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another direction

another direction

  • yes please

    Votes: 24 75.0%
  • no thanks

    Votes: 8 25.0%

  • Total voters
    32
  • Poll closed .
all I'm hearing from you atm, nutter, is that it is all my fault. why dont you blame 9/11 on me while your at it.

atleast i can admit my mistakes, and i did, after that i even tried to "clarify" some things and explaining them more (in bright yellow with big fonts) which you apparently though was "hostile".

but really, you can either keep *****ing to me here and waste both my and your own time or do something creative and give me a list of raw opinions (that i haven't already dealt with) and move on.
 
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@blackfire
He did respond to you and when you were dismissive about his complaints he reiterated his issues and told you, and rightly so, that you aren't listening to his complaints. With any visual idea, it makes sense to criticize the style, regardless of the time and tools involved, and he was right about white space and usability.

Also:
nutterbutter said:
Take things less personal and try to understand that when someone says "Your design is bad" they are not criticizing you personally.
 
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I have to say, in the end; it just looks like nutterbutter has just ignored that fact that it was a concept piece and is just trying to defend his horrible viewpoint for the sake of defending it. I mean,

Your "CONCEPTS" is bad. Very bad. Cramped sections. Thick borders. Weird font. Obvious resolution dependance.
The fact that you have targetted these attributes, despite the fact a concept is in no way finalised AND blackfire said it was just a quick creation, just reeks of ignorance. Fonts and borders can be changed and the UI could be made for the smallest KF resolution and therefore, scale up with any of the bigger sizes; simple.

Wow dude. Wow. I think that is the fastest someone has gone from "Hey, look at my work." to "You're stooopid." No reason to get that defensive.
And I think blackfire can get as defensive as he feels like; it's not your job to tell him not to. He should be dealing with any repercussions from the people he's defending against; not you. Go flamebait elsewhere.

And I like this concept; it has everything and it has fit it all onto the one screen just fine.
 
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The fact that you have targetted these attributes, despite the fact a concept is in no way finalised, just reeks of ignorance. Fonts and borders can be changed and the UI could be made for the smallest KF resolution and therefore, scale up with any of the bigger sizes; simple.

I see you conveniently left out the rest of the post "What happens when another weapon is added to one of the filled sections? What happens when a support loads up on more weapons than you can show? Why are some of the items red? Why are you wasting valuable real esatte with an "in-picture" of the team in the trader area?"

The concept is bad. How you and blackfire don't understand that is beyond me. There is a difference between "concept" and "implementation." A perfect example is the "Destroyer" specimen. http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=46860 I haven't really looked at the specimen's stats, but I can tell you that is an absolutely terrible picture. /However/, the picture is there just thrown together quickly as a concept. And that is just fine. He just grabbed the quickest pictures of the things he needed and threw them together. Nothing wrong with that.

The concept of blackfire's trader window is bad. I've gone over why I think it is bad. Rather than reply to those points (or any other criticisms), blackfire immediately goes into defensive mode and lashes out. Do you think that if some graphic artist spent a week making it /look/ better it would /function/ better? It wouldn't because the are design problems that go beyond the thick red borders. How exactly is this difficult to understand?

And even if you don't agree with me, so what? Just ignore me or say "I think you're wrong." and leave it at that. People disagree all of the time. Rhenna did that. She thinks there should be a trader window. I don't.

Oh, and if you think that "UI could be made for the smallest KF resolution and therefore, scale up with any of the bigger sizes; simple." works, then you haven't done any design work.

One more thing. How exactly do you think something goes from concept to finalized? People criticizing the work and the work being refined. Duh.

And I think blackfire can get as defensive as he feels like; it's not your job to tell him not to. He should be dealing with any repercussions from the people he's defending against; not you. Go flamebait elsewhere.

My message wasn't about his reply to me. His reply was to someone else.

And I like this concept; it has everything and it has fit it all onto the one screen just fine.

Ok. Great. So we disagree. You don't see me telling you that you are wrong, do you?
 
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fine, you want answers, I'll give you answers, I'll even include a link to show most of them had already been answered.

I see you conveniently left out the rest of the post "What happens when another weapon is added to one of the filled sections?

as i said, this version is small and not everything fits, if it were to be put to actual size the spacing of those weapon slots could be 1.5 to twice the size they are right now.

well, it isn't perfect.
that being said, working with paint doesn't make it any easier.

the main problem i have is the bad quality of paint and the inability to make precision changes, which also explains why it looks kinda crammed.
(this also means that i cant re-size stuff without loosing even more quality)


What happens when a support loads up on more weapons than you can show?

pretty much the same as above. but in extreme cases (like when he buys all the items that weigh 1-3 block there might be a scroll bar, but I'm pretty sure it would fit if it were in the correct size)

Why are some of the items red?


all items with a red coloured price are buy-able, (as you have enough cash, not on weight) i thought this was pretty obvious.

Why are you wasting valuable real esatte with an "in-picture" of the team in the trader area?"

it's not a picture, its an in-game "feed" so you can see what your team is doing. (this was but in to see if your team left you behind or who drops what where)

oke, here's Version 2.0

includes:
- easy spot-able dosh
- ability to see where your looking at while in-trade
- still forgot the leave trader button
- added colour on current perk
- still no names above weapons (impossible to read)
- few changes in layout

I've raised this point in the past so I'll ask for the indulgence for those who have read this before.

I'd like the trader screen to provide some in-game visibility. Either something that *isn't* full-screen, or perhaps is semi-transparent, or has, literally, a window in the center. That way, people can see who is changing perks, and what is being selected. Who is buying what weapon(s), who is being generous with their cash and meds, and, perhaps most important, that everyone else is departing. Not to mention, permitting them to see that they might just be the reason everyone else can't enter or leave. (How many times has a poor egress from the trader screwed up an entire wave?) Yes, experienced players and good communications are the current solution to this issue, and, I get that. I just don't see a downside if, from a programming standpoint, this isn't the equivalent of splitting the atom.

I'd pretty much be willing to accommodate any layout that included this feature.



The concept is bad. How you and blackfire don't understand that is beyond me.

if you think the concept is bad you can make your own and post it in, I'm trying to get something that everyone will like. (and the thick borders, colours, and fonts are paint quality, not much i can do about it)

you don't seem to understand that i am not trying to REPLACE the current trading window, its STILL A CONCEPTS, TW is allowed to do whatever the hell they want with it as long as it contains some of the suggested stuff i added, it's supposed to be a guideline so they know what the community wants, so of course it might have some flaws, that's why they are there to fix it for us, right? it's not like i am a magician that can magically put the best possible version of the trade-window on paper.

also, I'm not stopping you from putting your own idea of a "good" trader window on paper.


There is a difference between "concept" and "implementation." A perfect example is the "Destroyer" specimen. http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=46860http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=46860 I haven't really looked at the specimen's stats, but I can tell you that is an absolutely terrible picture. /However/, the picture is there just thrown together quickly as a concept. And that is just fine. He just grabbed the quickest pictures of the things he needed and threw them together. Nothing wrong with that.

you could at least praise him for the work (which he did in his own time, for the community)

The concept of blackfire's trader window is bad. I've gone over why I think it is bad. Rather than reply to those points (or any other criticisms), blackfire immediately goes into defensive mode and lashes out. Do you think that if some graphic artist spent a week making it /look/ better it would /function/ better? It wouldn't because the are design problems that go beyond the thick red borders. How exactly is this difficult to understand?

might be so, but i did say that i already explained your and the other guys questions, and i wasn't in the mood to list them all again. (now i am in the mood)



And even if you don't agree with me, so what? Just ignore me or say "I think you're wrong." and leave it at that. People disagree all of the time. Rhenna did that. She thinks there should be a trader window. I don't.

im sorry if i did, but the way you replied to most of my comments wasn't really "friendly" either

Oh, and if you think that "UI could be made for the smallest KF resolution and therefore, scale up with any of the bigger sizes; simple." works, then you haven't done any design work.

this isn't for me to figure out, i don't work for TW.

One more thing. How exactly do you think something goes from concept to finalized? People criticizing the work and the work being refined. Duh.

true, true indeed, i just didn't like the tone you used to do it. you could also have said: "i don't like this" or "that part is horrible, i suggest" instead of "your "CONCEPT" is bad, very bad. *insert stuff here*"
(which i already made clear was up to everyone ells to change or correct to their liking with feedback. you gave feedback, yes, but to the stuff you wanted me to change was about the stuff i explained was "hard to change" because of paint's quality.)

My message wasn't about his reply to me. His reply was to someone else.

Ok. Great. So we disagree. You don't see me telling you that you are wrong, do you?

i haven't said i was right either........ i might be wrong here though.
and in certain ways you do point to me being wrong.

Your "CONCEPTS" is bad. Very bad.
Because blackfire can't handle criticisms.

now, if this doesn't sort things out i don't know what to do any more.;)

edit:
@blackfire
He did respond to you and when you were dismissive about his complaints he reiterated his issues and told you, and rightly so, that you aren't listening to his complaints. With any visual idea, it makes sense to criticize the style, regardless of the time and tools involved, and he was right about white space and usability.

even so, if someone forced you to make a car with 3 wooden stick and a piece of plastic, would you want to be "criticised" on your bad result, even though you spend hours on the tiny scavenge car, that looks pretty decent for the materials used.
 
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fine, you want answers, I'll give you answers, I'll even include a link to show most of them had already been answered.

You don't have to answer me. The posts after your replies were about your defensiveness because you got so defensive so quickly. If you don't want to talk about your design, then don't. I'll go over that at the end.

About losing image quality, that doesn't matter. As I mentioned with the Destroyer model, image quality isn't important when doing a mockup. Getting the design right is. No one cares if you have to use pixelated images in a mockup.

So you would use scrollbars rather than resizing the images when there are too many?

While to you, using red lettering may be "pretty obvious", the fact is that is red lettering to the majority of people means "stop", "can't", "lacking", or implies a negative aspect. So using red letter to convey that something is buyable is a bad idea.

An in-game feed is a waste of valuable space. Unless it is large enough to show detail, a player will not be able to see perks, perk levels, weapons carried, or weapons dropped. The only thing it could show is if everyone leaves, but a good player will either know that or avoid being left in the first place. The trader windows has a limited amount of space and every pixel that is used for something is space that is taken away from something else.

"if you think the concept is bad you can make your own and post it in,..." Again, no need to get that defensive.

Why do I need to "at least praise him for the work (which he did in his own time, for the community)"? I was just using the Destroyer as an example. No need to try and find insult with everything dude.

The rest of the quote you were replying to my posts to someone else. No idea why you were answered specific questions to someone else and no idea why you were answering them as if I asked them to you.

"if someone forced you to make a car with 3 wooden stick and a piece of plastic, would you want to be "criticised" on your bad result, even though you spend hours on the tiny scavenge car, that looks pretty decent for the materials used."

No one forced you to do anything. If you can't accept criticism, then don't put your work out to be judged. If you know it is a bad result, then don't be surprised when you receive criticism. Learn to accept criticism without striking out. Even if you don't agree with it.

Ok, here is some unsolicited advice for you. You can ignore it if you want. When you submit work you have to be able to accept praise and criticism. While this sounds strange, criticism is better. But to get back to the point, you have to be able to accept criticism without going into defensive and "strike out at everything" modes. Yes, it is tough to accept someone telling you that they think your work is lacking in some or many qualities, but that is how things are made better. Saying something is wrong with your work is not personal. You also need to learn to ignore "tone" as in "i just didn't like the tone you used to do it." Text is impersonal and more often that not, people read negativity and rudeness in text when none was meant. Get over it. Only you can decide your reaction.

There are multiple ways to accept criticism. Here are some examples.

1) I see your point and you are correct.
2) I see your point but I think my way is better.
3) I see your point and I don't agree with it.
4) Just ignore the criticism.

There is no need to strike out, call names, or get defensive. If you can't accept someone criticizing your work, don't submit it.
 
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I don't mind the design (obviously TWI would want one that looked reasonably similar theme-wise to the old) but I think most of the issues that yours fixes could be also solved fairly easily with minimal effort.

Personally I'd prioritise keyboard shortcuts first (for example WASD scrolling the available weapons, Spacebar buying or selling the selected weapon). A close second would be some sort of design to remove the scrolling entirely. Perhaps a tabbed window (almost like your browser tabs) with perk icons - clicking on a perk icon brings up its related weapons?

This might be a little less newb-friendly than the current menu, but then again it might decrease the Shotgun-wielding Sharpshooters (etc.)...
 
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I actually support edits to the UI. Blackfire has a good concept and yes, it does need a few edits but we have a good idea of what it should be like and that's subject to change. After all, it's an MSPaint concept, not the final UI like Akame and Nutter want to see. Just ignore Nutter, he has a pretty bad reputation on these 'ere lands. Just look at his previous suggestions like "Pat the Hairdresser." He has a habit of violently defending the most retarded ideas everyone's ever heard. I beleive I pointed this out and he blocked me for it. :p
 
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just so you know, with the little information you give me i still have no idea what an how i should change it.

you say "An in-game feed is a waste of valuable space....." which is your opinion, respectively, while the majority of people say it's useful.
and yes, you would be able to see all the details: money, weapons, perks(lvls).

about the design, i still have NO idea what you want, and how you want to see it. maybe the same as the current design? i dunno! everything you suggest is stuff i cant "just" change

and the red lettering is the same as the red letters the current design uses, I'm not going to change something that works. i don't think toxic green would fit very good with the "survival horror" theme of the game.
don't fix what isn't broken
i would only use the scrollbar when absolutely necessary, which (as i told) don't believe is necessary at all if the sizing was correct.
(i don't do detail work, that's up to TWi, because I'm not an artist)

I didn't say my concept was "bad", i said it wasn't perfect. i also came to the forums to ask if other people agreed the shop needs a clean-up, and to break the drag of the hordes of new wep,specimen,perk ideas ravaging the forums. and of course for any additional input (which i don't appreciate if it gets forced on me)

i was not in any way using the destroyed model against you, i was just saying that you could at least appreciate people for the work they do.

the "defensive" speech still doesn't do much to me, i did indeed answer pretty hasty and ignorant, but i already said i was at fault there. not to mention that i have all the rights to get defensive when people criticise on my work, its still my work after all. it just depends on my mood how i react.

well, oke, i wasn't forced. but the general point still stands

the fact that your still talking about criticism, which (as you don't seem to notice) i am taking on right now. means something else to me.

and last, eeh... where exactly did i "strike out" or "called a name".

but im starting to get defensive here again, i guess..
maybe i should get more aggressive and ask you some questions.


Why is it that you seem to miss interpret every comment i make? is it my English? i highly doubt that as other people that seem to have the slightest clue about what's going on here don't understand what your raging about, nor do i actually. i came here for opinions and suggestions, of course that includes criticism but some people (take a guess) have the urge to plough through every idea that seems stupid or not thought out. Now tell me how come you take it upon yourself to judge me on every single word i type and criticise the same thing hundreds of time even after they have been addressed and explained multiple times to you. do you WANT to be right? should everyone bow down to you and agree to you because your "all knowing"? all i see you do is hammer on the same small flaws in my idea, while i haven't seen you give me ANY advice on how to change it, unless of course you count "the layout is rubbish and the colours dont match, change it" i just don't see your point. Even if i agree with you, you say I'm wrong.

was this a good change of character? because this is pretty much how you started your "discussion" with me.

i have tried being nice and mature, but you don't seem to acknowledge me when i act that way, so.

and gibby, i know, but i try to treat everyone in the same way.
some people just bring up the egocentric selfish hypocritical troll inside me.
(which basically all have the same meaning, but hell)

edit: I'm not planning on reading useless comments any more, i hate the egocentric selfish hypocritical troll i am, 's why i play dumb.

I'll just take it up me to don't give a damn. the reason why, you ask?
4) Just ignore the criticism.
 
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