Accuracy needs to be reduced on ALL the weapons ingame

Roska said:

The uniforms aren't that heavy, silly!

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Oh you! Silly Card! But yes, in fact they are... Most of the uniforms were wool, cotton/manilla canvas; and when wet (which was most of the time) were far heavier then a contemporary uniform that carries a fraction of the water, and dries in a fraction of the time.

Roska said:

More than that, the combat gear of average Fritz and Ivan ws a lot lighter than modern combat gear is.

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Another digression...and you really need to do your homework...

Roska said:

But this is all irrelevant. You can never have full realism when playing PC games...

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No one in this thread is asking for or discussing 'full realism' but you; most just want a game that doesn't handle like Unreal 3, or GOW...

Roska said:

By the way, a thing I forgot to mention... old rifles are easier to aim standing than modern rifles because a lot of the weight is on your forward arm. The shorter modern rifles are slower to aim accurately than longer rifles because the weight is on the rear arm, thus adding sway and not having a "steady" support in the front.

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That, is... Ridiculous! You just demonstrated what you do not know -- in so many ways I'll let you slap yourself with the obvious. But read USSZim's post for a hint, as he obviously has held a rifle... And yes USSZim the absurd assumptions never cease to amaze me as well as the number of people that will outright lie for what? I don't know, to get what they want in the game? Even if the lie were believed by all they probably will not get what they want.

Comparitive, honest deconstruction of what's realistic in terms of scale and what isn't is at the very least interesting discussion, and a good starting place for better game design where some modicum of realism is desired in how the game is actually played is the desired outcome... As far as what Tripwire does, well that's another matter of a lot of NIH syndrome...

The closer the game plays to Red Orchestra Ostfront,the better. Red Orchestra 2 needs more sway! It also needs the classic damage system which, for example, decreases the player's running speed when he is shot in the leg. Everything tripwire added is completely terrible,especially the bandaging and prone blocking.

Am I the only one who thinks that we will get the same sprinting/stamina mechanic as we had in RO:41-45, at a (un)certain time?
Although I don't think the max duration of a sprint in RO:41-45 was realistic, nor did the speed feel correct, but the "out of breath" feature was done very well.
I really can't imagine RO2 without it. I absolutely have no idea about the plans for RO2 (in TWI's minds), but I don't think they overlooked it. Just didn't have the highest priority.

This afternoon I made a post about how many people I think/thought to be working for TWI. I thought about 30 (was making a comparisson with Dice b.t.w. They have 200 people working on BF3 at the moment) last thing I read on the forums was that there are 17 people slaving to get everything straightened out...

Show a little respect for the people who havn't let us down in RO:41-45, please. They won't let us down with RO2 either, I'm sure.

Rrralphster said:

Show a little respect for the people who havn't let us down in RO:41-45, please. They won't let us down with RO2 either, I'm sure.

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They should make their intentions clear with transparency in order to create a more pleasant forum atmosphere.

All I see is that a gamey version of RO:O was released with the "standard" mode having arcade stuff and the difficulty brought right down with highly altered gameplay. With the realism mode simply having a tweaked HUD. They should take some time at some point with a state of the game thread. I always had respect for TWI but they shouldn't stay silent on such issues

MadGelo said:

as soon as your head pops out somewhere, boom you dead, there are barely any firefights, just "sniping"

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Agree.
More sway, much more.
You want to score a good shot from a long distance? Then rest your weapon or shoot from prone position.

I want to play RO2 not a Medal of Honor game or Sniper Elite 2.

Straight up the game needs more sway right now. Doesn't matter if you're fresh as a daisy or a war weary veteran you're always going have an extreme amount of sway past what one would consider point blank. Also you can not eliminate 'sway' unless you physically bench/rest the rifle on something. The military now and then both taught to shoot through the sights - you DO NOT chase the sights to the target but instead understand the concept of what we're calling 'sway' (natural respiratory rhythm) and shoot through the sights when the target is brought into your sights by the sway itself.

I've been watching these threads and have become so perturbed by the amount of falsehoods and "I heard it on the military channel or saw it in XYZ video game so I will regurgitate it as factual information" crap. I was quite tempted to make a video of putting a scientific laser on the end of any old rifle and filming the 'sway' at 50 and even out to the oh so crazy distance of 100 yards. Next range trip perhaps.

I don't believe there needs to be more sway. After having gone back and playing Ostfront for a couple hours for the sake of comparison, I believe that Ro2 actually has more sway. It could be that the new zoom mechanic makes the amount of sway more noticeable. I also don't have actual quantifiable evidence of this, but to me the actual act of shooting in RO1 is easier.

I have made the suggestion before to add new mechanics to aiming beyond just weapon sway. Adding a ludicrous amount of sway would end up being unrealistic, albeit more challenging which is what most of the people in this thread would like. There are different ways to add challenge to the act of shooting. For example, when you turn beyond a certain point you can hear your character repositioning his feet. Perhaps there could be a mechanic similar to the way a deployed MG takes a second to reposition and realign when turning, but instead applied to an aimed rifle (or other firearm). As it is now, you can spin in a 360 degree turn at whatever speed your sensitivity is set to, without having to so much as realign your sights.

I only say this, because I believe there is a more interesting way to go about this than simply adding sway.

EDIT

After playing around with my rifle, I would change my suggestion. It is possible to turn in one spot while keeping my sights/scope relatively aligned. However when trying to turn quickly they become out of alignment very easily. So my suggestion should be altered, if a player turns more than X number of degrees per second they must take a fraction of a second to re-align their sights.

Yes FBOTheLiuetenant -- your post suggests one of the largest issues confronting Fans that want to objectively evaluate and and offer constructive criticism of the game: there is no objective data...

Most Tactical Realism games: Ghost Recon, the BI games, SWAT -- and even a lot of MOTR shooters like DICE's Battlefield games publish, or allow access to game content so we can ascertain exact, objective weapon and player metrics.

Red Orchestra since its roll-out from mod to commercial erm... project has kept all objective game metric information mum; which has a lot of negative impact in so far as letting Fans better understand that game's design, and any rational productive discussion...

Put it this way. You can sprint so you lose all your stamina. Have someone shoot at you and miss (because they are really bad at aiming). You can then turn around and easily lock on to him and fire.

Think ArmA for example. You've been sprinting. You can't really hold your gun so straight. It takes a fair few breathes to hold that gun steady.

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It's very simple at the moment. There are no firefights in this game. Why? Because people are dieing and people can't stick their head out of cover. Why can't they stick their head out of cover? Because if they do. They die. Players are so damn accurate with their weapons.

Inuki said:

Put it this way. You can sprint so you lose all your stamina. Have someone shoot at you and miss (because they are really bad at aiming). You can then turn around and easily lock on to him and fire.

Think ArmA for example. You've been sprinting. You can't really hold your gun so straight. It takes a fair few breathes to hold that gun steady.

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It's very simple at the moment. There are no firefights in this game. Why? Because people are dieing and people can't stick their head out of cover. Why can't they stick their head out of cover? Because if they do. They die. Players are so damn accurate with their weapons.

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Because the players with their heads out of cover aren't braced up against something with their rifle at the ready.

It's -exactly- the same as RO, just from a longer distance.

They're in cover, you're not. Get in cover, learn to move tactically, and play smart, and you'll win a lot more firefights.

Inuki said:

It's very simple at the moment. There are no firefights in this game. Why? Because people are dieing and people can't stick their head out of cover. Why can't they stick their head out of cover? Because if they do. They die. Players are so damn accurate with their weapons.

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At the range this game provides, people better be accurate. I mean a guy is just laying there, aiming at the edge of a corner about 50 meters away, then you stick your head out on that corner. What do you expect to happen?

Long (duration wise) gunfights only happen if people lay low and take inaccurate potshot at area they think the enemy may be. If you see someone clearly, there won't be a long gunfight.

And you are not suppose to assault an enemy that's basically in cover and facing your direction. Move around. Flank. Go for an area where you are not expected.

Prof said:

hmm...the only thing making real weapons inaccurate is the recoil and badly configured sights...I don't see why a weapon with good sights should not hit where it is aimed at.

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I'd say the only thing that makes a weapon inaccurate is the person holding it. In RO2, everybody is a robot so that doesn't come into play.

People think they are shooting at targets waaay down range because we're staring at tiny characters on relatively small screens, when you can hardly shoot farther than 200m in game. IRL, a beginner can hardly miss a stationary man sized target at 100m, any decent shooter can reliably hit targets with iron sights at 200m.

I think the accuracy is fine, I'd just like to see more things that influence your aim (like stamina and health) to a slightly greater degree.

Yet another thread of people subtly admitting they never even *played* Ostfront.

"Sway like RO1"

Wait so you want the game to be easier?

I agree that sway and breathing are pretty damn easy compared to the first Red orchestra, I hardly rest my weapon unless it's a machine gun. Hip-Firering the MG is pretty easy. I agree that there arn't many fire fights, except in maps where buildings are the objective. Because people can't just camp and snipe, they have to be more courageous and engage at closer than 50m. Takes more Balls and not just skill with a digitalized weapon, where only the bullet drop and flight time are taken into account, plus players arn't forced by their Squad Leaders to storm a certain area if they don't want, so they play it safer and engage at longer distances.

Josef Nader said:

Because the players with their heads out of cover aren't braced up against something with their rifle at the ready.

It's -exactly- the same as RO, just from a longer distance.

They're in cover, you're not. Get in cover, learn to move tactically, and play smart, and you'll win a lot more firefights.

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No, I'm sorry but you're wrong there. I personally taught how to "move tactically", I have pages of training and drills to help with this. RO2 is currently not built to have firefights, they are more like quick draw duels. A large portion of tactics have been taken out because of one simple problem;

You cannot "push" or make an enemy take cover. In Darkest Hour, I remember doing some trainings where some of my best members got so good at "tactical movement" that we would duel at the prone position using cover and empty out 3-5 clips on average trying to kill each other. Some might say "you take 4 clips to kill one man? that's really bad!" Those who say this have no idea how many bullets it took on average to kill an enemy in WW2; it was in the 100's if not 1000's. Vietnam in particular was in the 1000's. 3-5 clips means you are staying alive while at the same time engaging the enemy. Your chances of survival go up much much more when you learn the techniques I teach and engage in this manner, rather than the current RO2 and even RO1 "showdown". Also, because the majority of people don't do or understand these techniques, I usually defeat them with a much higher success rate than when having a "showdown".


The way it was done in Darkest Hour, if you were fast enough, you could put bullets over the enemies head and affect his aim well enough to the point where the enemy would have to get back down under cover. You would sacrifice your own aim to do this, but you could at least break that hold you mentioned. As it is right now in RO2, I'm too afraid to get out of cover to return fire from any position because I know I have to get a killing shot, because simply throwing bullets towards the enemy is not enough to break his hold. So I have to play whack-a-mole, all the while taking pop shots waiting to either get a lucky hit, wait for the enemy to have to reload, or get hit myself.

Because of the nature of suppression and weapon accuracy, RO2 is now about showdowns; you needed to pop up from a different location and be fast enough to aim at your target before he can readjust his on you. The one to do this the fastest wins. I'm not saying this is a bad way to play or noobish, but it does minimize your chances of staying alive considerably, because you wont always win these engagements.

It takes a considerable amount of skill to be able to win the majority of these "showdowns", and I can appreciate how some may regard this as truly rewarding and an admirable skill. I am not one of those people, as I prefer engaging the enemy with tactics and suppression. When you play realism, you would rather have your guys stay alive, so what I teach helps them do so and keep the squad together longer. Showdowns are fun, but put your virtual life into more danger and does not really promote long, tactical, and fun (for me) firefights. A mod is in order to bring back Darkest Hour style suppression and maybe even improve on it so that firefights are fun for people like me and some of those who have posted in this thread.

It takes far more rounds to make a kill in real life because people don't risk their heads to stick out like they do in this game. They mostly make quasi blind fire than pop back into cover in a heat of battle. And Vietnam was with automatic weapons of course. Also don't forget the machine guns on tripods that would be spraying bullets from 500+ meters.

People play insanely recklessly in this game because of respawn. Have you seen territory matches when both sides have good 15 ~ 20 people left but reinforcement dried up? People shoot at anything they feel suspicious about, and they barely advance.

If you want realism please don't mention suppression system because real bullets nearly missing you don't make you drunk and impair vision with temporary color blindness. That's not how real suppression works. Although repeated MG fire nearby could borderline deafen you and that would be cool to implement in this game.

Guns actually perform realistically, but the type of battles that RO1 fans wanted requires way bigger maps. That and players actually caring more about living than making a kill. But it's a game so everyone will do everything to get a kill...

S.t.a.l.k.e.r. said:

Agree.
More sway, much more.
You want to score a good shot from a long distance? Then rest your weapon or shoot from prone position.

I want to play RO2 not a Medal of Honor game or Sniper Elite 2.

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Yes.... we need more sway.... much more sway..... I want my soldier in the game to act like he's piss-loaded drunk shooting a musket..... now that's what this game needs.

After all, soldiers in WWII were never trained in how to use their weapons, the weapons in WWII were never accurate and shot like their barrels were bent..... and when they stood or crouched to aim, they swayed 5 feet to the left/right.

In all seriousness, the weapons work just as they should compared to my own personal experience.

If people are complaining about others in the game killing them too easily and that their own RO1 tactics are not working like they used to, then it's time to find some new tactics.

Just yesterday I was playing Sparta as the German Commander. Very few people were advancing and none of the squad leaders were popping smoke, so I moved up along the wall of the church where everybody was pinned by riflemen and MG's. I popped some smoke and then told everybody to move their arses, then ran out to lead the charge.

Unfortunately my smoke didn't block a damn thing and I jumped out into the open. I ran as fast as I could from the concrete wall to one of the buildings..... standing/running, and then crouch/running, then back to standing/running in order to change up my speed and placement of my body.

MG and Rifle rounds flew all around me, yet I made it to the building without taking one hit. If accuracy was really that much of a problem, I should have died 2 seconds after I left the concrete wall.

It's just too bad nobody else on my damn team followed.

Cpt-Praxius said:

In all seriousness, the weapons work just as they should compared to my own personal experience.

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Look at this pro, he can insta ironsight in real life!

Stormer said:

Look at this pro, he can insta ironsight in real life!

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Way to troll and contribute

I'm so terribly sorry that my abilities to actually fire a rifle accurately due to real training on how to operate a rifle doesn't match your armchair doom training.

If you actually try playing a realism server, rather than a relaxed realism server, you'll notice the sway is far greater in Realism, yet it's still more realistic than what's in RO1.

Oh but I and others in this forum actually make sense with arguments you can't refute, so just keep trivializing those comments and troll with one-liners.... as if that makes you sound more like an expert.

The thing is, the guys in Tripwire put more time, effort and research into these details in the game, based on real life studies and what real soldiers trained on such weapons, more than you or I ever did...... yet you want to act like you somehow know better?

Good luck with that.

It was already stated countless times that the RO1 physics of sway, etc. were based on the Dev's own operation and handling of the weapons, which does not equate to how fully trained soldiers would operate those same weapons, which is exactly what they did for RO2. But if you think things were better using the sway of an average, un-trained joe blow.... by all means, ask for a mutator for your game that nerfs your gameplay and leave the rest of us alone.