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  #1  
Old 11-29-2013, 10:01 AM
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Default How to keep squads together

I was playing Verdun for the first time in months and I noticed they made a simple solution for keeping squads together.

Basically, the SquadLeader has a radius of command or something. When you see the SL in your map you see he has a radius in which you should be. When ever you enter or exit that radius the game warns you.

You can see the SL Blue Radius in this image. The player (SL) is the yellow arrow and his squad member is the blue dot next to it.

In RO/RS this would work by giving point bonuses when you Kill/Cap/Defend when inside the SL Radius. There could also be points given every X amount of time you are inside the Radius.

Seems simple, but in my opinions it is LOADS better than Spawning on SL.
We already have something similar for Defending the Commander. You get points for killing when close to the commander. This idea would be pretty much that, but with the addition of the Radius being visible on your map and a small warning when you enter/exit your SL radius.
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Old 11-29-2013, 10:35 AM
The Univermag's ghost The Univermag's ghost is offline
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Keeping squads together would be awesome. But it' ll require also a way better communication system between squad members and more mics for the players to improve close cooperation.
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Old 11-29-2013, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Univermag's ghost View Post
Keeping squads together would be awesome. But it' ll require also a way better communication system between squad members and more mics for the players to improve close cooperation.
I think the communication system is Fine, its getting people to use it. And I like the OPs idea.
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Old 11-29-2013, 10:44 AM
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Excellent idea!
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Old 11-29-2013, 10:50 AM
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the best communication is people talking. Reporting movement ect. I joined a LOST game for germans last night and took over commander and we won on a close gamble with arty on the last objective.

Communication is key. TALK. discuss if you must, disagree...but ****ing move forward and do what needs to be done.
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Old 11-29-2013, 11:21 AM
Neuromante Neuromante is offline
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Squad leaders should be the only ones able to 3D spot enemies and direct fire. Only squad members inside the radius would see the 3D markers and get bonus points for killing spotted enemies\suppressing enemies close to the icon.

It's beating a dead horse at this point, but squad teamplay is exceptionally hard to achieve on this game, given the lethality of combat and the fast pace at which firefights progress. A better comms system, of which 3D VOIP should be the cornerstone, would enable everybody to communicate with the closest team mates and coordinate at a basic level.
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Old 11-29-2013, 11:38 AM
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I agree, communication is the key, even When people are talking nonsence, They still seem to do better than no communication at all.
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Old 11-29-2013, 04:45 PM
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+1, and the radius can give more advantages besides points. Some examples were already given above. Other examples: shorter spawn time (and a implement a squad specific respawn queue), spawn with more ammunition,...
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Old 11-30-2013, 09:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jpz38 Hetzer View Post
I think the communication system is Fine, its getting people to use it. And I like the OPs idea.
The squad system would be good IF:
-Everybody know in what squad he is
-Everybody obey to his SL
-The squads are held together in the battlefield

So it isn' t

In my opinion the squad communication system should be:
-more clear
-less complex, so the SL can use it while fighting.

And in the game should be more easy to understood in what squad you are (default squad based selection?)

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackLabel View Post
the best communication is people talking. Reporting movement ect. I joined a LOST game for germans last night and took over commander and we won on a close gamble with arty on the last objective.

Communication is key. TALK. discuss if you must, disagree...but ****ing move forward and do what needs to be done.
And if you hadn' t the mic...?
People with no mic should be able to communicate with their teammates/squadmates nearly as effectively as the people with mic... this is the target of the communication and command system.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
And about the squad radius... okay, it's a solution but surely not the best solution. For example it should change between close combat zones and open field. This is only a very little suggestion.
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Last edited by The Univermag's ghost; 11-30-2013 at 09:25 AM.
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Old 11-30-2013, 07:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Univermag's ghost View Post
The squad system would be good IF:
-Everybody know in what squad he is
-Everybody obey to his SL
-The squads are held together in the battlefield

So it isn' t

In my opinion the squad communication system should be:
-more clear
-less complex, so the SL can use it while fighting.

And in the game should be more easy to understood in what squad you are (default squad based selection?)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------


And if you hadn' t the mic...?
People with no mic should be able to communicate with their teammates/squadmates nearly as effectively as the people with mic... this is the target of the communication and command system.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
And about the squad radius... okay, it's a solution but surely not the best solution. For example it should change between close combat zones and open field. This is only a very little suggestion.
People can know what squad They are in if They use the tatical view, everyone obeying sl? Not possible in any game, Same with holding a squad together, Ans we have sqaud chat / squad speak I believe, people chose not to use it. And a mic is kinda mandatory if you have communication in a game. Squad system is Fine, although I think They could flip the squad selection menu and the role selection menu.
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Old 12-01-2013, 05:08 PM
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Attempting any form of squad cohesion in this game is akin to herding cats really.

The overall movement speed and the fact most maps are designed around choke points with no real ability to maneuver amounts to gameplay where a frantic aggressive approach is rewarded the most and where the average lifespan of an individual is incredibly short, basically, the side who throws more players into the cap zone wins. There isn't really any room to form squads or the like.
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Old 12-02-2013, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
The overall movement speed and the fact most maps are designed around choke points with no real ability to maneuver amounts to gameplay where a frantic aggressive approach is rewarded the most and where the average lifespan of an individual is incredibly short, basically, the side who throws more players into the cap zone wins.
Very true for the majority of maps, there are some larger ones, like Bridges where you could easily effectively work as a squad. I think we all agree, that you could work as a squad on all maps if it was both easier to find your squadmates and you were rewarded for it. I don't necessarily mean rewarded literally by points or such either, just if you realized that working together rewarded you by staying alive longer, killing more of the enemy and an enhanced experience. Gameplay such as pepihoh described doesn't reward being in a squad at all. There's no point. Add the fact that it's extremely difficult to identify your squadmates on most servers and to communicate effectively with them and no one bothers.

A good way to start would be to eliminate the Role selection screen (help us modders!) and make all things squad based color coded. Bring up the Tab menu in game? All your squadmates are there easy to identify.

3D VOIP would organically create squad-like behavior, if you found yourself with 2 or 3 other teammates approaching an enemy occupied strong point, you could discuss your strategy with those around you without filling the com channels with chat.

An icon that lights up when an avatar speaks. Seriously, is it that hard to have in game?
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Old 12-02-2013, 11:55 AM
The Univermag's ghost The Univermag's ghost is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jpz38 Hetzer View Post
People can know what squad They are in if They use the tatical view, everyone obeying sl? Not possible in any game, Same with holding a squad together, Ans we have sqaud chat / squad speak I believe, people choose not to use it. And a mic is kinda mandatory if you have communication in a game. Squad system is Fine, although I think They could flip the squad selection menu and the role selection menu.
You are right, the squad system as it is is fine, but, due to the importance of teamwork in this game, we need a squad system more than fine.
More easy and quick to give and to understood them. And less complex. Maybe something like the menu that opens when you press B as SL/TL. The improvement of the squad system can make the game a lot more immersive and funny to play.

Why immersive?
Beacuse i' m not a military expert or something similar, but, i' m pretty sure that in a RL battle, the soldiers communicate with each other. In RO you don' t communicate with your team/squadmates close to you, you are only hunting/capping in your own. Think at all the threads the forum guys have opened a thread to discuss if thing was realistic or not. Well, those things are in terms of lack of realism a pebble compared to the iceberg of the absence of communication in the battlefield.

Why funny?
In this game fun depends also in immersion. Not beacuse I said that, but it's a fact that if you play RO/RS repeating in your mind "i' m just playing a game" you won't have the moments when you feel like an hero of the soviet union/germany/japan empire/U.S.
Think at all the major lacks of realism (like the on we' re talking about) and at all the glitches/bugs/bad graphic models of RO.
It's like they're saying "remember that you are just playing a game" and they ruin your gaming experience.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jpz38 Hetzer View Post
And a mic is kinda mandatory if you have communication in a game.
1 Think at the newbies and at the people who doesn't want to speak in a mic for a game beacuse otherwise they' ll feel nerd!
2 Only about 5%(I think) of the players have a mic. The other players think that the game is good also without mic, so they don' t buy it. But if the "close cooperation" gets implemented,a lot more people would have it. But the prepared tactic messages would be necessary also in this case, beacuse not everybody knows english or spanish or other most-known languages and the tactical messages have an huge advantage over the mic: they are auto-translated.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jpz38 Hetzer View Post
Everyone obeying sl? Not possible in any game, Same with holding a
squad together
And tell me... why RO shouldn't be the first? (obviously not everyone-everyone but the vast majority of them)


Sorry for my raped english.
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Last edited by The Univermag's ghost; 12-02-2013 at 11:59 AM.
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Old 12-02-2013, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LugNut View Post
Very true for the majority of maps, there are some larger ones, like Bridges where you could easily effectively work as a squad. I think we all agree, that you could work as a squad on all maps if it was both easier to find your squadmates and you were rewarded for it. I don't necessarily mean rewarded literally by points or such either, just if you realized that working together rewarded you by staying alive longer, killing more of the enemy and an enhanced experience. Gameplay such as pepihoh described doesn't reward being in a squad at all. There's no point. Add the fact that it's extremely difficult to identify your squadmates on most servers and to communicate effectively with them and no one bothers.

A good way to start would be to eliminate the Role selection screen (help us modders!) and make all things squad based color coded. Bring up the Tab menu in game? All your squadmates are there easy to identify.

3D VOIP would organically create squad-like behavior, if you found yourself with 2 or 3 other teammates approaching an enemy occupied strong point, you could discuss your strategy with those around you without filling the com channels with chat.
+1

Quote:
Originally Posted by LugNut View Post
An icon that lights up when an avatar speaks. Seriously, is it that hard to have in game?
No , seeing an icon would ruin immersion. What do you think about some face animations (TWI has already done them, but they weren' t implemented. You can see them on the old spartanovka RO2 trailer)

Red Orchestra 2 Heroes of Stalingrad - PAX 2010 Trailer - PC - YouTube
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Old 12-02-2013, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
No , seeing an icon would ruin immersion.
Sort of, but it works better than facial animations because you can see who is talking from any direction and from a farther distance. I've played with them in other games and you can set the distance they are visible, like names, so you don't see them all over the map. You could also make them subtle, I've seen just a name pop up or a semi transparent icon.

IRL if I was 50m away from you and wanted to catch your attention, I'd shout or wave or something similar. Since directional sound in RO2 is less than optimal, it could be hard to tell where someone is speaking from and we have no hand signals. Also, if you were following behind a group of squadmates, it'd be hard to tell who was speaking. From an immersion perspective I agree, it's not perfect, but the game environment is fairly limiting.
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Old 12-02-2013, 12:38 PM
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Yeah, agreed. The icon could be visually minimal, like some white 'radio' waves emitting from the characters head.

The facial animations were dropped due to performance reasons btw.
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Old 12-03-2013, 09:52 AM
The Univermag's ghost The Univermag's ghost is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LugNut View Post
Sort of, but it works better than facial animations because you can see who is talking from any direction and from a farther distance. From an immersion perspective I agree, it's not perfect, but the game environment is fairly limiting.
For facial animation i mean also most easy to see animations like the one at 0:18. Also the voice can help to understand who is talking, in RO there are more voices for one side: the one of the recruit, the on of the vetran etc... , so you can link the voices with the roles (veteran voice for SL or TL, recruit voice for the other roles).

Quote:
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The facial animations were dropped due to performance reasons btw.
I know. So, no matter if facial animation are better or worse than speaking icon, beacuse they can' t be implemented. At the moment .
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Old 12-03-2013, 05:34 PM
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I just quickly skimmed this thread, but my take on the matter is:

If you want a system that tries to keep squads together in RO2, have the SL have a radius like suggested, but only shown on the map. Then what you do is rather than have notifications pop up on your screen telling you you're too far away, just have a small icon on the screen showing where your SL is at all times so you can head towards them..... and whenever you are away from your squad, you have minor or moderate suppression effects applied to simulate that you're alone from your squad and vulnerable.

I know if I was in a war zone with bullets flying around and I was away from the guys I was trained with and had my back, I'd be a little freaked out.

But currently there is nothing like this to simulate the feeling in RO2..... Marksman, MG's, SL's, TL and AT Classes could be exempt from this depending on the map.

If the SL wants to help out his team, he can use his "Move Here" command to mark a spot on the map for some of his team to go that also has a radius so they don't gain any suppression effects for following an order and setting up a tactic away from the SL. This would be good for ambush or flank tactics where half the squad heads to the right and the other to the left.

Last edited by Cpt-Praxius; 12-03-2013 at 05:37 PM.
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