished and you don't really have to rely on everyone performing their role correctly. It makes the game easier in the sense that you can compensate for mistakes, while a demo dying immediately in the beginning of wave 10 with no supports is pretty much gg.

There just needs to be one time when support is not the best choice, or at least the safe perk to pick. There needs to be one risk factor for going mass supports (even though the all sharpshooter game I mentioned went smoothly, killing trash was more challenging than usual). I don't want the perk to be nerfed into oblivion, as it's not overpowered how sharpshooter and pipebombs were. I just think it should have a weakness or downside, just how every other perk (except maybe berserker, but that's another discussion ;)).

Aside from unperking the grenades (which I think most people here agree on) my suggestion is to scale his speed normally. This way you can still wreck everything with your two shotguns and M79, but sacrifice mobility as a tradeoff. :cool:
 
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Any above adverage player should not worry about ammo as any perk. That being said, support still being THE easiest perk to running out of ammo if real **** happens (such as 2 guy nade themselves when they see the first fp).

What lol? Are saying that Supports weakness is ammo when at least 2 teammates have died during the wave? That applies to every perk except zerker.

Both holding knife? YES. But when holding perked weapons, support do move slower then other perks.

No he doesnt, the weapon you carry doesnt affect the movements speed for anything else but select melee weapons.

It's about 2.5-3 second from my clock. And one second can get you kill twice on HoE.

Its basically the most powerful weapon in the game and it still takes the same amount of time to reload as any other weapon unless you have perk related reload bonuses. Thats wrong.

And that 2 seconds is more than enough time to reload the weapon on HoE if it can clear a hallway with half a drum -_-. Or even better just use the hunting shotgun to clear the hallway, then switch to AA12, reload it, and if time switch back to HS and clear the hallway again, then switch back to AA12 which you just releaded ... etc. And with your teammates backing you up theres no need to waste ammo unless it gets very crowded.

Like I said, if a support can prevent anything to get close, demo can do even better.

How so? Demo is much more expensive perk if he buys pipebombs, and reload time for m32 is also much slower than AA12, but its not any more powerful really all things considered. Not to mention not being able to kill anything at close range.

And even with mutiple support in the team, zeds STILL get close.

Yeah maybe thats because Support is a close range perk?

Everyone using the same perk OWNS (may be except all medic). 6 same perks means everyone do the same thing using simlar (or even identical) tactics or attacks. It simply OWNS.

Bleh.

Like you said medics would fail.

Firebugs would get in trouble on fleshpound/scrake waves.

Demos too cause they lack close-range attacks and they are extremely expensive if you want to get pipebombs, we tried that with 6 demos on HoE, it went amazingly well until one scrake and broke through and no-one was able to kill it. Maybe depends on the map.

Commandos would also have troubles with scrakes and fleshpounds.
Not as much as the other perks but certainly more trouble than Supports.

Berserkers - well they would probably beat the crap out of everything assuming they are decent players but that another topic.

Sharpshooters would be in trouble very quickly because they lack firing speed and everything happens so quickly on higher difficulties. Unless everyone in the team has amazing aim so they can get very quick headshots on everything.
 
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Btw, Firebugs against Scrakes are not so bad. Just need to set him on fire and, when he starts to perform his burn dance - spam flamer at him. You need about 120 fuel to kill SC on 6p HoE, so it can be done without reloading. On 2 firebugs in the team it's even easier - just flamer-spam him. He usually dies without hurting anybody. Of course, you will require a lot of fuel, but stockpiling flamers with in good team game isn't a problem.
2 commandos can kill SC without taking damage too: one should sit in the front of another and shoot in the Scrake's head. When SC gets close, commando in the front hits him with katana to prevent his attack for a moment. This time is enough to finish him by emptying SCAR magazine in the head.
But in the same time both Firebugs and Commando practically have no chances against Fleshpounds. Compare it to Support, who is #2 after demo on killing FPs and also is better for emergency killing Scrakes.
So I suggest one more to make Support weak against Scrakes (by adding shotgun damage resistance or something).
 
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Demos too cause they lack close-range attacks and they are extremely expensive if you want to get pipebombs, we tried that with 6 demos on HoE, it went amazingly well until one scrake and broke through and no-one was able to kill it.

5 katana headshots + 2 direct M32 headshots (in rapid succession) permaslow scrakes. If you want to win with 6 demos, you need to kite.
 
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5 katana headshots + 2 direct M32 headshots (in rapid succession) permaslow scrakes. If you want to win with 6 demos, you need to kite.


Slow scrakes are a bug, just like auto dying gorefasts, scrakes, and fleshpounds. You don't balance around bugs, you fix them.

But on that note, we should do a 6 demo run sometime :),
 
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What lol? Are saying that Supports weakness is ammo when at least 2 teammates have died during the wave? That applies to every perk except zerker.

NO, NOT AT ALL.
I NEVER have to switch to 9mm as M14/LAR ss when one or less teamates die... and... how much ammo do we have with 9mm? If I remember it right... 240.
Commando? With 375 shots on each gun (not sure is it excatly 375)?
Firebug you run out of ammo if you dont buy additional flammer (again, I would really like to have a vedio of "good firebugs").
Demo? I usually have 1 or 2 left in my M79 and 8-10 at my M32 or may be one pipe left (may be except wave 10).

Support is THE easiest perk to run out of ammo. You can count demo in too...


No he doesnt, the weapon you carry doesnt affect the movements speed for anything else but select melee weapons.

Yeah, I get this wrong.

Its basically the most powerful weapon in the game and it still takes the same amount of time to reload as any other weapon unless you have perk related reload bonuses. Thats wrong.

And that 2 seconds is more than enough time to reload the weapon on HoE if it can clear a hallway with half a drum -_-. Or even better just use the hunting shotgun to clear the hallway, then switch to AA12, reload it, and if time switch back to HS and clear the hallway again, then switch back to AA12 which you just releaded ... etc. And with your teammates backing you up theres no need to waste ammo unless it gets very crowded.

SAME RELOAD TIME? What ever you say... If you thinkg that's the same reload time... you dont play support enough (or you only use support so you think other guns reload at the same speed?) nd how can you dont count perk bonus in!? Many perk have reload bonus on their own guns.



How so? Demo is much more expensive perk if he buys pipebombs, and reload time for m32 is also much slower than AA12, but its not any more powerful really all things considered. Not to mention not being able to kill anything at close range.

PIPE BOME IS THE WORST weapon in game cost-effective-wise. WORST.
And unles you insist to have full load pipes EVERY WAVE, you should not have much problem.

M32 is NOT POWERFUL!? You MUST be kidding. Doing over 1000 damage on direct hit WHILE doing AREA damage which enough to stun all clots gorefasts and stalkers (most likely instan-kill them) and stun husks with direct hit, nearly instan-kill sirens and husks? Not to mention you can make ALL your 11 hand nades super effective. M32 must be weak enough.


Yeah maybe thats because Support is a close range perk?

You say it yourself, nothing get close. Also, support is good enough at medium range. The thing is, one demo prevents at least 70% of trash to medium zed from getting close WHILE SPIKING damage to fleshpound (or even kill it) and give much help to the team on scrakes if absolutely needed. Only one demo is enough to do that.

Bleh.

Like you said medics would fail.

Firebugs would get in trouble on fleshpound/scrake waves.

Umm.... do you actually know that flammer can do really high damage? We are taking about 6 flammer here. In case you are play as 6 FB, at least 2 of them should arm with katana to deal with trash.

Demos too cause they lack close-range attacks and they are extremely expensive if you want to get pipebombs, we tried that with 6 demos on HoE, it went amazingly well until one scrake and broke through and no-one was able to kill it. Maybe depends on the map.

Why you talk about pipes everytime... jsut dont buy it... M79 + M32 is powerful enough. It also gives you enough space to have a KATANA.
Clearly, in that game you are talking about, the FULL TEAM DEMO dont aware that AT LEAST one of them should use a katana and you SHOULD NOT stick too close together. 6 direct hit to upper body can kill that scrake. So each of the team only need one nade on the scrake. Then, even if he hasn't die, his target is taking one hit at most to give enough time for any of the teamate to back away far enough to make a m32 shot count. (and with 6 demo.... no one use LAW!?)

Commandos would also have troubles with scrakes and fleshpounds.
Not as much as the other perks but certainly more trouble than Supports.

Scrake can be kill REAL quick with two commando spamming ak on his face. If you can shoot PERFECTLY, one commando can kill scrake before he hits you.

With pounds, yeah, they may not be killed as easy as other perk. But ONE of the commando using M32 is already enough.


Berserkers - well they would probably beat the crap out of everything assuming they are decent players but that another topic.

Using 3 times time compare iwth any camping team while having a not that high success rate? Nevermind.

Sharpshooters would be in trouble very quickly because they lack firing speed and everything happens so quickly on higher difficulties. Unless everyone in the team has amazing aim so they can get very quick headshots on everything.

When you talk about reload... even AA12 reload time is fast on HoE. Then when you talk about ss... everything happens so quickly on HoE...

Because ANY decent sharpshooter can deal with bigs alone, you have FIVE people (at least most of the time, in case one of them need to help with the bigs) only handling trash while all targets can be one-shoted. YOU SHOULD BE hitting the head when playing kf anyway.
 
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Here's an example of a good firebug, courtesy of Scary_Ghost. 6 Man HoE, on Manor, only one flamethrower. We even had a medic in the game and survived.
YouTube - ‪Killing Floor - Teamwork 101 - 04‬‏


No offense.. but WHAT excatly did the player done? killing ~40 zeds at wave 10? Or what? "Weakening the zeds"? Who seems, in any way, need that tiny DoT? I cant notice from the vedio...
 
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