Yes, another thread about Sway.. This time with RL video reference

Mauser98k said:

I think the whole "sway" argument is stupid, personally. The sway is nearly perfect.

Weapon sway isn't nearly as powerful as games like to portray it. Even when you're running for a good 20 yards, come to a stop, and pull up your weapon, it won't be going back and forth like a pendulum. Heavy breathing does not affect how you support your weapon.

It's as if this argument was started by somebody who has never fired a weapon before.

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Most of the people I've been arguing against have never seen a real gun in their lives.

Swi1ch said:

I think sway is kind of a moot point. Go grab a rifle in RO2, stand up with it unsupported and aim at anything 150m or more away and the sway is more than enough to discourage twitch shooting.

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I'm glad more people are realizing this. There IS sway, plenty to make shooting unsupported at distances outside of 100-150m challenging but not enough to prevent you from scoring point-blank shots like RO1.

Disarray said:

It dosen't take much practise to get decently accurate with an accurate weapon. US Army rifle training is only about 2 weeks and in that time a person that has never shot a round in their whole life, let alone touched a rifle, can hit any target, human sized and shaped, they want from 1m-300m every time they pull the triger. Now that is an extreem caise of course, a score of around 50% is the minimum but most do better.

As for all the sway and cary on that people go on about; these weaponst wigh in at about 8-10lbs, that's about 3-5kg for you metric types. being held in two hands and as short as these weapons are do you realy think they would be that hard to keep still? It realy isn't.

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Thank you. Another person who realizes that shooting a gun isn't rocket science. Once you learn the basics of breath control and proper stance, you can put bullets into a target with alarming regularity. Sure, it takes a lot of practice to be a competition shooter, but a man is a pretty good-sized target for 100-150m and you don't have to hit him in the vitals to put him out of the action.

I don't know about you, but it'd be awful hard for me to fight with a bullet in my calf.

DiedTrying said:

How many here have fired a k98 or a mosin?

At 100 meters, could you hit a dinner play 5 times out of 5 while standing unsupported? Be honest.

I know I could hit it a couple times, but every time like you can in RO2?

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But the thing is, I -can't- in RO.

I can get a pretty good cluster, yes. Maybe even 5/5. But not consistently, and certainly not when the enemy is returning fire.

DiedTrying said:

How many here have fired a k98 or a mosin?

At 100 meters, could you hit a dinner play 5 times out of 5 while standing unsupported? Be honest.

I know I could hit it a couple times, but every time like you can in RO2?

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I have never fired those spacific weapons, no but similar ones. At 100m I supose I could land most the shots on target. 5 for 5 might be a bit of a strech of my ablities as a shooter though.

There is a problem here, though, with making a comparision between in game shooting and real world shooting. Put simply in the game bulets always hit where they are aimed, ie where ever the sights are the bulet will hit with out fail with no regaurd to range as long as you take into account bulet drop. In real shooting on the other hand the farther the bulet has to travle the more likely it is to miss the target. Even if the sights are dead center and you have taken into account bulet drop, wind and all the rest, there remains a chance that the bulet will miss. Look up 'minute of angle' if you want to know the nuts and bolts of it. The game is missing this factor, or at least dosen't have it repersented well enuf, so the shooting will allways seem more accurate than it should.

I can do pretty darn well in game tbh. If the target isn't moving, I can knock his helmet off every time (fallenfighters is a great example)

The k98 is a pretty heavy rifle and the sights aren't exactly modern. There is a good bit of weight on your left arm supporting the rifle. I'm a pretty good shot IRL and I know from experience that there is a good amount of sway. Controlling my breathing doesn't help anywhere near the degree it does in game.

Disarray said:

I have never fired those spacific weapons, no but similar ones. At 100m I supose I could land most the shots on target. 5 for 5 might be a bit of a strech of my ablities as a shooter though.

There is a problem here, though, with making a comparision between in game shooting and real world shooting. Put simply in the game bulets always hit where they are aimed, ie where ever the sights are the bulet will hit with out fail with no regaurd to range as long as you take into account bulet drop. In real shooting on the other hand the farther the bulet has to travle the more likely it is to miss the target. Even if the sights are dead center and you have taken into account bulet drop, wind and all the rest, there remains a chance that the bulet will miss. Look up 'minute of angle' if you want to know the nuts and bolts of it. The game is missing this factor, or at least dosen't have it repersented well enuf, so the shooting will allways seem more accurate than it should.

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The first time I fired a real gun in my life I hit a 2x2 pan at 200 yards 8 out of 8 times using an M1 garand. I was also 12.

To this day, I can do the same with my mosin nagant, k98, etc. Bullets do not just go wherever they want.

There's a chance that your grenade won't go off in real life too, but how often does that happen? I can guarantee you not enough to model in-game. Just like the chance of a round whipping into oblivion.

Josef Nader said:

Great video. Nicely illustrates the whole argument.

Now, to be fair, those are professional shooters whereas the Stalingrad soldiers were a mix, but as you can see pulling off shots within 100y is fairly easy, even out of breath, and it's more than possible to pull off deadly accurate 200y shots even after a hard sprint.

In other words, I'd say TWI has the sway right on the money. It's not enough to mess with your close quarters shots, but enough to screw with your long-range. Bravo, I say.

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Yes, those are professional shooters, using extremely lightweight weapons. Kar98 weighed 3.7 kg (8.2 lb) - 4.1 kg (9.0 lb) (via wikipedia). M4 carbine weighs 6.36 lb (2.88 kg) empty/6.9 lb (3.1 kg) with 30 rounds.

I didn't watch the whole video though, the guys were super annoying.

(YEA! DOES THAT MAKE YOUR GUN WET?!)

stayBlind said:

Yes, those are professional shooters, using extremely lightweight weapons. Kar98 weighed 3.7 kg (8.2 lb) - 4.1 kg (9.0 lb) (via wikipedia). M4 carbine weighs 6.36 lb (2.88 kg) empty/6.9 lb (3.1 kg) with 30 rounds.

I didn't watch the whole video though, the guys were super annoying.

(YEA! DOES THAT MAKE YOUR GUN WET?!)

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M16a4 with M203, Peq-15, and RCO weights more than a K98. The difference in weight between an M4, and M16 is barely noticeable.

You're more likely to notice how annoying it is to not be able to collapse the butt stock on an A4 before you notice the weight.

-Paas

The sway should increase a little when stamina is low.
I get how it may be enough sway, but I don't believe that there is no difference at all between firing exhausted and well rested.

So the difference between normal and exhausted sway should be increased, I do not really care if the normal is made less or the exhausted is increased.

The sway is actually pretty good when you realize the average engaging distance was 300 meters or something (discovery, don't remember what program), instead of the 900 meters in WWI.
The only thing conflicting with these nuymbers is the mist/dust and not the sway, to be honest.

DiedTrying said:

How many here have fired a k98 or a mosin?

At 100 meters, could you hit a dinner play 5 times out of 5 while standing unsupported? Be honest.

I know I could hit it a couple times, but every time like you can in RO2?

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Ive fired the mauser plenty of times (although chambered for the swedish round instead of the german, but its the same gun) and sure, its easy to hit stuff at 50-100 meters standing up unsupported.

thats not the point tho.

try running for a while, then stopping, aiming and firing within a second and hit those plates 5 times out of 5 again...

THATS the point here... that theres too much twitch-shooting where people are sprinting, stopping and just quickly popping of a dead-accurate shot before sprinting on.
Nobody i know can do that. You need about a second to get aligned and then theres no problem hitting your target, but before then its a gamble.

on the other hand, if its so damned easy to hit stuff completely unsupported like so many claim (its not hard, but its not the way it is in the game) why do you always go for a supported positioon in real life?
9 times out of 10 when im shooting a gun in real life, i always go for the supported positions.
why? well because the stabilisation times between shots are shorter if youre supported.
thats not how it is in the game right now.

no, my real question is has the devs ever fired a mauser or a mosin-nagant in real life?
after running...
unsupported and standing up...

i tried holding a pool stick still but I couldn't. it was really light but still impossible to keep 100% aligned from front to back without any slight movement.

Paas said:

M16a4 with M203, Peq-15, and RCO weights more than a K98. The difference in weight between an M4, and M16 is barely noticeable.

You're more likely to notice how annoying it is to not be able to collapse the butt stock on an A4 before you notice the weight.

-Paas

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sure, but its also completely different ergonomically... the M16/M4 has a pistol grip and ergonomic front, whilst the mauser/m-n is an old huntingrifle-like design with not-so ergonomic features...
Ive fired the mouser plenty of times, and whilst its not an uncomfortable weapon, its not anywhere near a modern assault rifle...
and it "feels" alot heavier than a modern gun (hell, it even feels heavier than the H&K G3, and thats a pretty hefty gun compared to most other assault rifles)

I don't see anyone shooting Mosin unsupported in that video

ATM game is much about running and gunning.
Although stamina/speed level may be more realistic then in RO1, that is not how urban or any other battle is fought,
and that is not the spirit of Red Orchestra.

I believe that is the reason why RO vets whine and complain.

Also, something thats important to this discussion is stance.

this is how most in this thread that have fired weapons are firing them:



this is how they fired them if firing standing up and unsupported



and this is how they would be fired in combat most of the time (if standing that is).


http://www.flickr.com/photos/lyle58/1436400558/

please note that you would hardly have time to aim for more than a second before you fired during wartime either...

i think what most here are talking about when theyre claiming they have excellent marksmanship whilst standing unsupported is in reference to picture 2 and using time between shots.

ive actually fired the mauser in "combat like situations" (but no, nobody was firing on me, but my commander was stressing all of us to move and shot, move and shot, with no more than a second to get a shot off) and its not easy and the gun does sway much more than it would if you took your own sweet time and used the "proper" way to stand whilst shooting.

PS. no, im not a reenacter, i was part of the swedish national guard youth and we all used both the mauser and the G3 (my mauser was from 1923, and very rusty and worn when i got to take it from the old armoury)

Well put Oddball.
there shouldn,t be constant sway for a gun but it should depend on what you're doing, so if you're standnig upright then sway/movement should decrease the longer you aim, its the current pop-up accuracy that's the problem.
It wouldnt bother me too much if the game was released as is then someone modded the feature in as an ultra realism thing.

I still feel the video is much different than a WW2 Stalingrad combat situation. But maybe when the morale system works properly, this will be simulated.

I still feel that wounds should have an effect on sway. Regardless of the video, I still think you should at leats not have identical sway when exhausted

It's not a realism issue for me. I would just have liked it better.

hekuball said:

there shouldn,t be constant sway for a gun but it should depend on what you're doing, so if you're standnig upright then sway/movement should decrease the longer you aim, its the current pop-up accuracy that's the problem.

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I can agree to this. Especially the pop-up part.

Maizel said:

I still feel the video is much different than a WW2 Stalingrad combat situation. But maybe when the morale system works properly, this will be simulated.

I still feel that wounds should have an effect on sway. Regardless of the video, I still think you should at leats not have identical sway when exhausted

It's not a realism issue for me. I would just have liked it better.

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Well I do think that the accuracy and sway (or the lack of it) are like that of superhumans in this game.
On top of that, it's not that relevant if the sway and accuracy are 'exactly what they are on the shooting range'. It does not:

- depict a combat situation
- balance the gameplay, the maps are confined and totally different than the real thing where there is a 360 approach to everything. Project Reality is a good example of that.

Talking about Project Reality, even PR has a built in delay when you ironsight the weapons to simulate the process of setting and getting your aim up.

Ironically, ROHOS tries to be realistic in weaponry and ballistics etc but the pop-up accuracy doesnt make sense at all in the light of this concept.

Oddball_E8 said:

Also, something thats important to this discussion is stance.

this is how most in this thread that have fired weapons are firing them:

please note that you would hardly have time to aim for more than a second before you fired during wartime either...

i think what most here are talking about when theyre claiming they have excellent marksmanship whilst standing unsupported is in reference to picture 2 and using time between shots.

ive actually fired the mauser in "combat like situations" (but no, nobody was firing on me, but my commander was stressing all of us to move and shot, move and shot, with no more than a second to get a shot off) and its not easy and the gun does sway much more than it would if you took your own sweet time and used the "proper" way to stand whilst shooting.

PS. no, im not a reenacter, i was part of the swedish national guard youth and we all used both the mauser and the G3 (my mauser was from 1923, and very rusty and worn when i got to take it from the old armoury)

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Just messing around I've attempted to aim as quickly as soldiers do in RO2 with my own Mauser and I can almost replicate it. You have to really practice it to get it down to the speed and precision in RO2. Practically slapping the rifle to my face and aiming as fast as I possibly can gets pretty close.

Even then I wouldn't be ready to fire right away at a long distance target (though you rarely would in the game either) but up close I could see it being used to make a more aimed shot than simply going from the hip. (as it's done in-game usually) But then you have to ask, should soldiers in RO2 really behave in a controlled, slow manner, or are they doing things as quickly as they can because they're in a life-and-death situation?

While I am personally comfortable with RO2's speed - I do think the aiming is a bit too fast and it's too easy to get a clear sight alignment with how quick the aiming is. Shouldering any rifle in RO2 should be slowed a little, really.

The issue of sway IMO is negated by the fact that you have to adjust your aim at long range while using the free-aim in IS feature. In that sense you're already compensating for any of your own movements.

What would've been neat to see tested is (slight) stamina drain based on how fast you shoulder and re-shoulder your rifle, to simulate arm fatigue, and the sway it would produce.

he is using a bipod and in crouched position.
he needs long time to even prepare and aim.
the weapon sway simulates that your body is not in perfect state to line up a shot perfectly.
it will be easier in crouched and proned position, thats why we need alot more sway in the game to simulate this problems when you are exhausted

Look up Biathlon for high stress shooting after exertion:

[url]http://youtu.be/e5mseV1dvXY[/URL]

http://youtu.be/6cZ9paTDL4o[url]http://youtu.be/6cZ9paTDL4o[/URL]

The target range shooting distance is 50 metres (160 ft). There are five circular targets to be hit in each shooting round. When shooting in the prone position the target diameter is 45 millimetres (1.8 in), when shooting in the standing position the target diameter is 115 millimetres (4.5 in).

Trained Olympic atheletes who use optics and guns built for precision. They take their time to aim, it's only 50m, and they still miss.