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Smoke effects need some changes.

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#21
Benjamin said:
I don't see why the whole team should suffer because of one noob's actions though.
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How about the noob that rages the FP? Team game. Team consequences.

Benjamin said:
Please re-read my original post in this thread, specifically the part where I talk about the smoke trail being too much. I don't care so much about the smoke caused from the explosions. :)
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Still supposed to be a balance. The demo, IMO, should play the game firing as little as possible and playing like a billiards player. See a group of crawlers appear at the far end? Pop them. Same thing with clots. Demo should be firing his shots at side walls, ceilings, and far walls. Mix in the occasionally FP RIGHT THERE and the quick demo dump
 
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#22
Amber Glass said:
once again, this isn't an issue with the smoke, its an issue with not playing the class correctly, a good demo will retain visibility for the rest of his team for the majority of the game, obviously there are gonna be some instances where one cannot help but obscure the view, but this shouldn't be happening a majority of the time.
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That's right.
 
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#23
Amber Glass said:
once again, this isn't an issue with the smoke, its an issue with not playing the class correctly, a good demo will retain visibility for the rest of his team for the majority of the game, obviously there are gonna be some instances where one cannot help but obscure the view, but this shouldn't be happening a majority of the time.
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There is alot of smoke with any Demo weapon at the moment and it can't be avoided. Pray tell how you retain visibility, aside from holding back and not actually shooting? I shoot at groups of enemies exclusively until I get a law, then I focus on stunning Scrakes/Fleshpounds aswell. You can't always dictate range, nor can you avoid blinding people who need to be close to enemies to deal damage (i.e Berserkers/Support Specialists). Demo isn't meant to be the last word in a fight either... they are AOE (small area too I will add, unless using the LAW) but by no means over powered. Unless you're on a low difficulty, you aren't going to kill everything in a single shot.

I'm not asking for smoke to be removed, nor am I saying that I want to spam grenades everywhere. Believe it or not, I'm also not a bad player. However, I think smoke could do with lingering for a shorter amount of time or have it's opacity reduced a little. I try to avoid blinding the team but it's often not possible not to reduce visibility unless you are on a wide open map. I'm not just talking about covering the team in a cloud of smoke but covering the enemies in a cloud of smoke too so that no one can see what they are shooting at. As previously mentioned, just because something hits a group of enemies and goes boom, doesn't mean everything in that vacinity is dead. The only option for the rest of the team is to then wait for the smoke to clear so that they can shoot again and hope that nothing charges into close range from it.
 
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#24
most of the time when i'm playing demo, i'm also doubling as a medic of sorts. one of my favorite loadouts is the m32+m79+medicgun. i spend my explosives very frugally, so i find that i can avoid buying pipes in most situations, and save my grenades for the moments when the team is about to be overrun. most of the time i am healing and killing trash with the mp5, m79, and 9mm. i only ever break out the m32 for big mobs or FPs. so yes, i suppose i retain visibility by not shooting unless i need to, but having the most kills doesn't mean much to me. if i wanted to top the scoreboards id play a different class, though thats not to say that never happens as demo.
 
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#25
Amber Glass said:
most of the time when i'm playing demo, i'm also doubling as a medic of sorts. one of my favorite loadouts is the m32+m79+medicgun. i spend my explosives very frugally, so i find that i can avoid buying pipes in most situations, and save my grenades for the moments when the team is about to be overrun. most of the time i am healing and killing trash with the mp5, m79, and 9mm. i only ever break out the m32 for big mobs or FPs. so yes, i suppose i retain visibility by not shooting unless i need to, but having the most kills doesn't mean much to me. if i wanted to top the scoreboards id play a different class, though thats not to say that never happens as demo.
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I don't care about score either. Usually I find that Commandos and Sharp Shooters are at the top and that's fine with me. Lately there seems to be alot of guys who go out of their way to make sure they are at the top, at the cost of team play... if I'm playing with my friends we tend to kick those people because they end up being liabilities.

I have to say though, I'd never use an M32 on FPs unless it is an emergency, for instance if we didn't have a sharp shooter or support specialist on board. What difficulty are you playing on? That's one of the times that you MUST spam that gun to kill, unless it's on a low difficulty? I completely ignore big zeds until I have a LAW, unless I'm the only one able to dent their health. And avoiding purchasing pipebombs? That's the hallmark of Demo! Best way to kill the Patriach bar-none, and great for taking out Fleshpounds if you know their route on the current map. The new M4 grenade launcher might be good for killing trash if that's your thing, probably better than the medic gun, but I'm not a fan of it. If you double as a medic that's all well and good but I'd prefer to focus on weapons actually for the class.

But I digress... obviously we have different play styles and different opinions on smoke. If indeed the smoke is dense and opaque for balance purposes, Tripwire will no doubt ignore this thread. I however, don't think that balance factors into it personally. I think it's just a game effect that they went a bit OTT on.

@ nutterbutter: Comparing a Demo who blinds the team with smoke to a noob that rages the FP is not a legitimate comparison. A Demo needs to kill stuff and is doing nothing wrong by firing grenades. As I already said, it's not always possible to get off clean, distant shots, and far worse not to do anything at all. Someone raging a Fleshpound as a class that can't handle the consequences is just someone who doesn't know the game well or just a terrible player. No comparison at all.
 
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#29
Destyre said:
Sorry can't get past the fact that he has Modern Warfare 3 videos. I'm not actually asking for advice, I know how to play Demo. I was just making a point that these people seem to think that not firing grenades, ergo not making smoke is how a demo is played.
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This is just plain silly. Are you associating playing MW3 with KF gamesense? Take a look at the guy's KF videos - a majority of them are in bioticslab (small hallways) and almost always with a demoman present. If a demoman can topscore on bioticslab and the team doesn't wipe, then clearly the smoke wasn't a problem.

Sidenote: MW3 has tons more skill than KF. In the former, opponents shoot back, the pace is faster, a better reaction time is required, etc. In KF, slow-moving zeds walk in your general direction, often lining up. The generic "COD takes no skill" response is pretty baseless I think.

Sidenote #2: this is just a prediction, but I'm assuming that because you were so quick to denounce MW3, you're going to call me a fanboy and say I'm biased. Well, here's some additional info: I have less than 100 hours of MW3, about 1,000 hours in KF, and 2,500 hours in TF2. (proof)
 
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#32
Destyre said:
I don't care about score either. Usually I find that Commandos and Sharp Shooters are at the top and that's fine with me. Lately there seems to be alot of guys who go out of their way to make sure they are at the top, at the cost of team play... if I'm playing with my friends we tend to kick those people because they end up being liabilities.

I have to say though, I'd never use an M32 on FPs unless it is an emergency, for instance if we didn't have a sharp shooter or support specialist on board. What difficulty are you playing on? That's one of the times that you MUST spam that gun to kill, unless it's on a low difficulty? I completely ignore big zeds until I have a LAW, unless I'm the only one able to dent their health. And avoiding purchasing pipebombs? That's the hallmark of Demo! Best way to kill the Patriach bar-none, and great for taking out Fleshpounds if you know their route on the current map. The new M4 grenade launcher might be good for killing trash if that's your thing, probably better than the medic gun, but I'm not a fan of it. If you double as a medic that's all well and good but I'd prefer to focus on weapons actually for the class.

But I digress... obviously we have different play styles and different opinions on smoke. If indeed the smoke is dense and opaque for balance purposes, Tripwire will no doubt ignore this thread. I however, don't think that balance factors into it personally. I think it's just a game effect that they went a bit OTT on.

@ nutterbutter: Comparing a Demo who blinds the team with smoke to a noob that rages the FP is not a legitimate comparison. A Demo needs to kill stuff and is doing nothing wrong by firing grenades. As I already said, it's not always possible to get off clean, distant shots, and far worse not to do anything at all. Someone raging a Fleshpound as a class that can't handle the consequences is just someone who doesn't know the game well or just a terrible player. No comparison at all.
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i will purchase pipes for patty rounds sometimes, but the majority of times i will go without pipes, because most of the time my team is mobile, or does not require pipes to take out large mobs. i normally play on suicidal or hard, haven't delved into HoE too much, though i have played a few games. Even at HoE difficulty though, stack 2 hand nades and fire a m32 round off at an FP to start his raging motion, then finish him off with a couple more hand nades and another m32 round, or alternatively you can just spam the rest of the m32 to kill him. clean FP kill without worrying about him not setting off the pipe, and minimum smoke coverage since it is in one spot. i also usually let the SS take care of the FP, but a lot of games we do not have a competent sharp, or they are focusing on scrakes. the only times i use the law are for patty rounds, there are just not enough instances in where i need that much firepower, and then i reaaally wouldn't be doing much during the game :p
 
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#33
sph34r said:
Sidenote: MW3 has tons more skill than KF. In the former, opponents shoot back, the pace is faster, a better reaction time is required, etc. In KF, slow-moving zeds walk in your general direction, often lining up. The generic "COD takes no skill" response is pretty baseless I think.
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I find this funny since I didn't say that COD requires no skill. The reason I hate COD is because everyone harps on about it so much and to me it's just a below par FPS game that is overhyped by a bunch of kids who buy what they are told to buy on steam. I actually play Red Orchestra 2 which requires much more skill than MW3, however that is irrelevant information as Killing Floor is nothing like either game; the only similarities between them is that you carry guns and are in first person mode.

sph34r said:
Sidenote #2: this is just a prediction, but I'm assuming that because you were so quick to denounce MW3, you're going to call me a fanboy and say I'm biased. Well, here's some additional info: I have less than 100 hours of MW3, about 1,000 hours in KF, and 2,500 hours in TF2. (proof)
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Actually I couldn't care less what you play. We're talking an aspect about Killing Floor not anything else. I made an offhand comment which suggested that I dislike MW3 and it's clear that that is what you're really butthurt about.

Your comment about CS was also way off. Stop comparing McDonalds to Steak.

@Amber: Suicidal I would NEVER use an M32 on a FP. Not unless I really really had to. That's not what the gun is for at all. On suicidal I would really hope that the SS knew what they were doing! The LAW, however, is fine against FPs. On a related note per your comment about the LAW, there are many uses for it aside from shooting down FPs and the Patriach. For a start it has a huge AOE when compared to the M79 and M32. A direct hit in a group of mobs, including anything up to husk size will be instantly vapourised. It's just getting the groups large enough to warrant the need for a missle that possesses a problem; and then I find plenty of opportunity for that on Hard or suicidal, I usually fire fairly frequently during the round (for a LAW anyway) and have ammo to spare at the end (but not much). I still think that holding back and not shooting just because of the smoke is really silly.
 
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#35
IMO a mob too large to be taken out with an M32 that is close to the group should be handled by supports. Husks should be left to the SS anyway, unless one spawned in your face. most of the time that i take out the FP is when the SS is busy dealing with scrakes, or if there isn't one present. my xbow scope often glitches, so i do not often play sharp. i am surprised you think the M32 is a bad weapon for taking on FPs on suicidal, as i do it quite often when not kiting :p
 
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#37
Destyre said:
I have to say though, I'd never use an M32 on FPs unless it is an emergency, for instance if we didn't have a sharp shooter or support specialist on board. What difficulty are you playing on? That's one of the times that you MUST spam that gun to kill, unless it's on a low difficulty?
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You have it reversed. Sharpshooter becomes less (SUPER)effective against Fleshies on Suicidal and HoE, while Demo is always effective. And here's why:

Fleshpounds have a natural resistance against crossbow bolts, but gain an extra 30% (I think) resistance to them and Suicidal and HoE. In a 6man Hard game, a level 6 crossbow will kill an FP in two headshots. In 6man HoE, it takes four bolts. (I'm assuming 3 for Suicidal, but I haven't tested it). On 6man HoE, I think it takes 7 LAR shots or 12 M14 shots to kill FP. I'm not sure on those numbers, so take them with a grain of salt).

On the opposite end, Fleshies take regular 100% damage from LAW rockets, double damage from pipes and hand grenades, and +25% from grenade launchers. This weakness does not change according to difficulty. When you add in the chest/head-shot bonus for grenades and rockets, plus the Demo's explosives buff, a level 6 M32 will absolutely wreck FPs. Hell, even off perk you can do it pretty easily, if you toss in some hand nades in between your first two shots.

So yah. I think that's what sphear wanted to say.



As for the actual topic, I wouldn't mind if the trails left by launched grenades was taken out, but I do think the smoke cloud after impact needs to stay for balance.
 
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#38
ChairmanMurder[Forge] said:
plus the Demo's explosives buff, a level 6 M32 will absolutely wreck FPs. Hell, even off perk you can do it pretty easily, if you toss in some hand nades in between your first two shots.

So yah. I think that's what sphear wanted to say.
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Give it a try, trust me it's not that effective. I know, I've tried. Sure you can help the team take fleshpounds down with an M32 but it's not so good if you are trying to take it down alone. Also, Scrakes have explosion resistance, so the door swings both ways with that. Sharpshooters and berserkers should focus on Scrakes, while the Support specialists take on the FPs with Demo support. One tactic I found that works really well is to stun the Fleshpounds with the law, then have your support specialist take him down. The M32 just makes him angry and draws aggro though. Not to mention the amount of smoke, which this thread is actually about! If the Support specialist opens up on FP, yeah then you can help take him down. If you are lucky enough to get the FP at a distance, you could nuke him somewhat. Still wouldnt open up on him without other classes shooting too.

Anyway we're getting off of topic here. Never had a problem with trails, not sure why some people do? The explosions themselves obscure way more.
 
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#40
Amber Glass said:
IMO a mob too large to be taken out with an M32 that is close to the group should be handled by supports. Husks should be left to the SS anyway, unless one spawned in your face. most of the time that i take out the FP is when the SS is busy dealing with scrakes, or if there isn't one present. my xbow scope often glitches, so i do not often play sharp. i am surprised you think the M32 is a bad weapon for taking on FPs on suicidal, as i do it quite often when not kiting :p
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Haven't noticed the Crossbow sights being bugged personally, I do fine with it. I think it's more a case of hitboxes being bugged.

As for M32 vs FP, you can unload on it sure, but that creates the whole problem of blinding the team again. It's not a very effecient way of taking on a FP is all I'm saying, unless the team needs extra firepower to take it down.

You should really try the LAW if you want an Anti-Fleshpound gun though :p Stuns them too if you get a direct hit.
 
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