At this part I can't see how the unlock system is supposed to be a good thing.

That rare guns are passed off as std. issue would bother me as-well, problem is however that none of the really rare guns added to the game so far are passed off as std. issue in that at most 2 pr. map are going to be present.

That having been said I do feel we're seeing too many G41's around, but again, atleast it existed and was extensively used, albeit in much fewer numbers than the SVT40.

As for the Mkb42, it is perhaps unlikely that any were ever in Stalingrad, but they could've been, wich is the key factor here, a couple of thousand having been produced before the battle ended.

The above however is in complete contrast to adding equipment that actually never existed, which is the domain of the popular FPS fiction shooters like Call of Duty and Medal of Honor.

Anyway, that is how I see things, but I can understand your position as-well Grobut.

No no no no, you are assuming i'm only talking about the AVT and MKb, which i would argue is bad enough, with 2 or 3 possible on every map (per side), and each player beeing able to respawn many times over a match, thouse few slots alone will mean that quite a lot of them will be participating in every combat scenario of this game (but it's only 3! yeah, 3x how ever many times that guy respawns with it, so as many as 20 copies of thease rare weapons could easilly have been in play just in one match, if the guys carrying them just dies 20 times combined, or how about 50 times combined? that's 50 of them in one match! And that's just one match, then factor in that this will be the case for every single match, on every map, and then it paints a picture of a Stalingrad where the streets where practically awash with rare AVT's and MKb's!).


But no no no no, see that isen't the main problem, no, because here comes the MP-40/II, the Silenced Nagant revolver, the late 1944 model PPSh-41, the MG-34 with Luftwaffe issue saddle-mags, and that won't be rare, that stuff will become the bread and butter of the classes that can select them..

With the exception of the PPSh, which starts out anachronistic and actually gets more historically accurate as you progress (because all it's "upgrades" where realistic things they removed from the gun, just so they could give them back to us as "upgrades"), a lot of the default classes of this game are going to unlock, and then be forced to use "rare" items. Every MP-40 you see on the servers right now, they will ALL become MP-40/II Prototypes as people level up, and SMG wielding classes aint rare, so you're going to see a ton of thouse things come a week or two, and soon it will be all you ever see barring the occational newbie who got the game late, and the same is true of all the questionable unlockables (like bayonets on sniper rifles, pretty soon every sniper you'll see will have that!)..

That, combined with the "elite" guns, is the issue, there will be nothing rare about seeing fancy prototypes or other rare items or configurations in this game a few weeks down the road, you will be bumping into them constantly, and they will become your gun too (we cannot deselct upgrades, once you get it, you have to use it). It's not just for heroes, allmost everyone gets something silly, and durring just one 20 minute round, how many people will have died and respawned with them? So how many will have been in circulation in this small pocket of Stalingrad in this brief slice of virtual history?

That's a lot of rare prototypes and fancy gear to find in such a small pocket of Stalingrad.. and indeed in every small pocket of Stalingrad..


And in iconic battles too, you know, i don't recall having ever read that 50% of the German forces fighting over Pavlov's house or the Grain Elevator where armed with MP-40/II prototypes.. you'd think someone would have made a note of such a thing, woulden't you?

But that's going to be the norm in HoS, allmost 50% of the avalible slots are SMG wielding classes, and anyone who isen't can easilly pick one up, and sure enough, the MP-40/II is the MP-40's upgrade, so pretty soon everyone will have that thing, and once they do they can't even select the normal MP-40 anymore so they will have no choice but to use it.


And that my friend, is why i say prototypes are now beeing passed off as standard issue, because they are, more than half the German team will cary a prototype or rare weapon/attachment/configuration, and the Soviet team, whilst better in this regard, will be getting some aswell.

FBOTheLiuetenant said:

Thats a very good suggestion.

Sir Roderick, the reason they are mutually exclusive is that limiting or removing specific weapons revokes ranked server status.

Click to expand...

Yes, I know.

The question was, why is that so?

Scarf Ace said:

+1

I absolutely hate that real standard issue gear will be as rare as the totally ridiculous things like the MP40/II

Click to expand...

Same here.

If TWI aren't going to do anything about it then we're going to have to play to the gods of Modding!

Grobut said:

Literary Genius

Click to expand...

Everything this man said! +Infinity.

I don't like that unlocks are infact "lockables" either Grobut, I've said that before as-well, the inability to take off the bayonet irritates me endlessly.

Also that people will be running around with MP40/II's instead of regular MP40's is really bad as-well, that weapon should be limited to 2 pr. map just as the Mkb42(H) & AVT40. Same story with the saddle drum MG34, I just didn't think of these two before you mentioned them really, but you're completely right they are infact a big immersion breaking problem as-well.

But for some reason, when you start bringing in stuff that actually never even existed on the battlefield (6x PEM scope & 4x G41 scope), then you've crossed a much more serious line deviating from the world of reality IMHO.

The worst part is that all of this could've so easily been avoided by adding unlockable extra equipment that actually existed in reasonable numbers, such as:

MG34 = 100 round belt instead of 50 round drum
MP40 & PPSh41 = A couple extra mags in reserve
K98 & Mosin = Bayonet (detachable)
Pistols = Extra mags
C96 = 20 round mag
G41 = 1.5x ZF41 scope & bayonet (Choosable & detachable)
SVT40 = 3.5x PU scope & bayonet (Choosable & detachable)
Scoped K98k = 6x Zielsechs scope (Choosable)
Scoped Mosin = 4x PEM scope (Choosable)
Mkb42(H) = 1.5x ZF41 & Bayonet (Choosable & detachable)

Unus Offa said:

I don't like that unlocks are infact "lockables" either Grobut, I've said that before as-well, the inability to take off the bayonet irritates me endlessly.

Also that people will be running around with MP40/II's instead of regular MP40's is really bad as-well, that weapon should be limited to 2 pr. map just as the Mkb42(H) & AVT40. Same story with the saddle drum MG34, I just didn't think of these two before you mentioned them really, but you're completely right they are infact a big immersion breaking problem as-well.

But for some reason, when you start bringing in stuff that actually never even existed on the battlefield (6x PEM scope & 4x G41 scope), then you've crossed a much more serious line deviating from the world of reality IMHO.

The worst part is that all of this could've so easily been avoided by adding unlockable extra equipment that actually existed in reasonable numbers, such as:

MG34 = 100 round belt instead of 50 round drum
MP40 & PPSh41 = A couple extra mags in reserve
K98 & Mosin = Bayonet (detachable)
Pistols = Extra mags
C96 = 20 round mag
G41 = 1.5x ZF41 scope & bayonet (Choosable & detachable)
SVT40 = 3.5x PU scope & bayonet (Choosable & detachable)
Scoped K98k = 6x Zielsechs scope (Choosable)
Scoped Mosin = 4x PEM scope (Choosable)
Mkb42(H) = 1.5x ZF41 & Bayonet (Choosable & detachable)

Click to expand...

*

Unus Offa said:

MG34 = 100 round belt instead of 50 round drum
MP40 & PPSh41 = A couple extra mags in reserve
K98 & Mosin = Bayonet (detachable)
Pistols = Extra mags
C96 = 20 round mag
G41 = 1.5x ZF41 scope & bayonet (Choosable & detachable)
SVT40 = 3.5x PU scope & bayonet (Choosable & detachable)
Scoped K98k = 6x Zielsechs scope (Choosable)
Scoped Mosin = 4x PEM scope (Choosable)
Mkb42(H) = 1.5x ZF41 & Bayonet (Choosable & detachable)

Click to expand...

Not to nit-pick your suggestion, but we might want to think of something else for the weapons that only get a couple extra mags. As you level up any weapon in the game you will get extra mags, for example during the beta my Mosin bugged out on the last day and jumped from level 7 -> 37. After that I was able to carry 13 stripper clips of ammunition compared to the 7 you carry at level 1. Another aspect we have not discussed yet, is the effect stat leveling will have on the game.

It was said early on that stat progression would be subtle and not have a noticeable impact on gameplay. But from my experience in the beta, this is not the case. When I got my PPSh to level 28, I had +15% to reload speed, aiming speed, recoil reduction, sway reduction, and melee strength. When my Mosin got to level 37 all of those bonuses were slightly over 20%. IMO 20% is fair for insignificant. Granted it will take a while to get to level 37, but shouldn't the practice that comes along with that be reflected in the player, not simply given as a bonus? Any mod that is made for our desired gameplay experience should take all of these things into consideration.

K98: Removable front sight hood Seriously hate that thing on real K98's as well.
PPSh41: Drum Mag
Mauser C96: Wooden Holster Stock

Zoring said:

Mauser C96: Wooden Holster Stock

Click to expand...

Can I get a HELL YES!

Zoring said:

K98: Removable front sight hood Seriously hate that thing on real K98's as well.
PPSh41: Drum Mag
Mauser C96: Wooden Holster Stock

Click to expand...

The drum mag should ofcourse be the first thing you unlock for the PPSh41.

I like your idea with the removable front sight hood for the K98, will be much more noticable than the winter trigger guard

I just hate the idea of the semi autos getting scopes. If anything the Sniper should be the class that can upgrade to a scoped semi-auto and even then I'm not really a fan of that idea.

Perhaps there should be two sets of upgrades, silly CoD-like ACOGs and tiger camo and realistic, small upgrades. I wouldn't mind a bit of cutomisation but nothing too drastic.

Grobut said:

snip

Click to expand...

oh....my...god...

You are a genius my friend. That was exactly my worry about having an unlock system in a game trying to be authentic. Now it's too late and we're stuck with it because TWI didnt budge when we told them it was a moronic idea.

The unlock system was what pushed me over the edge and made me refund my preorder.

You said everything i was thinking. are you a wizard?

I really do hope Rising Storm and In Country will stick much more closly to authenticity, and abandon this inane unlock system.

I hope mods will get rid of it and make for more authentic play (detachable bayonets, remove the mkb42, default drum mag for ppsh, no dumba** things like silencers and mp40/II's). When this happens, i will repurchase


TWI should have turned to you for consultation...

Unus Offa said:

I don't like that unlocks are infact "lockables" either Grobut, I've said that before as-well, the inability to take off the bayonet irritates me endlessly.

Also that people will be running around with MP40/II's instead of regular MP40's is really bad as-well, that weapon should be limited to 2 pr. map just as the Mkb42(H) & AVT40. Same story with the saddle drum MG34, I just didn't think of these two before you mentioned them really, but you're completely right they are infact a big immersion breaking problem as-well.

Click to expand...

Where we differ is that i think even that has allready taken things to far.

We only get 64 players max in this game, and each of them will respawn with their chosen weapon again and again and again, so any extremely rare equipment you give to even one solitary soldier will end up beeing reprisented in this game far to often, as if every 64'th soldier where issued with it in reallity.

The day we have 1024 player servers, then we could talk about rare..

And that is precisely why i feel it's better to just not put it in there in the first place, and just stick with the standard issue (though i say that only for the Realism mode, having them in the Arcade mode doesen't bother me at all).

And the TWI of yesteryear would have agreed with me on that, it's why every single time some newbie came to this forum and asked for the FG-42, or the SKS-45 Carbine, or the Vampir night sight, or any other rare and obscure thing you can think of, they where outright dismissed for inclusion.

But this time, TWI isen't caring too much about the realism, they set out to market this game to a mainstream audience, and they apparently feel that shiny baubles are what's going to get them there, and so that's what we got.

Unus Offa said:

But for some reason, when you start bringing in stuff that actually never even existed on the battlefield (6x PEM scope & 4x G41 scope), then you've crossed a much more serious line deviating from the world of reality IMHO.

Click to expand...

Sorry, but to me that's no worse an offense than what's allready been done with features like the anachronistic PPSh, adding the MP-40/II, making Bayonets unlockables and all the rest, i regard this as just more of the same, just more stuff that detracts from the game to me.
My suspension of disbelief has allready been shattered, and this is just more of that in my eyes.

Honestly, at this point they could replace the Russian Recon plane with an F-15E Strike Eagle, or a flying pink Elephant, and i probably woulden't even bat an eyelid, just more sillyness to add to the pile as far as i'm concearned.

Unus Offa said:

The worst part is that all of this could've so easily been avoided by adding unlockable extra equipment that actually existed in reasonable numbers, such as:

MG34 = 100 round belt instead of 50 round drum
MP40 & PPSh41 = A couple extra mags in reserve
K98 & Mosin = Bayonet (detachable)
Pistols = Extra mags
C96 = 20 round mag
G41 = 1.5x ZF41 scope & bayonet (Choosable & detachable)
SVT40 = 3.5x PU scope & bayonet (Choosable & detachable)
Scoped K98k = 6x Zielsechs scope (Choosable)
Scoped Mosin = 4x PEM scope (Choosable)
Mkb42(H) = 1.5x ZF41 & Bayonet (Choosable & detachable)

Click to expand...

Now this i mostly agree with, there are so many ways they could have offered realistic and plausible side-grades and optional customization options for us to unlock and use to personalize our game, and countless have been suggested, everything from removing the sighthood from the Kar, choosing between different scopes for snipers, personalizing our weapons by unlocking different skins, painting the frontsight black to make it stand out more, tons of plausible options have been suggested, far to many to count or list.

TWI could have give people things to unlock and still preserve the realism, immersion and historical accuracy that RO used to pride itself on. But that was not the goal of this system at all, instead it was added for the sole purpose of attracting a different and more profitable target audience (which i seriously doubt it has, i don't think anyone bought RO2 because "ohh kewl, it has unlockables, then i shall buy it!").


But i do have some problems with your list there, such as it still regarding bayonets as unlockables.. no, don't agree with that at all, thouse where standard issue.

luciferintears said:

You said everything i was thinking. are you a wizard?

Click to expand...

Don't obsess over me, i am only a legend.

Can we actually choose between what unlocks are active or are we all going to be "forced" to eventually use the "ultimate" version of the gun even if its extremely specialised like a G41 with an annoying scope or an MP40 with dual magazines.

Even as an Ro1 vet, I ****ing love this game, and its progression system.

The stat progression does not have that much of an effect. It's pretty slight IMO. I was kicking *** with my rifle when I was level 0 just as well as level 30. Its not as everyone in this thread seems to think it is. New players most likely would not notice the advantages vets have simply because they are so slight. I have never met a player I couldn't kill by changing up my tactics, flanking, or simply being a better shot. RO has a learning cliff, and the upgrades are a reward for those who have mastered it. If you get killed by higher ranking players, adapt, learn, don't do the same thing over and over and then complain about how unfair it is. Honestly, The progression system is great for longevity, and I dont see it hurting gameplay.

Scarf Ace said:

Thanks to the PPSh nerf the MP40 for example is clearly the better weapon.

Click to expand...

Just no.

Even as an Ro1 vet, I ****ing love this game, and its progression system.

The stat progression does not have that much of an effect. It's pretty slight IMO. I was kicking *** with my rifle when I was level 0 just as well as level 30. Its not as everyone in this thread seems to think it is. New players most likely would not notice the advantages vets have simply because they are so slight. I have never met a player I couldn't kill by changing up my tactics, flanking, or simply being a better shot. RO has a learning cliff, and the upgrades are a reward for those who have mastered it. If you get killed by higher ranking players, adapt, learn, don't do the same thing over and over and then complain about how unfair it is. Honestly, The progression system is great for longevity, and I dont see it hurting gameplay.

Click to expand...

I agree! The stat progression is very minor, if your using that as an exscuse then you need to lift your game. As for the rare weapons being more common than the common ones, I can see peoples concerns. I was a DDE owner and i was excited to have a rare weapon before everyone else then I realise no one could use them, then when they fixed that...70% of people were. The weapon thing is shi**ing me a bit.