Complaints and Grievances

[CocaineInMyBrain]

Originally Posted by Gopblin

The point about community being rigid is partly true, but I'm not sure how that is a problem. Let's say a whoever makes Hearts of Iron decides that HOI4 will be a crappy Starcraft clone with zergs reskinned into Soviet conscripts. The community will make a sh*tstorm and leave, and the Starcraft crowd will keep playing mainstream RTS titles.

This would only be true if we're talking about SC 2. The original SC and BW was no easy thing to play, unless you were messing about in User made maps.

[Gopblin]

I'm not saying SC is a dumb game or a bad game, I was just saying that it would be a bad idea to pitch a crappy SC clone called "Hearts of Iron: Stalingrad" to the Hearts of Iron community.

IMO the devs were trying to get two birds with one stone - please the community and attract the CoD kiddies, and ended up missing both.

Best wishes,
Daniel.

[CocaineInMyBrain]

Originally Posted by Gopblin

I'm not saying SC is a dumb game or a bad game, I was just saying that it would be a bad idea to pitch a crappy SC clone called "Hearts of Iron: Stalingrad" to the Hearts of Iron community.

IMO the devs were trying to get two birds with one stone - please the community and attract the CoD kiddies, and ended up missing both.

Best wishes,
Daniel.

Its the old adage of "when you try to please everyone , you end up pleasing no one "

Unfortunately it has held true so far

[Sulman]

God, I hate 'competitive' players. You know the kind I mean. The worst thing about modern gaming.

Miserable, tiny fraction of losers that claim to speak for the entire community. People that have never achieved a f**king thing in their entire lives spending every waking hour trying to get a competitive advantage in a computer game.

Tragic.

Go for a walk. Learn to enjoy life.

[CocaineInMyBrain]

Originally Posted by Sulman

God, I hate 'competitive' players. You know the kind I mean. The worst thing about modern gaming.

Miserable, tiny fraction of losers that claim to speak for the entire community. People that have never achieved a f**king thing in their entire lives spending every waking hour trying to get a competitive advantage in a computer game.

Tragic.

Go for a walk. Learn to enjoy life.

We're lucky here to have the really uber competitive guys separate from the old school vet guys. In SC those 2 groups overlaps and made the community a miserable mess of rage and angst.

[Sulman]

Originally Posted by CocaineInMyBrain

We're lucky here to have the really uber competitive guys separate from the old school vet guys. In SC those 2 groups overlaps and made the community a miserable mess of rage and angst.

Oh man, the IL2 community back in the day, too. Utterly hostile environment with continual in-fighting about no-cockpit view, trackIR, padlock etc, luftwhiners. Horrible.

Oleg Maddox developed utter contempt for the community - because a of a small number of people - and it was really quite sad.

[Kekkonen]

Originally Posted by Sulman

God, I hate 'competitive' players. You know the kind I mean. The worst thing about modern gaming.

Miserable, tiny fraction of losers that claim to speak for the entire community. People that have never achieved a f**king thing in their entire lives spending every waking hour trying to get a competitive advantage in a computer game.

Tragic.

Go for a walk. Learn to enjoy life.

Nonetheless you're posting your useless opinion on a internet forum.

[Sulman]

Originally Posted by Kekkonen

Nonetheless you're posting your useless opinion on a internet forum.

And I went for a walk!

Multitasking!

[Genocider]

I'd actually like to thank Mets and Kekkonen as I enjoyed reading their posts and have to agree with a majority of what they're saying. I wouldn't mind that history lesson on the RO1 competitive scene Kekko :P

The major point of the OP from what I noticed was just to point out the flaws in the game, community, and developer. It wasn't specifically about tweaking config files or competitive gameplay, but sadly a few large posts on one area led to the entire discussion focusing on one issue while ignoring the whole point.

[Warlord]

I enjoyed Mets' exposition...but that's me.
What he has posted holds a lot of merit, and I think, holds true for a lot of games...not just RO.

On a side note...his post was well written and a pleasure to read.

My compliments Met...cheers,

[Spacehogking]

This is just what all the old ROOSTers were saying on launch... and subsequently put down for complaining at the hard-working TWI devs.
"Hell, they even gave you whiners classic mode!"
Heh. Not what we were looking for.

[El Conejo Peligroso]

Originally Posted by Sulman

God, I hate 'competitive' players. You know the kind I mean. The worst thing about modern gaming.

Miserable, tiny fraction of losers that claim to speak for the entire community. People that have never achieved a f**king thing in their entire lives spending every waking hour trying to get a competitive advantage in a computer game.

Tragic.

Go for a walk. Learn to enjoy life.

Most true quote I have ever read on this forum.

[LugNut]

OP's post was probably both the longest and best written message I've seen about the reality of gaming, gamers and RO2.

Bravo.

[ro2player]

Originally Posted by Gopblin

IMO the devs were trying to get two birds with one stone - please the community and attract the CoD kiddies, and ended up missing both.

Gopblin,

"CoD kiddies" ? You say it just because of mode Action.

You just forget beside action there is realism and classic modes. Action is maybe made for Cod buddies. But don't say RO 2 is made for Cod kiddies.

The good question is : why Tripwire created realism and classic ?
For Cod kiddies ? Certainly not.

Not only Cod kiddies play to action, also old RO 2 gamers play it for fun. (few part, ask them, few will answer you : "yes for the fun but yes"). Old RO 2 gamers try and after come back to their favorite mode. And they had fun on action. Old RO 2 gamers who quit RO 2 don't need to try action.

Not only old RO 2 gamers try realism or classic. Cod kiddies try and after come back to action or quit RO 2. And they don't had fun on realism or classic. (the main part). Same here : Cod kiddies who quit RO 2 don't need to try classic or realism.

But Action have been made for fun of Cod kiddies (i don't insult them here) as the same way Realism and Classic have been made for fun of Old RO 2 gamers. The wish of Triwpire was not to attract CoD kiddies only. Tripwire wanted to open his game to anothers players, but not necessary ONLY COD kiddies.

[GnaM]

I'm not sure that diversity in modes is always a bad thing for competitive games, but the diversity needs to be proportional to the size of the community. Compare Unreal Tournament 2003 to Unreal Tournament 2004 - all that changed from one game to the next was the addition of a few more modes and some more maps, and it went from a dud to a massive success with a lasting competitive community. It's also not just about having more or less modes, but having the right modes; which is why Onslaught succeeded where Bombing Run went entirely ignored.

In Quake 3, CPMA was pretty divisive - a lot of people hated it, but many loved it from the start, and others learned to accept it just to keep playing. Initially, CPMA was unpopular and basically just for the hardcore...eventually you HAD to play CPMA if you wanted to play at all. People could (can, and do) argue all day about whether it was good for the community or bad, but the fact remains that CPMA (as well as other major community-developed modes, like Clan Arena) were introduced pretty early in Quake 3's life, and the community lasted a LONG time.

That being said, RO2's modes are definitely a detriment. The game never had a chance to compete with COD for casual gamers' attention, yet TWI compromised the game's design to do attempt it, and failed. Then, they tried to rectify the situation by using poorly developed modes as bandaid fixes. Action mode is not arcade enough for the casual crowd, yet an insult to everyone else. Realism mode is only marginally less unrealistic than standard mode. Classic mode isn't close enough to RO1 to succeed at nostalgia, and still fails to address many other basic realism issues with the previous modes. What's worse than the fact that these modes fail to deliver what they intended, is that now the community is fractured by ever-present debate of which uniquely-idiotic version of the game is preferable.

We never needed multiple modes, we just needed the one original mode to work the way it was supposed to. If the game had shipped without a progression system and prototype weapons from the start, no one would have missed them. Now the new/casual RO players (separate from casual arcade FPS players mind you) have got used to a flawed version of the game hated by everyone else, so the community has dwindled down to just the few newbies who don't know any better, and the few longtime fans who are too desperate to stop playing.

Lastly, I'm going to go ahead and blame a good deal of stupidity in RO's hardcore community on the fact that TWI never bothered to fix some very basic and very wrong mechanics in RO1. It existed as a UT2004 mod for several years, and then as a standalone game for several more, yet through all that time and all those development cycles TWI refused to dial down its preposterously exaggerated SMG recoil, grossly exaggerated sway, cancer patient stamina, etc. in spite of the fact that many in the community presented very firm and well-supported arguments against them. After a certain point, everyone looking for a truly realistic game left for titles like Project Reality and Arma, or even gave up tactical shooters all together. In the mean time, all RO1 managed to do was breed an extremely small crowd of fiercely loyal fools who actually believed that RO1's flaws were accurate to real life, and the way the game is supposed to be.

Consequently when TWI listened to these warped fans for advice on Realism and Classic modes, of course it didn't help.

[Cwivey]

Originally Posted by GnaM

Now the new/casual RO players (separate from casual arcade FPS players mind you) have got used to a flawed version of the game hated by everyone else, so the community has dwindled down to just the few newbies who don't know any better, and the few longtime fans who are too desperate to stop playing.

Don't forget the people who actually enjoy the game and have played the previous RO games too, ya muffin.