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Suppression, and why MG tactics aren't what they should be
- Thread starter Yellonet
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No. In DH your aim also gets kinda knocked off by a small amount by all the bullets hitting near by. It really stops you returning fire with any degree of accuracy.
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Which is pointlessly stupid.
ARMA II handles it perfectly. Can stand, crouch, prone, bipod fire, fire when not even aiming any of your guns. Of course the most accurate ways to fire are when you are using a bipod or resting your gun against something with your support hand by using the space key. RO2 just has this HURR DURR BULLETS NEARBY YOU CAN'T DO ****.
In reality if you're a battle-hardened soldier it makes no difference. You should see NO indication of nearby bullets in the air on your screen. You should hear them nearly bursting your eardrums with the supersonic crack.
ARMA II handles it perfectly. Can stand, crouch, prone, bipod fire, fire when not even aiming any of your guns. Of course the most accurate ways to fire are when you are using a bipod or resting your gun against something with your support hand by using the space key. RO2 just has this HURR DURR BULLETS NEARBY YOU CAN'T DO ****.
In reality if you're a battle-hardened soldier it makes no difference. You should see NO indication of nearby bullets in the air on your screen. You should hear them nearly bursting your eardrums with the supersonic crack.
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Bollocks. Come play on the servers I play on and I will show you. I regularly kill SMG and Riflemen even in unexpected CQB. I take down snipers at range and run and gun with the best of them.
If TWI would not jump on the "MG's suck" bandwagon and give me standing and crouched iron sights as well, it would be even better.
Suppressing fire is NOT about making peoples eyes go blurry. It is about SHOOTING THEM if they stick their heads up. Stop with the gamey effects and give me a real MG that allows me to SHOOT them rather than have an AOE role like some mage in an RPG. RO2 has got it more right than any game I've seen. Just not TOTALLY right.
Make the gun as accurate as they REALLY are, and you will NOT stick your head up if one is shooting at you. Not if you want to keep it.
Oh... I just remembered the main reason for "suppression" in other games. They put it in because the second you got behind a twig or a picket fence, you were indestructible. You could sit there while the whole world fired at you and nothing would touch you. So the games had "suppression" so at least you couldn't do anything back.
In a game with realistic ballistics and penetration that is not a problem. If there are a bunch if riflemen hiding in a house, you don't need to "suppress" them. Just shoot them through the walls. That's what real MG's do.
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On edit: That reminds me... what happened to barrel changes? I've never had to change a barrel. Maybe it's because I'm using it right? Three round bursts are what you fire for several reasons. When you fire a 3 round burst, the recoil combines into a single kick, meaning the three bullets leave the gun before the gun itself has had time to move very far. Thus it is easier to keep the gun on target if you give a light pause every three rounds so the gun can settle.
Also, by firing three rounds at a time rather than long bursts, you make it less obvious that you're using a machine gun, and thus draw less attention.
Add to that the better cooling that comes from not firing long sustained bursts meaning less frequent or no barrel changes.
See, if you make the game the way the real world works, and YOU know how to do stuff in the real world, then you can do it in game and benefit.
People think the RO2 MG's suck because they do not know how to use an MG. It's that simple.
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how is the mg not accurate? You can hit people over 200-250 yards with <10 bullets.
I think the MG when used correctly dominates most; and even more in CQC; hipfire can be accurate when you learn to compensate the jump of the gun.
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Imho, the MG34 and DP-28 make very distinctive sounds, like all the other weapons. Firing in bursts doesn't change that.
I have to change barrels after 3 mags sustained fire and I reach that time pretty quickly, by denying the Russians' way to the NCO barracks on Barracks.
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hit 6 for a barel change only had my mg 34 smoking once when i was hip firing it through the roof to try to get a few soviets off of it 
as for supression adding more gun sway when supressed and maybe a chance to fumbel reloads when fully supressed,
as for supression adding more gun sway when supressed and maybe a chance to fumbel reloads when fully supressed,
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[QUOTE
(Come on TWI, do you really think you can't shoulder fire an MG?)
They didnt do it like that in ww2, well the germans anyway. The MG helper would stand up and so would the mg gunner. The mg gunner would then place the mgt on the shoulder of the mg helper and start firing.
(Come on TWI, do you really think you can't shoulder fire an MG?)
They didnt do it like that in ww2, well the germans anyway. The MG helper would stand up and so would the mg gunner. The mg gunner would then place the mgt on the shoulder of the mg helper and start firing.
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I thought that was what I said...
No.
There is no fear of dying in a game, because we know it's a game.
It doesn't matter if you play a game that when you die exits and makes you unable to play for an hour, nobody would be fearing death anyway, it would just be annoying and you'd stop playing.
In a game, even as realistic as this, people take chances and that they would likely not if it were real combat, why?
Because it's fun and you can just wait a few seconds for the next reinforcement wave.
And as that is the case we need a simulation of how a person's body reacts under fire, shock full of adrenalin, tunnel vision and so on.
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I just had this idea today: How about having full supression cause the target not to be able to use the zoom feature? Firing back especially at longer ranges would be way harder and the target has a real disadvantage. This could boost the mgs effectiveness. Your thoughts?
I am not sure whether the mg is balanced right or not yet. As said, rifles simply pop your head, and this is most obvious in the hmgs. Using a stationary mg is simply suicide. The mg has potential to do loads of damage to the enemy, but I have not been able to truly tap it yet. The main problem seems to be that it takes about 0.5 seconds to do a presicion shot with a rifle at any range though...
I am not sure whether the mg is balanced right or not yet. As said, rifles simply pop your head, and this is most obvious in the hmgs. Using a stationary mg is simply suicide. The mg has potential to do loads of damage to the enemy, but I have not been able to truly tap it yet. The main problem seems to be that it takes about 0.5 seconds to do a presicion shot with a rifle at any range though...
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It's people thinking the MGs are supposed to preform "like in Saving Private Ryan" that's the reason they think they suck.
There's a word they liked to use back in WWII. It's called "displacement." They said it several times in the movie in fact. And it's the one thing I _never_ see MGers doing.
I'm gobsmacked that, on this forum of all places, people seem think they can set up an MG and unload on a horde of guys and they're all going to **** their pants and not try to do anything about it. In real life, if a riflemen looked through a window and saw the dome of an machine gunner sitting there, not looking at him, he'd put a round through his head and get a medal for his efforts. Nothing different his happening here. MGers are setting up, getting picked off from an angle they weren't looking at, and going "this is BS, no one should be able to do that to me!" They're playing the equivalent of the turtle defense in an RTS and getting mad that their opponents aren't playing the same game.
This is a video game. No amount of realism or mechanics will change the fact that someone is going to see that MG as a target of opportunity, and take them out. It's up to the MGer to play smarter, not for TWI to readjust the whole game around the MG so it's "suitably invincible" like people seem to want.
Honestly, it's like listening to snipers say their weapons don't do enough damage from other games. They want the best killing weapons and want to sit back with impunity and rape, or force an entire team drop what they're doing and flank them because they're just so bad ***.
That may not be completely fair, but after two threads of the same thing, it's getting old.
There's a word they liked to use back in WWII. It's called "displacement." They said it several times in the movie in fact. And it's the one thing I _never_ see MGers doing.
I'm gobsmacked that, on this forum of all places, people seem think they can set up an MG and unload on a horde of guys and they're all going to **** their pants and not try to do anything about it. In real life, if a riflemen looked through a window and saw the dome of an machine gunner sitting there, not looking at him, he'd put a round through his head and get a medal for his efforts. Nothing different his happening here. MGers are setting up, getting picked off from an angle they weren't looking at, and going "this is BS, no one should be able to do that to me!" They're playing the equivalent of the turtle defense in an RTS and getting mad that their opponents aren't playing the same game.
This is a video game. No amount of realism or mechanics will change the fact that someone is going to see that MG as a target of opportunity, and take them out. It's up to the MGer to play smarter, not for TWI to readjust the whole game around the MG so it's "suitably invincible" like people seem to want.
Honestly, it's like listening to snipers say their weapons don't do enough damage from other games. They want the best killing weapons and want to sit back with impunity and rape, or force an entire team drop what they're doing and flank them because they're just so bad ***.
That may not be completely fair, but after two threads of the same thing, it's getting old.
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Ro2007 said:
That's the difference between first hand knowledge and second hand knowledge. Yes they would do that, still do. Not ALWAYS. Once you have run around in the bush with an MG for a couple of days you will see that there is no such thing as "the way" to hold the MG. You might prop it on something or someone, you might fire from the hip, or shoulder. You might fire left or right handed. You have to do whatever it takes to point the gun at the target while keeping your head down as much as possible.
Same goes for all weapons really. The point is, its not IMPOSSIBLE to fire the gun from a standing unsupported position. It's just HARDER. Yet in this game it is IMPOSSIBLE. Why? What reason is there to make it impossible as opposed to just harder? Riflemen get different levels of sway and recoil depending on pose, so why not the MG? The MG-34 has a single shot option for that very reason. So that you can take an unsupported shot without the gun going wild. Why else have it?
So why do so many people moan when they can't respawn? In fact why are YOU so bothered by the "lack of suppression"? Surely you mustn't care if that rifleman pops up and takes you out... its only a game... right?
No the reason there are so many complaints about the weapons at the moment is because people like you are dying so easily and its getting to you. Protip: that is simulated fear of dying. Blurry eyes has nothing to do with it.
Everyone is looking for a way to change the game to make it less dangerous for them. That means it IS dangerous. At least that is how it is being perceived. It's just that you guys haven't realised that YOU are the problem, not the game. You need to change the way you play rather than moan about how its too hard.
You might. People like me see that as a challenge. In fact that is what a realistic tactical shooter is MEANT to be. Ever heard of "one life" servers? They exist because when you only have one life per round, you make it COUNT. No need for crappy vision effects and swooning.
Says who? I can go dig up THOUSANDS of stories about soldiers ignoring incoming fire, or even being hit, to take out an MG nest or bunker or whatever. We give medals for a reason.
Too many people have seen "Platoon" and think soldiers spend the entire war ****ting themselves and calling for mummy. Real soldiers aren't like that. Real soldiers play with high explosives because they have become desensitised to the fear of death. Wars wouldn't be possible otherwise.
How does a person's body react under fire? How does a bullet passing three feet away make your vision go blurry? In fact I have been in a state of near panic before and my vision became SUPER CLEAR. That''s what adrenalin does. Time slows down and everything looks like its happening in slow motion, your visual processing centre goes mad seeking every possible threat and alerting you to them. It is EASIER to fight under those body conditions. That's why your body does it.
It's called the fight or flight response, and it CERTAINLY is nothing like what this game (or any game) does.
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You must be the second hand knowledge if you are denyinng the fact that thats the ONLY way the germans fired the MG while standing up. And no long explanation about bushes and modern day crap will change that.
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No, no. Rifles simply pop YOUR head. I'm fine with taking them out. I know how to shoot an MG.
Those stationary MG's are suicide not because of them being MG's. Pick any weapon in the game and fix it to that location where you can not use it without being exposed, and you will be killed easily. It's because you are static, not because the gun is not "suppressing" properly.
In the real world a tripod mounted HMG would be a MILE away from the front line raining death from afar, not mounted on the corner of a building where it can only see targets 50m away. That's why you die in those positions. They are unrealistically sited, and thus unrealistically dangerous. The gun is irrelevant.
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Regarding the suppression bug where it gets stuck on:
I've found that having a teammate throw a grenade somewhere in suppression-triggering range of you will snap you out of it when it explodes. This may also work doing it yourself, but I haven't tested that yet.
I've found that having a teammate throw a grenade somewhere in suppression-triggering range of you will snap you out of it when it explodes. This may also work doing it yourself, but I haven't tested that yet.
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Oh really? So you know EVERY German machine gunner from WWII, and they all told you that they NEVER, EVER, fired the gun from any standing postion other than that.
Yeah, right. LOL.
Common sense says that the real world has rough edges. Sometimes you have to do wierd things to compensate. You don't WANT to fire an MG from the standing unsupported position, but if I'm just walking along and suddenly see a threat, I'm not going to think "no don't do it, it's against the rules!!!!".
In the real world if I'm walking along and a rifleman suddenly pops up aiming at me, the gun (which would already be in my shoulder) will come up, I'll sight him in and kill him. No second thoughts.
I wouldn't be FORCED to lie down and set up the gun on its bipod before being allowed to take an aimed shot. Especially not in a world where half the places you try to set up the gun refuse to allow it, or point you off in some ridiculous direction.
That's another point. How come I can lie down and deploy the gun on the bipod and take an aimed shot... but can't lie down and take an aimed shot without the bipod? You can not aim the gun unless it is on the bipod or a window sill or something. That's why gunners keep dying at the moment. They actually have limited places where they are allowed to fight, unlike every other class, and so if a gunner starts firing, its not too hard to find them. (Movement is key here... short burst, then move on)
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That was exactly my point. As soon as you are stationary, you are a goner. With the lmg you can at least go prone somewhere. When used like this and with good old RO expirience, as in being in flanking position with only one way of enemy aproach you decimate the enemy. They can be kiling machines, way more than rifles.
The hmgs however are just poorly executed. Most of the time they are in the most useless positions known to man without cover, wrong firing area and short range to target. A proper position would have cover reaching just below the muzzle of the gun, and in ideal cases a periscope optic. At the moment they are just deathtraps. Position, cover and setup of them needs to be reworked completely before they are even remotely useful.
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Have you ever fired a mg42? at all? because by the look of it, i really doubt you have, and all your so called knowledge stems from ww2 war movies.
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if any of you have played DoD, do you guys remember how devastating the mg42 was?
It didnt even have suppression modeled and it was still one of most feared weapons in game.
It didnt even have suppression modeled and it was still one of most feared weapons in game.
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