Ok treading on a sensitive issue here... The Medic & The Zerker.

troll imo

xebo said:

troll imo

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Saying Undedd Jester is a troll is like, saying....

PAH.

This is an undescribable offence that must be dealt with at once!

xebo said:

troll imo

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I don't get what trolling is going on here.

He laid out his points very well, and this is a calm and insightful discussion on the relative roles of medic and berserker. Obviously I am missing something here, because, last time I checked, the most trollish thing in here was a short message with 2 words...."troll imo" :troll:. No seriously, what here is trollish?

@smiff*

xebo said:

@smiff*

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I wouldn't really call that trolling, more of just having an opinion you consider absurd; however, he is entitled to have such an opinion, and is not the only one. Other people have made such a case before, and they validly believe it. I'm pretty sure SMIFF is legitamately voicing his opinion here, and not trying to bait or anger anyone.

xebo said:

troll imo

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Your opinion is wrong.

rightly or wrongly, general opinion on HoE servers with teams that camp seems to be that the medic is a liability, as his presence compromises the team's firepower (particularly in light of non perked adjustments to his typical back-up weapons)

But I find a medic more useful to block FPs and in particular SCs that are charging the group, despite the lack of damage bonus.
TBh berzerkers only seem more handy in certain obvious maps, or in early waves to save ammo.
Always seemed a bit weird that in this game the medic is pretty much the hardest, but i guess you have to give him abilities to make him attractive to play.

Undedd Jester said:

I had to like... made me feel all warm and fuzzy inside

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The other people like to call it the feeling of being loved.

Sadly, I feel no such thing, for I am the support specialist. Whoever or whatever it may be, my instinct makes sure that on meeting it, it meets my Benelli M3 Pump-Action twelve-gauge shotgun. No-one shall see or touch my face for it is concealed by my arc welding mask, a sign of, and essential piece of equipment that I use to perform and signify my duty and my tasks, both of which remain dear to me until the day I finally fall.

My stance on berserkers: http://imgur.com/aiQKF?full

SMIFF said:

Where did this nonsense about the Berserker having the highest skill ceiling come from? He simply doesn't.

Playing Zerker is easy.
It's comprised of kiting until the hordes are safe to engage, and taking advantage of the FP's flawed rage, which theoretically any perk can do with the right weapon, it's just easier for the Zerk and his unperked LAR because he's faster and has the capacity to carry 2 perked weapons along with the LAR, that combined with his damage and clot grab resistance gives him too much of an edge.

In situations that would normally wipe a team, the Zerker can just run away and commence the kiting sequence, once he gets passed the first stage of having the current 32 Zeds still being scattered around, and gets them to trail behind him, he's home free, as made evident in a few of Scary_Ghost's videos.

The Zerker is overpowered right now, not as gamebreakingly overpowered as the SS once was, but enough to have a negative effect on gameplay.

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Well I should've said he takes the longest to learn how to play somewhat effectively, since kf really isn't based on fps skills as much as it's based on proper planning and understanding the game mechanics. It just takes more time to learn how to stun, kite fp's, juggle enemies, escape out of jams, etc compared to other perks.

I also wasn't trying to argue that zerker is perfectly balanced. He is slightly overpowered and I think he was perfect before the update. I just don't see this as too much of a big deal and gamebreaking. Fact of the matter is you can never get the balance perfect. You balance zerker and there will be a new strongest perk. You balance that and there will be another strongest perk, etc. The line needs to be drawn somewhere. If zerker was completely op like pre-patch sharpie that's a different story, but being a little stronger isn't that big of a deal imo.

This is just my opinion, though!

I see more lvl 6 medics rambo-ing than Zekers do. And lvl 6 medics have more succes at it.

There is something wrong with the medic class. Its able to replace the zerker class and kite 10 waves in solo and with 6 players.

I hate medics who only zerker-kite and never heal their teammates.

noupperlobeman said:

These rambos are perfectly content to rambo around the map picking off enemies by twos and threes, while the rest of us are left to be destroyed. Once the rest of the team is dead they take satisfaction in extending their e-peen by making us watch while they solo 200 zeds. I think berserker should be nerfed just to get rid of these a-holes.

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That almost perfectly describes pre-patch Medics and Sharpshooters. The thing is...most Berserkers are legitimately GOOD and the fact is that most of 'em would've survived anyway. And honestly, seeing Berserkers everywhere is a nice change from pre-patch, where you NEVER saw them because they required almost perfect execution constantly to play as. That extra speed...I honestly hardly notice but it's nice. The extra damage resistance, however, is the only way to have anything resembling fun on the harder levels as Berserker. It was playable before and you could do "Fine" but it always felt like banging your head on a wall. Like you could be better as another perk almost in almost every situation especially with medic, because as someone said:

scary ghost said:

I don't see how katana and xbow are weak in the hands of a medic. Katana 1 hit kills crawlers, clots, and stalkers and 1 hit decapitates gorefasts and bloats. Xbow 1 hit kills everything up to a scrake. Sure katana has a 10% slower swing speed but it's perfectly usable for personal defense.

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Medics use Crossbows just as well, don't do hugely less damage with the Katana, run at full speed no matter what, and can heal 50% of their HP every few seconds. If you nerf Berserker, we get 20% damage, which is a joke compared to Medic armor, run speed that only applies with melee weapons instead of all the time, and our only damage boost is with melee weapons that, with a few exceptions, are 1-hit kills anyway!

The boosts added to Berserker make it fun to play and worthwhile to be. Otherwise, the X-Bow/Katana Medics would be better than a Berserker in almost every way again. The melee weapon damage bonuses and the minor damage resistance aren't enough by themselves to make the Berserker worth your time. Thus the buff.

Fat Cat said:

Medic: Need's some slight damage boost for the Mp7M. And a reload bonus (30%?), because half the time when you are reloading one of your team mates is dying or dead because of the reload.

Zerker: Leave him as it is. The class is a rambo class. Since if u try to work with a team your ability to kill is dwarfed laregly because your team mates are most likely using guns and will take most of your kills.

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I agree with this. If you're with your team 100% of the time, you're not gonna be doing much besides using your ranged weapons in an inferior capacity and stunning the occasional Scrake because otherwise you're just wasting your time, blocking your allies' shots, or worse, getting killed. It's boring and doesn't contribute much until people start dying...in which case you end up as the only survivor and people get mad at you for having to solo 100+ zeds.

Right now, the Zerker is a perfect flank defender and "hold the line" teammate. You have enough damage resistance to be able to solo a flanking approach by yourself or with a single teammate. And you have the speed to be able to close with an approaching Scrake or two and stun them before they maim your teammates.



TL;DR, if they buff medic, that's fine with me. But if they nerf Berserker, everyone is gonna go back to the X-Bow/Katana medic because it's a more survivable class.

@Jester
And this goes way back to what I was saying in beta. Any skillled zerker running katana, axe, and lar pre balance patch only had to make minimal changes to his play style after the balance patch. I made that very clear during wave 1 with videos of my play style pre beta and during the beta, which were virtually identical. The xbow resistances mean absolutely nothing to a zerker running that load out as he would axe the fp anyways. These buffs just make it easier to pull off. Also, Hell on Earth is equivalent to the old suicidal except:

• Increased xbow resistance for fp and scrake
• FP has higher head hp scaling per player, x0.3 vs x0.25
• Scrakes can only flinch one time

None of these changes majorly affect zerkers who axed scrakes and fleshpounds. It's not surprising though as the changes were mostly geared towards those running katana/xbow. Combined with the back stab fix, the only difference in play style now vs. pre balance with the same load out is:

• Katana (or axe) alt fire to kill sirens and husks instead of primary
• Axe alt fire to kill fp instead of primary

It's also kind of funny how when I first mentioned meleeing FP before the beta in this thread, responses were "oh it'll take so long" or "that was only 2 man suicidal, try it on 6 man" and so on. Now every zerker is doing it and are quite successful at it.

Undedd Jester said:

Its a fair point dude, looks like you hit the nail right on the head.

I have to admit I didn't touch the Berserker (Or the Demo) during the Beta since they weren't my area of expertise, I mainly ensured the Medic was sufficiently reduced in his effectiveness with the Xbow and Katana (which the headshot resistances and no melee stun do a good job of nerfing the Rambo Medic). I also made sure that the Firebug, Commando and Support Specialist remained in line with the other perks, and the Sharpshooter's role was clearly defined.

As I say, I was a little reserved on the buffs the Berserker was getting, but I stayed out of it. I dunno, since you've got a much better head for a Zerker, what would you recommend?

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seconded. I mainly tested out the definition of the Medic and the roles of the commando, support, firebug, and medic in teamplay. And, as there were always those testing out the XBow, I never tried demo as to preserve visibility.

I did try out the zerker with scary a couple times, but I never had the timing, aim, and awareness to actually make it by alone; I would almost always die against FPs and scrakes, and was only moderatley good at kiting regularly.

All in all, I admit that I was totally oblivious of any perks having an advantage over the others

2011: Year of the Berserker?

Nerfing the speed down to 25% would be fine with me. I barely notice a difference between 25% and 30%, honestly.

But mark my words: if you nerf Berserker much from the fun perk it is now, it's gonna fall back into "No one plays it because even though it's okay, you could do way better/have more fun as another perk" territory that it was before, where all the other classes can easily kill at range while you're near useless until up close.

Fact is, whatever class ends up being able to solo 100+ zeds after the others are dead is gonna get a similar amount of hate, even if they can only do so by playing exceptionally well. It starts a slippery slope of nerfing everything until all the classes feel stupid weak and it's impossible for anyone to solo anything when the team dies...or buffing everything until everyone starts whining that it's "Too easy"