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How the Berserker is overpowered...

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#81
nutterbutter said:
A berserker can't equip a LAR or m79? Every zerker I have ever played with uses one or more ranged weapons as well as their melee weapons.



I disagree with that. Zerker has the speed and damage resistance to get out of bad decisions better than any other perk other than medic and that is if the medic has armor. I see it all the time. Zerker runs into the middle of a group and 20 seconds later he runs back and screams for the medic. No other perk, other than medic, has the speed to get out of trouble.



From my original post "I am assuming competent players, tactics, and decisions. I don't expect or require anyone to do anything suicidal or idiotic."


As for worse that a poor-anything-else, I am sure you have played with people who have no problem flaming everything in sight so other players can't see. Or demos who continually shoot 3 feet in front of the group. Or commandos, support, and sharpies who aggro the FP and scrake 100 feet away.
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But am I as strong at range as any other perk? Nope. That's balance, I am only utilizing my strength when I am in melee range. And no, I don't call running away "utilizing my strengths". We've gone over this before, imo this is a game of combat as well as survival.


It's not like the other perks have to stand stock-still, they can create a limited amount of time as well. Perhaps less then the Zerker or Medic but they can still do it.


So we're basically assuming perfect play? That's nice but it's obviously not realistic. Player error is a part of any game, and the consequences of errors are heightened for Berserker.


Probably a matter of opinion, but I would still assume these players are doing more damage then a Berserker who gets killed 30 seconds into a wave. Though he does usually leave a free Katana for me to pick up.
 
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#82
nutterbutter said:
I disagree. If every player is doing their role's job, the all players are better.
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If every player is doing their job, nothing will come close enough for the zerker.
Ideally, he will stand around watching enemies getting shot. I've been there. Fun times.
He will use ranged weapons and switch to something that better supports them eventually because if every player is doing their roles job, does it well and there is more than 2 players, there simply is no need for mobility or resilience whatsoever.
 
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#83
Evilsod said:
What scenarios? A wipe can happen to any team no matter how good the Zerker is. If the **** hits the fan and you try to bail then you'll walk into all the newly spawned specimens because of the ones your team killed before they died. This is just fact. Sure skill plays a part but luck is such a monumental factor that once you get above a certain level the differences in skill won't make much difference.


No that is how you balance competitive PvP games, which this game doesn't include. The top tier, especially a top tier that plays for prize money, have to be balanced around. but Killing Floor is a very long way away from that sort of game.
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Oh yeah dont get me wrong a wipe can happen in a split second. All it takes is for say a sharpshooter to miss a Fleshpound headshot...or for a siren to pop around the corner un-noticed.
So yeah im not denying that there are CERTAIN scenarios that will 90% of the time catch you out..!
But sadly to say and this is fact...when you are playing at a higher level of gaming those kind of scenarios are rare.

Why? because skill and gaming savvy eliminates them.

And to touch on your PvP balance thing - yes most games that have either major competitions or focus on PvP do need to be balanced on top end gamers...and KF is no exception and should be balanced on it too.

Why should say a newb who cant kill a scrake be the one to say 'man the hunting shotgun should have a 6shot barrell so i con kill it in one' ...and then Tripwire say 'yeah great idea'...so they put the 6shot barrelled shotty in...then a half decent player comes along and is like 'erm OP much?'

Its a ridiculous thought to let low end players balance a game.

Salad Snake said:
Funny, if you make every class with the same structure as a honors class it would be horrible for everyone but the quickest-thinking 10% of students. Yet that would be balancing on the top-tier no?


Also funny how most games that are balanced on top-tier only become fun after putting hours of work into it and making it to mid-tier. CS would be a case in point (or at least they claim to be balanced by top-tier, personally I don't think CS is balanced at all), SC and DOTA would be two others. About the only games I find that are comp-tested and still fun on the casual level are fighting games such as SF or MvC2.


The thing about KF is that it's a blast right from the get-go, even learning the controls and what the different weapons do is fun due to the oftentimes-humorous tool-tips that pop up on the HUD. I think accessibility was and still is important to KF's success, and balancing for casual play is a big step toward that.
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Im actually not sure what you are trying to say here dude? :confused:

If you say CS meaning counterstrike is not balanced then you havent played CS.
The beauty about that game is its perfectly balanced. You all run at the same speed, start with the same health!
It comes down to your skill or what ever hack you have installed ;) (game really is hacked to **** man)

But that opinion about games only becoming fun after X amount of time because they are balanced on top-tier gamers...is just a crazy crazy remark.

You cant judge what people call fun on what you think is right.

I played SC2 from beta stage...loved it..im playing SC2 now...love it. Sure im in a couple of diamond leagues...but ive worked my way up from bronze to gold to diamond...so ive played on all levels...and every level is fun!

So what you say there doesnt make sense.

You HAVE to BALANCE..balance being the VERY important word on BETTER players.

Its gaming knowledge and FACT.

But as you said...yup KF was a blast from the very moment i played it. I absolutely love the game.
But with the current state of the weapon balance it is too easy even on suicidal...mainly down to the EBR and XBOW - and due to this it will lose its appeal, because if people are not being challenged then they will migrate to other games.

The reason why Tripwire need to get this right is because we are shooting against A.I...! this isnt a human out smarting a human game!
 
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#84
Define a top tier player? Probably less than 1% of the community that plays frequently, which going by the Steam Stats, the peak for today is around 1700, so that would be less than 20 people who could be classified as top tier, the elite of Killing Floor. What are the chances those 20 people were on the same Suicidal server and could actually beat it if thats what it took? Literally 0, time zones would prevent it and it would only occur if it was planned which doesn't really count.
Change that to the veteran players who are very good and you've probably got a much bigger number, 1 which allows a better chance of getting a strong team capable of beating Suicidal. Suicidal is being balanced for these players, the hardcore players. Hard and Normal are being considered for the less hardcore and more casual players.

And KF is a bleeding exception. It has nothing to do with PvP, there is no prize money and it has a small playerbase. It has difficulty settings that allow different difficulties to be balanced for different players and the top tier simply isn't feasible to be balanced for. SC2 can still be picked up and played at lower levels competitively assuming they are against other low level players.
 
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#85
Alright, now we are getting somewhere. :)

Salad Snake said:
But am I as strong at range as any other perk? Nope. That's balance, I am only utilizing my strength when I am in melee range. And no, I don't call running away "utilizing my strengths". We've gone over this before, imo this is a game of combat as well as survival.
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Sure, a zerker using a LAR, xbow, m79, or any other unperked weapon isn't going to do the same damage as a perked weapon. But it is good enough to do the job. This is the same reason by the aa12 and m32 is popular with the commando. They don't get perked damages, but their perks proper more than make up for the lesser damage. Same thing with the m79. Would you rather have a demo on your team or a medix with an m79? I'd say that 95% of the time, the medic with the m79 is good enough.

Think of it this way. You fire a rocket at a clot that does 1000 damage. (I'm just making up numbers here). I HS that same clot for 100 damage. Who has done more damage? We've done the same amount.

A better example. I'm a sharpie and I carry a LAR. You're a zerker and carry a LAR. We both can HS specimens. If we each HS the same type of specimen, does my 60% perk damage bonus really matter? Which perk is better with the LAR? A zerker with all of his other perks or the sharpie with the LAR plus 60% damage? I'd take the zerker every day. Same argument with the demo and the m79.

If an unperked weapon is good enough, then that is all that matters. And that is a big reason why I think the zerker is OP. Weapon base damage is good enough. When mixed with the zerker's no weaknesses, he is OP.


Salad Snake said:
It's not like the other perks have to stand stock-still, they can create a limited amount of time as well. Perhaps less then the Zerker or Medic but they can still do it.
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Not perhaps. Zerker can create space to safely reload. If a perk needs to reload while a crawler is there, that crawler chews on him. With the medic and zerker, they can create time to safely reload. Plus the zerker and medic speed allows them to disengage when they need to. Other perks can't. If they find themselves in a bad position, there is no getting out quickly.


Salad Snake said:
So we're basically assuming perfect play? That's nice but it's obviously not realistic. Player error is a part of any game, and the consequences of errors are heightened for Berserker.
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I don't think so. I think the zerker is the most forgiving perk. They can always run. They can always disengae when they need to. A bloat dropping on zerker isn't instant death.

I understand your point about the other perks having time to miss shots and re-aim while the specimens are away. The other perks fight at a distance. But, I don't consider those specimens to be a threat because they can't hurt the player.

Salad Snake said:
Probably a matter of opinion, but I would still assume these players are doing more damage then a Berserker who gets killed 30 seconds into a wave. Though he does usually leave a free Katana for me to pick up.
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Any perk should be doing more damage than any other perk that dies 30 seconds into a wave.



9_6 said:
If every player is doing their job, nothing will come close enough for the zerker.
Ideally, he will stand around watching enemies getting shot. I've been there. Fun times.
He will use ranged weapons and switch to something that better supports them eventually because if every player is doing their roles job, does it well and there is more than 2 players, there simply is no need for mobility or resilience whatsoever.
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Ehh, I agree somewhat but not totally. Sure, the game can get boring if everyone is popping everything 30 feet away. Same for the medic as well. Much worse if everyone expects the support to weld the entire wave. :) But once those FPs and scrakes start spawning, melee is needed.
 
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#86
nutterbutter said:
I think the zerker is the most forgiving perk.
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I just thought i'd highlight this so people can be certain nutter hasn't got a clue what he's talking about. The Zerker, on the frontline, actively running at specimens so he has more ground to give up when necessary, is the most forgiving perk? When the SS misses a 9mm shot not a lot happens for 0.2 seconds before the shot, when the Zerker misses a melee hit he can get hit or swarmed or killed.
 
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#87
Voodoo Shoe said:
Im actually not sure what you are trying to say here dude? :confused:

If you say CS meaning counterstrike is not balanced then you havent played CS.
The beauty about that game is its perfectly balanced. You all run at the same speed, start with the same health!
It comes down to your skill or what ever hack you have installed ;) (game really is hacked to **** man)
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Really? It's balanced because all the player-characters are the same? That's not balance, that's common sense in any non class-based game. (Not to mention boring, but that's subjective)

It's unbalanced because certain weapons are blatantly underpowered compared to others, but no one wants to implement the sweeping balance changes needed because the community is so adverse to change after running around Dust2 for over9000 hours. M4/AK are blatantly overpowered compared to AUG, despite being cheaper. The UMP is a piece of junk compared to almost every other weapon. 95% of players use the same 6 weapons despite there being over 20 in the game. That's piss poor weapon balance.

And then you get people who always say "Well, if you're SKILLED enough you can overcome the limitations of every weapon." Sure I can, but the point is I shouldn't need to. If some weapons take more effort to achieve the same results, that's because my effort is making up for some imbalance in the gun itself. An AWP takes a ton less effort to do well with then a Scout.

CS basically comes down to map knowledge and patience, since the game mechanics discourage rushing and encourage camping unless you have flashbangs, but guess what most servers have banned....

Voodoo Shoe said:
But that opinion about games only becoming fun after X amount of time because they are balanced on top-tier gamers...is just a crazy crazy remark.

You cant judge what people call fun on what you think is right.

I played SC2 from beta stage...loved it..im playing SC2 now...love it. Sure im in a couple of diamond leagues...but ive worked my way up from bronze to gold to diamond...so ive played on all levels...and every level is fun!

So what you say there doesnt make sense.
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All you have to do is go to your local arcade to see some games that are balanced toward high-tier players but woefully imbalanced toward newbies.

Let's take Blazblue (hope you've heard of it). Jin's Ice Car attack has high priority, good damage, and freezes for additional hits if it's the D-attack version. It's earned Jin a reputation as an easy-to-learn character because it's extremely effective in a newbie player's hands. However, a good player know what situations his or her opponent will use it, and it's fairly telegraphed so at high levels it's balanced.

In CS, the AWP basically makes the game a point & click adventure. To newbies without map knowledge, giving one of them an AWP basically means that one player gains the overwhelming advantage in any direct confrontation. However, at higher levels of play, where players know the typical sniper spots for the map, the AWP becomes more of a hazard the team has to avoid and less of an actual threat, and thus is somewhat-balanced due to it having more a psychological effect then actually doing damage.
 
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#91
nutterbutter said:
Sure support has massive firepower with the aa12. And yes, it can reset a hallway very quickly. But what if the aa12 is low or doesn't have any ammo? What happens when that aa12 or dual cannons have to be used to clear all of the specimens in front while an FP or scrake(s) are in the back? Or what about those crawlers that jump from the back up front?
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T_T

AA12 clears a hallway with one clip in 3 seconds from a safe distance. Katana does the same on 30 seconds assuming theres 20+ specimens and you have to prioritze targets, and in that time youve probably been hit multiple times by a husk, crawlers, possibly speeding gorefasts, a siren and an exploading bloat.

Every weapon has its weaknesses, for AA12 its low ammo and for katana its range.
 
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#92
Well if we're melee weapons to empty guns, then sure melee weapons would seem overpowered. :rolleyes:

But in my experience, you can keep your guns from running dry too often except at the end of waves or if you were being stupid. And even then, it's typically Support, Demo, and Firebug that need to worry about ammo. Sharpie and Commando have enough ammo the vast majority of the time.
 
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#93
Salad Snake said:
Really? It's balanced because all the player-characters are the same? That's not balance, that's common sense in any non class-based game. (Not to mention boring, but that's subjective)

It's unbalanced because certain weapons are blatantly underpowered compared to others, but no one wants to implement the sweeping balance changes needed because the community is so adverse to change after running around Dust2 for over9000 hours. M4/AK are blatantly overpowered compared to AUG, despite being cheaper. The UMP is a piece of junk compared to almost every other weapon. 95% of players use the same 6 weapons despite there being over 20 in the game. That's piss poor weapon balance.
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You really dont give CS the credit it deserves for balance.
There is one this implemented in the game that makes EVERYTHING balance...and thats being able to headshot with any weapon.
Doing that it means it doesnt matter what weapon you come up against you always have a chance of winning the battle.

Yes some weapons are ofcourse better then others - my favourite is the AK and pumpshotgun...but if i miss a critical shot with an AK...i can get gunned out by a pistol - thats the nature of the game.

So it doesnt matter at all what weapon you chose you have a chance of smashing it up...so to be fair dude what you said about the M4/AK vs the AUG is totally moot.

And then you get people who always say "Well, if you're SKILLED enough you can overcome the limitations of every weapon." Sure I can, but the point is I shouldn't need to. If some weapons take more effort to achieve the same results, that's because my effort is making up for some imbalance in the gun itself. An AWP takes a ton less effort to do well with then a Scout.
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See thats gaming stubborness...if you want an easy game to play then you should play console shooters...halo being the best for no skill but kill.

When playing on PC you want their to be elitist weapons and players because its the only format that allows you to show 'TRUE SKILL'..!

A good player will out shoot me 90% of the time regardless what weapon he has and what i have....yeah sure i can increase my chances by using the 'super noob cannon'...but i still have to do more DPS to him then what he does to me otherwise im dead...and the deciding factor to that is skill with some luck.

Pros will use the scout and outgun awp players...! the problem was with the awp was the fact that yes it is too powerful for nature of the game...too many choke points.


All you have to do is go to your local arcade to see some games that are balanced toward high-tier players but woefully imbalanced toward newbies.

Let's take Blazblue (hope you've heard of it). Jin's Ice Car attack has high priority, good damage, and freezes for additional hits if it's the D-attack version. It's earned Jin a reputation as an easy-to-learn character because it's extremely effective in a newbie player's hands. However, a good player know what situations his or her opponent will use it, and it's fairly telegraphed so at high levels it's balanced.
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I havent heard of Blazblue sorry and sadly local arcades are dying a death sadly.

But what you said about balance is just insane man..! it doesnt make sense.
The reason why these people are good is because THEY ARE GOOD. Why should they be punished by dumbing down games?

Everygame pretty much has a learning curve. Some people give up others excel past.
Every game is playable by everyone...its just some games dont suit some gamers...and just because of that it doesnt need to be turned into an auto-aiming console shooter just to suit someone who cant beat the learning curve.

Again i will say..if games are balanced on **** players you will get a **** game...! Halo and COD on console are a prime example of **** gamers playing a **** noobed up game.
 
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#94
Voodoo Shoe said:
You really dont give CS the credit it deserves for balance.
There is one this implemented in the game that makes EVERYTHING balance...and thats being able to headshot with any weapon.
Doing that it means it doesnt matter what weapon you come up against you always have a chance of winning the battle.
Unless....they're wearing armor or your weapon requires two headshots to kill. Like the UMP.


Yes some weapons are ofcourse better then others - my favourite is the AK and pumpshotgun...but if i miss a critical shot with an AK...i can get gunned out by a pistol - thats the nature of the game.

So it doesnt matter at all what weapon you chose you have a chance of smashing it up...so to be fair dude what you said about the M4/AK vs the AUG is totally moot.
Ok, so you're basically saying that the game's balanced because everyone can use the overpowered weapons if they want? Laughable.


See thats gaming stubborness...if you want an easy game to play then you should play console shooters...halo being the best for no skill but kill.

When playing on PC you want their to be elitist weapons and players because its the only format that allows you to show 'TRUE SKILL'..!
Actually, I wouldn't want elitists in ANY game I play. And I don't give a damn if anyone is skilled in a game or not, I don't place any importance on that tbh.


A good player will out shoot me 90% of the time regardless what weapon he has and what i have....yeah sure i can increase my chances by using the 'super noob cannon'...but i still have to do more DPS to him then what he does to me otherwise im dead...and the deciding factor to that is skill with some luck.
Yeah, but if two evenly skilled players meet, an AK/M4/MP5 user WILL beat a FAMAS/AUG/UMP user a vast majority of the time. That's weapon imbalance.

Pros will use the scout and outgun awp players...! the problem was with the awp was the fact that yes it is too powerful for nature of the game...too many choke points.
Just because a pro player can use an underpowered weapon to kill newbs with an overpowered weapon doesn't mean the weapons are suddenly balanced.



I havent heard of Blazblue sorry and sadly local arcades are dying a death sadly.
I disagree. Arcades are on the rise here due to gaming becoming more mainstream, as well as fighting games, the main arcade fodder, becoming more "flashy".


But what you said about balance is just insane man..! it doesnt make sense.
The reason why these people are good is because THEY ARE GOOD. Why should they be punished by dumbing down games?

Everygame pretty much has a learning curve. Some people give up others excel past.
Every game is playable by everyone...its just some games dont suit some gamers...and just because of that it doesnt need to be turned into an auto-aiming console shooter just to suit someone who cant beat the learning curve.

Again i will say..if games are balanced on **** players you will get a **** game...! Halo and COD on console are a prime example of **** gamers playing a **** noobed up game.
The hilarious thing is that CoD makes many of the same balance mistakes that CS does. Encouraging camping, easy 1-shot weapons, shotguns that are way too unreliable.....I do like regenerating health systems though.
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This is getting quite off-topic I must admit. But then most of us have already reached consensus on the original topic.
 
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#95
Salad Snake said:
Well if we're melee weapons to empty guns, then sure melee weapons would seem overpowered. :rolleyes:
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Again, it isn't just one single thing that makes the zerker overpowered. It the combination of everything.

Don't get me wrong. Responding to to people who say the zerker isn't OP while they bring up one thing and ignore everything else certainly is fun, but people really should consider the zerker as a whole.
 
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#96
nutterbutter said:
Again, it isn't just one single thing that makes the zerker overpowered. It the combination of everything.
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The way you are posting makes it sound as though everything is overpowered and needs fixing. The problem really seems to come from the zerker's speed and survivability in general.

The zerker reduces the damage he takes in two ways, 1) he can dodge, 2) he has bonus damage mitigation. Combined with the fact the zerker can't be grabbed, the zerker has more survivability than any other perk which seems unfair. The medic has speed and armor too, but medics can be grabbed at least, and they don't have any heavy weapons in their perk.

The reason why the bersker has both damage mitigation and speed is so he can play as a tank with a chainsaw, or he can run into a group, dodge attacks and chop specimens into pieces with an axe or katana. Since the bonuses apply to anything the zerker uses, they become very strong with the katana (but since the chainsaw slows you down more it isn't useful). To me it seems as if the berserker really needs more weapon specific perk bonuses. Bonus damage mitigation while using the chainsaw, bonus speed if you are using any other berserker weapon. Zerkers will still be able to dodge and kite enemies with the katana, but if they mess up they will pay for it.
 
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#97
nutterbutter said:
Again, it isn't just one single thing that makes the zerker overpowered. It the combination of everything.

Don't get me wrong. Responding to to people who say the zerker isn't OP while they bring up one thing and ignore everything else certainly is fun, but people really should consider the zerker as a whole.
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You are doing it too.
 
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#98
All I ask is that you guys consider more creative solutions than outright nerfing. Because all of it is relative to skill level; all we need to do to solve all debate is to add some sort of "ceiling" if you will. I still think the new beta lack-of-stun should do it, but if you disagree and have a better idea, go on ahead:D
 
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#100
Sammers said:
Dude, you're getting nowhere. You are arguing against insurmountable people about a point that you are wrong on. Give it up.

I'm surprised this thread full of mind-rape is still here :(
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Yes, everyone understands that you think I'm wrong. That's cool. If that is all you are going to say, then you've had your say now leave. If you want to discuss the topic then please contribute positively.
 
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