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I love the Eastern Front

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Could this thread be the heir of ":IS2: is the greatest tank of WWII" ?
I think it could...




And yep OP, you are correct, the fight on the West front and in North Africa, Pacific doesn't even compare to the brutality that was the Eastern Front, especialy Stalingrad as we all know.
Everytime there is a documentary abou the Eastern Front playing on National Geographic or the Discovery Channel I just stop and watch it, and I have to thank TripWire for making me do this, since I learned a LOT more about WWII, knowing most of the history so far.
 
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Yes it's really irritating that there is STILL very little mention of the Eastern front in history classes in high school. Still leftover BS from the cold war.

At the university level it's a different story but there is still too little focus on it...

there is very little mention of the world in general in high school history classes. Just look at the courses:
1st freshman course is basically an attempt to cover all of world history...and manages to basically say that various things simply existed, with little actual coverage.

2nd Junior Course is basically a horrenously in depth coverage of national history. Basically teaches you about small legislation in the 1800s while totally ignoring the greater world and making it all horribly out of context

3rd senior class...doesn't teach history. It teaches the systems in which politics and history is carried out, while not actually containing substance

I just felt this was worth being thrown into the open:eek:
 
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I think this ost/west argument has been a bit too stereotyped and simplyfied , the highest death ratio in the whole of WWII was in the break out from the normandy landing's , Monte Casino rates up there with the slaughter that went on in all front's.
There was an interesting meeting shortly after the end of the war , where at a party with all the victor's present general zukov , re-told his reasoning behind sending thousands to there deaths too run over mine fields ,too a lightly defended area , knowing if he had done a frontal assualt on where the german forces had been expecting him he would have lost many more times the men , the flanking move aloud him many more choices to move the germans into a postion where he had the upper hand.

Tuff choice no doubt....but a wrong one ?

things get messy and no view of the WWII is simple and clear cut along ost/west....pacific , world fronts , and there's more than likely a wealth of more history too be written and understood.
 
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I think this ost/west argument has been a bit too stereotyped and simplyfied , the highest death ratio in the whole of WWII was in the break out from the normandy landing's....

i always thought the breakout from normandy was a relativley painless affair - with british and canadian forces tied down facing large concentrations of german forces, the US contigent were able to make progress meeting little stiff opposition.
Are you talking about operation cobra? Sorry i don't know what you mean by highest death ratio - i'm not an expert on the western european front.
 
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Enjoy it before the trolls show up. Just saying.
:IS2:

Too late... its waking up...

Its gonna make me post it... Must... Resist...

Spoiler!


Damn!
 
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Pacific doesn't even compare to the brutality that was the Eastern Front, especialy Stalingrad as we all know.

*COUGH*Okinawa*COUGH*

The same place as the USA if that country hadn't begun this program: As a province in the 3rd Reich?

Lend Lease didn't stop after the US declared war. Matter of fact, most of the British Merlin engines were produced under license in the United States.

I just finished reading an article about Bill Knudsen, a Danish immigrant, that later became the head of General Motors and was later asked by FDR to run war effort. The article is called The Speed-up King: In 1940, a Danish machinist helped jump-start America's transformation from carmaker to weapons giant in the January/February edition of World War II magazine.
 
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Obviously soviet soldiers individually were not all evil people with no morality, but they fought for a leader and a system which was evil and had little to no morality....... so the question remains, were they inculpable?

well, they fought for their lives, for their nation (nation =/= goverment), their families, and for their livelihood. Often times, they knew that they or their loved ones would be killed if they didn't fight, so they decided to fight for all they loved. Many also had seen the devastation caused by the war, thanks to soviet propaganda, and knew that they had to fight or they would have nothing to return to. In fact, if they were Belorussian, this was doubly so, due to the fact that the advancing German army systematically executed large numbers of the 'White Russians' (I don't know if this sentence is necessarily true, but I've heard it, so I felt I might as well throw it in as Ive heard nothing to contradict it)

So blaming Soviet soldiers is totally uncalled for. They had been beaten over the head with propaganda as well at the time, but even then they were motivated often by far less ideological reasons.
 
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It seems a little wierd that the German's losses were proportioally so low. Of course it probably has something to do with the Soviet strategy of throwing men at the enemy. It's sad to think that so many died because their "commanders" were such idiots. It's very similar to WWI, well I suppose its the same in all wars.:(

First of all, add in the client states, puppets and allies of Germany on the eastern front and the casualty rate isn't THAT extremely different anymore. In addition you have to remember that the Soviets had extreme losses in the opening months of Barbarossa. Look up the Minsk encirclement as an example. It wasn't so much down to Soviet small unit tactics or human wave attacks, it was more to operational losses.

Also, most casualty comparisions you see have POW's who died in captivity included. Now we all know the Germans didn't threat captured Soviets very well. If you ONLY go with KIA/MIA's without POW's then the difference really isn't that high anymore. Numbers taken from Wikifail since I'm too lazy to go with anything else atm.

Total Axis KIA/MIA Eastern Front:
4,428,000+

Total Soviet KIA/MIA Eastern Front:
6,927,204+ (you have to add Partisans though)

In addition, since Germany was on the offensive during most major breakthroughs involving extreme casualties for both sides you can expect that the ration of KIA-WIA will be higher for the Soviets than the Germans. So the total wounded+dead toll would be nearly equal.

Remember, Operational losses will always be far more severe for the defender than for the attacker. Think for instance of Normandy. While the Germans often had the tactical advantage due to favourable defensive terrain (bocage) and had dug in positions and pre-registered artillery points, they were on an operational disadvantage. Generally if an attacker sustains a loss-rate of 30% for a company, Battalion or Division they'll usually be able to pull it back. The defender can't really do this and once the attacker breaks through the losses in men and material will always be far higher for the defender than for the attacker. Think of all the rear echelon non-fighting units suddenly finding themselves under fire and overrun by enemy tanks. THIS is where the real losses in any operation are and which is why the defender has nearly always far more severe losses when the attacker achieves a decisive breakthrough.
 
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Still leftover BS from the cold war.

So the Soviet Union's never-ending attempts to destroy the democratic, free-thinking, pluralistic way of life that you have so obviously enjoyed up to this point has been relegated to leftover BS. Nice. Very well then, carry on. I'll just carry the mind altering memory of the Wall falling to my grave while you.......don't.
 
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So the Soviet Union's never-ending attempts to destroy the democratic, free-thinking, pluralistic way of life that you have so obviously enjoyed up to this point has been relegated to leftover BS. Nice. Very well then, carry on. I'll just carry the mind altering memory of the Wall falling to my grave while you.......don't.

It's a good thing we don't live in a world where there exists shades of grey, ohh god that would be horrible! :eek:
Good thing it's all conveniantly black and white, so we don't have to think.
 
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