Realism, Class/Weapon upgrades

[Sarkis.]

Originally Posted by Sah.

even a little is too much.

No. It's a little I also don't like the bonuses, but we got to call them for that they are.

Originally Posted by Sah.

In RO2, i feel the capacity to be good is greatly reduced. Not only because of the levelling up stuff, but because the game itself is easier. You move faster, it's easier to shoot, you have more stamina. Just easier.

You know that all of that which you call easier, makes the game equally easier for everyone else, which in this case ends up meaning that you have an equal time as you did in RO1. If in game X everyone has power 1... and in game Y everyone has power 5... the game hasn't really become any more difficult or easier, provided it is a multiplayer game where the opponents are humans.

Easier to shoot will always imply in easier to getting hit. Be mindful of that. I really think your criticism is not quite targeted at that, but rather something else. Specifically at how in RO2 it is easier to do those things in relation to RO1, how our characters are more realistic now, and somethings such as headshots at 50 meters are not so much of a challenge anymore. That is true, but again... is easier for everyone else. Or at least I think that is what you meant.

[Sulman]

Hmm. I think his point was RO2 requires speed and little else. RO1 a player could succeed with a much broader strategy, even taking their time. If you try that in RO2 you'll usually end up sitting in safe spots because God forbid you wander into a zone with twitch players; they'll ping you in fractions of a second.

This wasn't easy in RO1, even accounting for the aiming fast-clicking trick.

An RO1 vet would be at home on Barashka or Winterwald, and even Bridges, but maps like Station, Apartments etc are like playing other games; ones much more associated with the casual KDR-sniffing crowd.

[Rabid Penguin]

Originally Posted by Sulman

If you try that in RO2 you'll usually end up sitting in safe spots because God forbid you wander into a zone with twitch players; they'll ping you in fractions of a second.

I think that would actually make it closer to real life...

[Mekhazzio]

Originally Posted by Sulman

Mekhazzio has written on many occasions that the weapons themselves aren't actually as accurate as people think, and while that is true it doesn't change the problem - people achieve an astoundingly high kill probability when one considers the whole system of weapon accuracy, aiming, and movement mechanics.

Hmm? That depends entirely on the weapon. Taking just the innate mechanical behavior, bench-rest shooting, the rifle-caliber weapons are extremely precise (significantly more than their real-life counterparts) while the pistol-caliber weapons are quite inaccurate (significantly less than IRL).

The difference in rifle accuracy is almost irrelevant - due to very low value chosen for zoom and the aggressive atmospheric effects, effective combat range generally tops out at 250 meters or nearer, which is easy spitting distance for your typical rifle (much less MG) of the era. The difference in subgun accuracy is clearly an intentional exaggeration to try to keep them from being dominant at all practical ranges in the game, as they otherwise would be.

As for the "astoundingly high kill probability", it's not very astounding. WW1 stagnated into trench warfare precisely because of the sheer lethality of industrial-era combat. Conventional military tactics up until that point were created under the assumption that most shots would miss. The War to End All Wars (heh) was such a shock because suddenly that truism was reversed: most aimed shots would hit. An exposed person was, now, a dead person, guaranteed. Thus, the trenches. Fast-forward over 20 years which saw the widespread introduction of LMGs and SMGs...

When you place these weapons into tightly confined urban areas, as we always do in RO2, if there is any other result than a bloody meat grinder, the simulation is doing something very wrong.

Originally Posted by PhoenixDragon

Looks to affect the rate of the zoom effect transition, which at max-level makes the zoom take 80% of the time. Considering how quick it is already, that's a pretty negligible difference. Another one of those things you'd be hard-pressed to notice, even if you knew of it.

It also affects the transition rate of the depth of field effect, if there's anyone out there that hasn't turned it off.

[Sulman]

Originally Posted by Mekhazzio

Hmm? That depends entirely on the weapon. Taking just the innate mechanical behavior, bench-rest shooting, the rifle-caliber weapons are extremely precise (significantly more than their real-life counterparts) while the pistol-caliber weapons are quite inaccurate (significantly less than IRL).

The difference in rifle accuracy is almost irrelevant - due to very low value chosen for zoom and the aggressive atmospheric effects, effective combat range generally tops out at 250 meters or nearer, which is easy spitting distance for your typical rifle (much less MG) of the era. The difference in subgun accuracy is clearly an intentional exaggeration to try to keep them from being dominant at all practical ranges in the game, as they otherwise would be.

As for the "astoundingly high kill probability", it's not very astounding. WW1 stagnated into trench warfare precisely because of the sheer lethality of industrial-era combat. Conventional military tactics up until that point were created under the assumption that most shots would miss. The War to End All Wars (heh) was such a shock because suddenly that truism was reversed: most aimed shots would hit. An exposed person was, now, a dead person, guaranteed. Thus, the trenches. Fast-forward over 20 years which saw the widespread introduction of LMGs and SMGs...

When you place these weapons into tightly confined urban areas, as we always do in RO2, if there is any other result than a bloody meat grinder, the simulation is doing something very wrong.It also affects the transition rate of the depth of field effect, if there's anyone out there that hasn't turned it off.

Be that as it may men walking upright across flat fields were hardly difficult targets; it took time for the culture to adjust. In the early years, Infantry could not take cover, could not run, hence the slaughter.

Vietnam was a very different story, much, much ammunition was expended vs kills.

When I speak here of probability of kill, I mean a player's whole engagement cycle. In realism, players can engage very rapidly from any stance and be guaranteed their barrel is pointing where they command it. That has a huge effect on play.

[Sarkis.]

Originally Posted by Sulman

Be that as it may men walking upright across flat fields were hardly difficult targets; it took time for the culture to adjust. In the early years, Infantry could not take cover, could not run, hence the slaughter.

Vietnam was a very different story, much, much ammunition was expended vs kills.

When I speak here of probability of kill, I mean a player's whole engagement cycle. In realism, players can engage very rapidly from any stance and be guaranteed their barrel is pointing where they command it. That has a huge effect on play.

But that ain't so in Realism or any other mode of the game. Stance has a big part to play, as well as the three kinds of sway (inherent sway, arms tiring sway, and breath up and down cycle), stamina as well, bracing your weapon, obviously depending on the weapon, and the distance, simply aiming perfectly at the enemy does not provide a hit. Even many hits also fail to provide a kill.

Shamefully, leveling bonuses practically kill the inherent sway. Crouching kills the arms tiring sway. Holding your breath kills the breath sway. But even still, we miss a lot more than we hit. Why else shouldn't our barrels not point to where we command them? Aside from the effects of sway, that are currently not perfected in RO2.

[Mekhazzio]

Originally Posted by Sulman

Vietnam was a very different story, much, much ammunition was expended vs kills.

The conflict where all the archetypal "soldier in action" photographs & film have them blind-firing, hip-firing, or shooting at a 20 degree elevation? The conflict that triggered the US Army (a force traditionally in love of firepower to excess) to remove full-auto from their standard assault rifle, that made them -glad- to be rid of conscripts?

The shots-to-kill figures from that have pretty much nothing to do with weapon accuracy. The Vietnam War is the just the best example of the universal phenomenon: most shots are fired without even having a target, because nobody wants to expose themselves enough, or wait long enough for the target to show itself, to take an aimed shot. It's no mystery why that is...

[danh]

Originally Posted by Mekhazzio

Most stats with any combat relevance cap out at 10%, and there's a lot of misconceptions about what they do. For example, nothing at all ever increases your sprint duration, health, damage, accuracy or most any other core FPS stat.

Are you sure nothing improves accuracy?! I am pretty sure my accuracy improved over 50%. If the game stats isn't improving my accuracy then it must be that new mouse I got.

[Sarkis.]

Originally Posted by danh

Are you sure nothing improves accuracy?! I am pretty sure my accuracy improved over 50%. If the game stats isn't improving my accuracy then it must be that new mouse I got.

You are getting better and more accurate, and your new mouse is helping. Aside from a little bit of recoil bonuses, there is nothing in game that should help one's accuracy, let alone weapon inherent accuracy.

Aside from all that, the game did receive Client side hit detection a few months ago, thanks in great part to Mek himself, and his antilag mutator which had penetration improvements and bullet ricochets among other small fixes.

Bullet ricochets TWI, ricochets! A mutator, a mutator that added fully functional bullet ricochets! You hear TWI!? Good to know you're hearing

Bayoneting people over windows was also nice, too bad we can't quite do that in RO2 yet.

Removing hitscan was also a pretty big thing TWI, you still there? Oh great! Yeah, hitscan on small arms, and tank guns and pretty much anywhere really sucks massive king kongs balls.

While we're at it... Bullets coming out from their barrels no matter whether you are looking through your sights or not is also very welcomed!

TWI, you should probably be looking back at that mutator and stealing some of its features.

Thank you!

[danh]

Originally Posted by Sarkis.

You are getting better and more accurate, and your new mouse is helping. Aside from a little bit of recoil bonuses, there is nothing in game that should help one's accuracy, let alone weapon inherent accuracy.

Sorry. I was joking.