More and more Tank Rambling

[Extension7]

Just going to ramble about tanks for a bit (again), the system itself, what I think could use improvements or major changes upon, and what should have been added in and why I think tanking failed pretty terribly in this game.

The good stuff

There are things TWI did right in the tanking system. It's really a step up from RO1 in certain aspects, swapping engines definitely opened up more options for more tank-play elements to be added in. The detailed interiors are very nice and the general looks and models of the tanks are too. Being able to look out side ports and pull away from the hull MG to just take a look around really makes you feel like you're in a metal beast. It has a solid feel to it and I'd like it to stay that way. Also I think locking the crew inside the tank was a good idea too, because it was annoying in RO1 seeing one guy hop out of massive tank as you destroy it.

The combat

The combat itself seems very odd, the sounds of the cannons feel like I'm firing high velocity pillows at the enemy and there are no real tactics to tanking other than "Hit the frontal weak spot" or "Hit and kill the gunner so you can have more time to shoot shells at him while the AI stumble over to replace him". Also angling your tank seems to do next to nothing sometimes. The penetration values and all that seem so awkward and random it just makes tanking really boring sometimes. I have no suggestions how to improve penetrations though, I know they worked hard on the system with velocity and armor and stuff, it just seems odd is all.

Team Tanking

Useless, absolutely useless unless you are on a map like Bridges where one can be the gunner and the other person can be the driver/hull MG. But even then the system is extremely annoying with the crew respawn bugs and such. On tank only maps it's even more useless since you practically have to be sitting still to fire properly making it just useless to have a real gunner and a real driver when you can just have an extra tank. Lack of invite system and proper respawning really just breaks team tanking, which was supposed to be a benefit from solo tanking, but honestly there is 0% benefit to having a bro in your tank.

Crew members dying

This one is a bit touchy for me, since I enjoy the realism of shells killing crew members, but I think I've made up my mind now that I absolutely HATE the crew death system. It's annoying, awkward and breaks team tanking and solo tanking too. Say you finally manage to get your friend and you properly in tank together, you drive out a couple kilometers and get shot out in the distance from some solo tanker sitting around. Your friend who was the gunner dies, and boom you have no more friends in your tank. Now you (the driver) have to crawl up slowly and take is position (you probably didn't even drive your tank into any form of cover either) so you can attempt to return fire at said tank. By the time you just finished doing that your tank has exploded and you and your friend are now probably not going to spawn together in a tank for a while because of the spawning system.

So as you can imagine the game turns into who can kill whos crew members first rather than aiming for sweet spots, out flanking, angling, moving while firing, HE the tracks or even breaking the optics to gain the advantage. Which is very frustrating and IMO really hurts tanking. My proposal while unrealistic, can really remove some of the annoyances from tanking and even make team tanking a bit more fun.

I think that penetrating and killing crew members should be removed as a whole. So you can actually function with your friends while under fire. I think that they should just get "Damaged" or "Stunned" when they get hit by a tank shell. Damaged meaning that you are wounded and cannot preform simple task like switching tank positions or you can't drive and turn as quickly anymore. And Stunned meaning just shellshocked, which I'm pretty sure is in the game but is only for the driver (haven't happened to me as a gunner). The lack of constantly dying crew can make team tanking more enjoyable and less annoying. Of course, you'd still be able to die by popping your head out and getting shot that way but other than that I don't think that tank shells should kill crew members. Resupplying at an ammo dump can also heal your crew members too.

Missing features, some additions

Short list of things I (and hopefully you) would like to see in tanking, barely any explanations needed.

• Being able to lock on to the individual cupola view ports on the PZIV
• Being able to damage tank optics with either small arms or just a MG
• Ability for the commander to pull out his weapon while popping out of the hatch
• Key Board Controlled Turret ★★★★★
• Invite System for team tanking
• 1 or 2 smoke shells in standard tanks (unrealistic, but yeah)
• No more insta-switching rounds.

At least two or three of these things alone would help tanking a lot besides the bugs. These were collected from older threads and suggestions of my own aswell.

Conclusion

Tanking is really boring, broken, annoying, and all that other stuff. The only good thing going for it right now is the looks and animations. Team tanking is lacking, and the combat feels very simplistic, there isn't enough room for more tactics other than stop and shoot. This was just another one of my rambles but I hope it sparks something for TWI, because other than RS the game needs content other than weapons, and maybe fixing/editing/improving this system can help pave way for the Vehicle Modding Team too.

Spoiler!

Extra rambles

I've been playing WoT a lot lately and although the tanking isn't hyper realistic it's still fun and enjoyable, the system works fine besides all the little grinding/premium stuff. It may not be balanced but there are small details like being able to penetrate easier through the small hatches on the tanks and such. I sort of wish the RO2 tanking system was sort of like that but in first person. I think realism in tanking don't go well together.

[AtheistIII]

Being able to damage tank optics with either small arms or just a MG

I dont think anything smaller than a ATR should be able to do so, the optic openings were quite small and i think also protected by bulletproof glass.

[Extension7]

Originally Posted by AtheistIII

I dont think anything smaller than a ATR should be able to do so, the optic openings were quite small and i think also protected by bulletproof glass.

Yeah but at least being able to crack it, semi-blinding the driver or something, making him use other methods of looking around. Buttoning a tank could be useful for those moments with infantry.

Maybe make it only so it buttons when you are really close to the tank to prevent MGs from open firing on it from 200 meters away.

[barakas]

I'm not really knowledgeable, but I believe "bullet proof" glass in tanks often cracked/become hard to see through from bullet impacts and would have to be replaced.

Don't know if any of them were able to be replaced from inside tank, but if they were they could add that as a gameplay dynamic, similar to the way you change barrels of an MG if they break.

[AtheistIII]

Yeah but at least being able to crack it, semi-blinding the driver or something, making him use other methods of looking around.

Ok, i thought you were talking about the main gun optics where the small size of the hole on the outside (I would estimate it not much bigger than 1cm²) and the fact that anything behind it is set back from the surface of the tank would make it a hard task to hit from the right angle with any weapon.
Putting some scratches into the driver view ports would certainly make things intresting, we would need someone who knows a bit more about the physics that are working here.

[Cpt-Praxius]

Originally Posted by barakas

I'm not really knowledgeable, but I believe "bullet proof" glass in tanks often cracked/become hard to see through from bullet impacts and would have to be replaced.

Don't know if any of them were able to be replaced from inside tank, but if they were they could add that as a gameplay dynamic, similar to the way you change barrels of an MG if they break.

There was a discussion about this prior to RO2's release and there were photos of a damaged viewport for the driver's position where it was all cracked up by impacts, rendering it useless.

There were also others mentioning and providing sources that they could be replaced by the crew.... but I'm going from memory here and don't remember where the thread is in here.

Added:

http://forums.tripwireinteractive.co...+optics&page=2

Post #32 & 33 is where the discussion starts to take off.

Post #66 shows the basic diagram of how this protective glass all works.

Post #109 from [TW]Wilsonam:

.... Replacement of items like shattered vision blocks is at least possible.....

[MBS]

I agree whit Extremity!
tanks are boring especially since you have only two. in addition to its listed(Extremity) I want to see transporting soldiers on the back of tanks,
if the tank is too damaged Commander can be ordered to abandon tank and fight on foot, more disturbing damage on the tank, similar system to upgrade and lvl up tank like weapons.

[MBS]

Close Combat Against Russian Tanks 1942 p1 - YouTube

click on close combat against russian tanks 1942 p1-youtube.
look at all images such warfare I would like with tanks

[Kleist]

Yes Tank gameplay is very boring in RO2

about the tank optics:

WW2 PANTHER TANK VS SOVIET INFANTRY - YouTube at 2:25 Min.

you can see it here, russian heavy MG damage the optics and i have to be replaced.


I see it nearly the same way like Extremity does.

Teamtanking is absolut no fun, in RO:Ost it was. and i do it a lot with my friends, sometimes 3 friends in a tank (on Arad or the great Beresina)
It´s nearly impossible to drive a tank with a friend, it´s very hard to join it together or to have some benefits, cause you can drive a and use the gun alone... very boring for me.

In RO:Ost we lost some tankmates too (they lost their head in the open hatch), but they wait at the spawn to join us again or use another verhicle to get back in our old tank.


WASD Turret Control ist a must have for me.


The damage system is no fun, too. I hit a tank 3 times in the rear and nothing happens, that couldn´t be true. Or i aim for the tracks and the how I hit them but nothing happen. than I aim at the T-34 driver hatch and get a archievment for crack some tracks...
Or I hit a tank exactly between turret and chassy and nothing happen again...
The engine is hit but i still can drive (without engine sound or only a very quiet one)
etc. etc.


a Thread about Tanks and Friends, started by me
http://forums.tripwireinteractive.co...highlight=tank

poll about WASD Turret Control
http://forums.tripwireinteractive.co...highlight=tank

Bailling out
http://forums.tripwireinteractive.co...highlight=tank

[Extension7]

Exactly, I think the current system is so over calculated that it just doesn't work. Maybe the damage system should be a bit more simplified. Being able to successfully use tactics like HE'ing the tracks on the tank to disable it or damaging slits would help a lot.

Also I think that if they want to make team tanking a thing restoring the RO1 way of crewmembers rarely dying is a must. I'm all for realism but in the case of tanks I think it's difficult to find a balance between realism and fun tanking, so I'd much more prefer a little more simplistic system in the way of damage and such. It's simply no fun to get penetrated and die as your driving along with a friend.

@Kleist: Thanks for the video, this could help for the whole buttoning the tank idea. Since the tanks carried around at least more than 3 replacement slits, there could be an animation for replacing them then? I'd imagine that infantry would button the tank in a rather tight spot, and the tankers would replace the slits once out of danger.

[Nikita]

Since animation is so labor-intensive, I'd rather just have the animators focus on new crew animations for new vehicles rather than implement viewport glass replacement...

If there's a component that should be damaged by heavy and light explosives and the anti-tank rifles, though, it's the coaxial and hull machine guns. I know the coax can be destroyed, albeit inconsistently, but it would be fantastic if a few well-placed rounds could take out the tank's machine-gun defenses.

As far as angling goes, its utility was exaggerated in RO1. Based on the way the armor system is coded, it should still help, but only on longer-ranged maps like Gumrak.

[Trotskygrad]

the movement seems a bit borked too... has anyone else noticed tanks rubberbanding around?

[Kleist]

Originally Posted by Trotskygrad

the movement seems a bit borked too... has anyone else noticed tanks rubberbanding around?

yap

Tanks are Bugs

[Extension7]

Originally Posted by Nikita

Since animation is so labor-intensive, I'd rather just have the animators focus on new crew animations for new vehicles rather than implement viewport glass replacement...

If there's a component that should be damaged by heavy and light explosives and the anti-tank rifles, though, it's the coaxial and hull machine guns. I know the coax can be destroyed, albeit inconsistently, but it would be fantastic if a few well-placed rounds could take out the tank's machine-gun defenses.

As far as angling goes, its utility was exaggerated in RO1. Based on the way the armor system is coded, it should still help, but only on longer-ranged maps like Gumrak.

True true, animations for that would be a bit of work for little praise. Taking out the coaxial/hull MGs is a great idea though, never heard of that happen before though.

I know angling was way too powerful in RO1 but it seems to not work at all in RO2 unless you're firing from 600M+ away which lets be honest, doesn't happen at all on CA maps.

Originally Posted by Trotskygrad

the movement seems a bit borked too... has anyone else noticed tanks rubberbanding around?

Yeah, the tanks get stuck and hitch easily on the smallest of things. Sometimes if you accidentally hit something like a wall, you can't even back up. Other times it seems like you back up properly but then it snaps you back into the old stuck position. To add to that I think the tanks feel rather light and silly rather than heavy 25 ton beasts. The physics could use some improvement too, although that'd be at the bottom of my list.

[ro2player]

Originally Posted by Kleist

WASD Turret Control ist a must have for me.

Do you know fews players starting in the same opinion that you and finishing by adopt finally (or to be adopted by ) the mouse control for tank ?

[Extension7]

Originally Posted by ro2player

Do you know fews players starting in the same opinion that you and finishing by adopt finally (or to be adopted by ) the mouse control for tank ?

Even though some have, it'd still be nice to have keyboard turrets.