It's still not too late devs....

SolitarioSoldat · Nov 1, 2011

You can hate me, downvote me, move the posting or delete it but I have to type this and I will make it as less painfull for your eyes by being clear about what I think.

I'm not a ROOST vet I accidently found out trough BF forums about it about 1 year a go and being as lazy as I'm it took me a whole month to create google email so that I can finally sign up and actually post instead of lurking the forums.

So I signed up,got to know the community,they helped me made up my mind into getting ROOST along with Mare Nostrum and DH and to be honest once I landed my hands on the game I never got enough of it. I have been gaming for 6+ years only FPS games so even though ROOST was a realistic shooter I got the hang of it in around 30 hrs of gameplay and started mixing it up with the big boys.

ROOST and DH especially opened my eyes to how FPS games should feel like,and ROOST was reminding me so much of vCOD and UO which I still love.I have never looked back into other FPS MP games once I tried ROOST,I tried BF3 beta and only played it for 30 min,more like forcing my self to play it but it just didn't gave me any excitement or challenge at all.

TWI,....you guys made great game long a go that got people sucked into it,I wish I was one of them but sadly I've never heard of ROOST till recently. You guys builded a small community of followers that love the game you created and love the way you treat the community by being into discussions and mixing it up.

There is no doubt in my eyes that you nailed again with RO2 but somehow you guys thought that if you mix up realism with a little bit of arcade you will have both of the worlds playing the game. Looks like things are not going in that direction,and looks like that ROOST vets are big perecentage of the gamers while the game was peaking up to 10.000 players daily.

Its nice to know you guys are trying to work on the bugs and nice to know you care,but when it boils down to what really keeps people away from the game is the core gameplay itself.ROOST vets already know how RO2 should feel core wise,and as for the arcade gamers that ventured into RO2 they wanted more realism and immersion but they didnt quite got what they wanted....

I love so many things about RO2 such as graphics,the feel of war,no stiffy clunky movement like in ROOST,cover system (even though buggy sometimes I addapted and know when its good to use it),blind fire, blind trow of grenades and many many more goodies. But when it comes down to how I would like RO2 to feel as a whole game I would like to immerse me like ROOST and DH did and I know dear devs you know what I'm talking about,the core gameplay!!!

Its not too late to bring back people into the game again,and its not a huge deal to tweak the tiredness of the soldier when running full spead,or the sway of the weapon after being tired, or the speed of ADS etc etc etc... You know best how to tweak RO2 in order to feel like the first born son of ROOST, and I know you can make it happen if you wanted to.

Its not too late,there are lots of people that trust in you even though they say I WILL NEVER TRUST TWI or RJ again. You guys made a great game out of RO2 why not go the extra mile and make it a LEGEND along with the official mods,you guys can turn around FPS gaming and open a lots of gamers eyes,but its up to you not up to us or the new comers.

Qweets · Nov 1, 2011

just because they aren't posting on the general discussion forums doesn't mean they aren't working hard to make the game perfect. They had to release it when they did probably for money to keep on working on it. The original RO wasn't a huge game in comparison to like COD or BF games it was a niche thing and so is RO2, RO didn't start pulling in like 10k players until later on down the road when they had fixed everything from previous iterations of RO 1. I'm sure the same is being done here.

Nezzer · Nov 1, 2011

I got an infraction for posting "+1". These forums are really becoming a police state.

Anyway, I just wanted to say I agree with you entirely. I haven't given up on RO2 yet and I still trust a little in TWI, evn after all those lies. I gave the game a break as it only drives a history buff like myself mad. I'm back to DH and FH2 until the core of the game is fixed

SolitarioSoldat · Nov 1, 2011

Qweets said:
just because they aren't posting on the general discussion forums doesn't mean they aren't working hard to make the game perfect. They had to release it when they did probably for money to keep on working on it. The original RO wasn't a huge game in comparison to like COD or BF games it was a niche thing and so is RO2, RO didn't start pulling in like 10k players until later on down the road when they had fixed everything from previous iterations of RO 1. I'm sure the same is being done here.

I do hope your right about TWI working secretly and planing on tweaking the core gameplay,but as for the amount of players used to be and are currently RO2 vs ROOST I believe your wrong, not sure if ROOST had such a sucsessfull sale as RO2 and brought 10.000 gamers online constantly 24/7 in the first 2-3 weeks,and then drop to 1.500. I believe ROOST started out slow but steady in sales and the online popularity was increasing as the good word was spreading around.

RO2 jumped high in start and as we see now is,well you know how things are with RO2 now, I hate to see the game going this path since it has tremendous potential to become FPS game played on large scale.

Nikita · Nov 1, 2011

For those complaining about censorship, infractions, downvotes...

It's not rocket science. It's the real-world proof that a gallon of vinegar (or the Olympic-sized swimming pool's worth sloshing around everywhere) gets you nowhere. Try a spoonful of honey, gentlemen.

Honestly, given the way things are going I wouldn't be surprised if the devs took the easy way out and stopped interacting directly with the community alltogether. Threads with constructive, polite criticism are drowned out by, and often polluted with, inane babbling, accusations, and declarations of treachery.

I fully agree with the general sentiment of your post in that I feel Tripwire's strength lies in its attention to immersive, highly authentic-feeling (not necessarily 100% realistic) gameplay.* Little details like the extra round you lose when partially reloading a G41, the revolving drum mag on the DP28, the ammo check animation on the Nagant, the medical satchel left on an empty, rubble-dusted bunk in the Infirmary on Barracks... that is where Red Orchestra shines. And honestly, that's what brings new players to the series.:IS2:

I too entered the community less than a year ago, and was captivated by the game for the same reasons. I'm on your side, and on the side of all of those advocating for realism changes that IMPROVE gameplay and immersion.

But there's a right way and a wrong way to go about advocating. The game hasn't remorselessly betrayed its fan base, it's not dead, it's not a failure, and it's not unplayable except for an unlucky few. If anything, the number of suggestions, the amount of complaints, and the degree of passion we see on the forums is a reflection of how CLOSE the game is to being a smashing success.

Everyone has their list of those few gameplay changes, those few bug fixes, that would make them a die-hard player. That's an indication of the tremendous potential the game has.

So unless we want to push the devs off the deep end to the point where they abandon RO2, break the banhammer on our skulls, and hire some PR guy who may as well be a robot to deal with the community for the forseeable future, let's keep it clean and reasonable.

I felt a degree of regret too when I first realized the implications of certain design choices about the unlock system and weapon availability. There are indeed changes that would help. But that, for me, is no reason to put my foot down and proclaim "I WILL NEVER TRUST THEM AGAIN!!!!!!!!!"... Rather, I view Tripwire as a group of very smart, rational people, who--if prompted to by reasonable requests from a friendly community--will naturally try to address their concerns.

SolitarioSoldat · Nov 1, 2011

@ Nikita

and thats exactly what I was trying to say in my post, RO2 can be so much more than already is, this game has so much potential its not even funny

luciferintears · Nov 1, 2011

well said.

however, am i the only one here who actually liked the "clunkyness" of Ost Front? I didnt find it clunky though. I thought it was more reminiscent of controlling a person that actually had weight and inertia, rather than a camera on wheels.

interesting...

Rumpullpus · Nov 1, 2011

Nikita said:
.......But there's a right way and a wrong way to go about advocating. The game hasn't remorselessly betrayed its fan base, it's not dead, it's not a failure, and it's not unplayable except for an unlucky few. If anything, the number of suggestions, the amount of complaints, and the degree of passion we see on the forums is a reflection of how CLOSE the game is to being a smashing success.....

im sorry but they did betray their fan base. it was fans screaming on the hill tops saying that rare weapons like MKBs dont belong in the game, and it was fans saying that unlocks that touch stats on weapons would just unblanace the game. and it was the devs that said "dont worry TRUST US"

dont worry rare weapons will be for heroes only, dont WORRY unlocks wont touch the basic gameplay machanics. and yet here we are, with a game that clearly does have problems with unlocks, that CLEARLY doesnt limit rare weapons.

face it, its dead/dieing until mods come out and if the vanilla version of the game itself isnt any fun, then in my book that is a failure.

Leo4444 · Nov 1, 2011

luciferintears said:
well said.

however, am i the only one here who actually liked the "clunkyness" of Ost Front? I didnt find it clunky though. I thought it was more reminiscent of controlling a person that actually had weight and inertia, rather than a camera on wheels.

interesting...

Yea it limited the rambos and the accuracy and honestly if realism was no fun then games like arma2 and fh would have no fanbase.

Sensemann · Nov 1, 2011

@SolitarioSoldat and Nikita

I know both of you through the forums and the game and it's needless to say that I respect both of you. I also (partly) agree with your opinions on this thread.
However, I still remember how RO 2 was advertised (on the forums) and how impressive, breathtaking and stunning the game will be. Especially, I remember the concerns about how some of the realism clan guys were worrying about the problem of dumpind down gameplay etc. This was actually well-handled by TWI with the statement that there will be 2 gamemodes, "Realism" and "Relaxed Realism".
When I read this, I thought that it's a smart move because I had the hope that many new guys will be attracted to the game because the "Relaxed Realism" will allow them to get familiar with the game mechanics and I had the hope that many of those players would later on search their challenge in the "Realism" mode. Like recruiting new hardcore RO fans. It sounded awesome.

The whole discussion then went to Mkbs, AVTs and again, TWI used the magic word "CHOICES". I love choices. And if I can choose to enter a server on which Mkbs and AVTs are disabled, that would have been and would be my choice. Exceptionally, I would have played on servers with them being enabled, no problem. This topic then switched to those weapons becoming rare. How rare that is can be seen right now. Rare as a word is not defined, but the average reader on the forums (based on 100s of posts on this forum) had the impression that those weapons would be available for 1-2 players on each team. I would be fine with that. Looking at the game right now, I see that it's not true.'

As a conclusion to myself, I bought RO 2 under the impression that it's a sequel of RO mod and the retail game with better graphics and some very neat features (cover system, bullet penetration) and historical accuracy. Check the threads from a couple of weeks/months before release and tell me if I got the wrong impression through what was discussed on this forum.

When I started RO 2 yesterday, I thought I play it with no bad feelings (I still like the game somehow, but I don't love it like RO which I played since the mod). After 15 minutes though, I quit the game. Not because of bugs (which never really hurted me much, I am lucky), but because in the 15 minutes of gametime, I played Apartments and Barracks and guess what: I played Russian only, rifleman and for 2 lifes, semi-rifleman and I was killed approx. 10 times by Mkbs and 5 times by hipshooting MG 34s.

There is no denial of what I have experienced, because I just did (and not for the first time). I want to play my tactical RO-game to get that in-depth experience and immersion of being confronted with an environment where the only rule is "survival of the fittest". What I did get up to now from RO 2 is the running horde of perk-collecting, levelling up brainless guys that are collecting XP-points, no matter if their combat behavior is still realistic (try to survive first, eh?) or arcade like.

I could spend tears to see how the game is currently playing and if that is really the thing I thought I am waiting for for 4 years. I hope and pray that TWI delivers what they initially promised on this forum. If they do, they might regain the trust from many old players who will book the current state as "tried, didn't work, learned a lesson, forgive TWI", or the game stays like this and the niche community of RO 1 will be downsized to an even smaller player number that will majorly stick with mods.

Sad thing that I have to write this, because TWI made me believe it was the only company that sticks with it's roots.

Dionysos · Nov 1, 2011

I think it's a mixed problem really. On one side there's the game not knowing whether it wants to be arcadey with its unlocks and plentiful automatics, on the other it's players playing in a run 'n gun style.

I have had some really awesome matches in RO2, on (realism) pubs. In all of those instances there were a couple of people on my team using VOIP, sometimes you just have to start talking yourself and others will join in. Today I participated in an epic battle on Red October with a lot of communication (especially for a pub) and an epic last push where we capped and won the game with 16 seconds to spare.

I think the potential is there. If players make an effort, half of the battle is won and it's already very enjoyable. If some of the things were implemented according to what impressions TWI gave prior to release, I think it might be perfect.

Grobut · Nov 2, 2011

Nikita said:
But there's a right way and a wrong way to go about advocating.

Maybe you wheren't active in this community when all this went down, but let me tell you, the vast majority of people you see spewing "vinegar" around here started out polite and diplomatic, we were concearned about things we saw in the game, we raised questions, we made well thought out suggestions for how things could be implimted in a more historical accurate way than what was planned, and whilst we where passionate about what we were saying, only a few people lost their cool right off the bat and got very angry in their posts, the majority of us did not.

But respect is a two way street, and maybe you should be asking yourself why that tone suddenly got hostile, because there are reasons for it, people usually don't act without motivation or reason..

SolitarioSoldat · Nov 2, 2011

luciferintears said:
well said.

however, am i the only one here who actually liked the "clunkyness" of Ost Front? I didnt find it clunky though. I thought it was more reminiscent of controlling a person that actually had weight and inertia, rather than a camera on wheels.

interesting...

when I say clunky i ment like so many times I found my self in a situatuion where I get stuck at the door KEWL just before entering room and trying to clear up the enemies, was kinda weird because it might in a way gave you more realistic feeling to the game but not being able to control ur soldier and just getting stuck between objects was in my eyes more of a NON realistic effect.

Nikita · Nov 2, 2011

Grobut said:
Maybe you wheren't active in this community when all this went down, but let me tell you, the vast majority of people you see spewing "vinegar" around here started out polite and diplomatic, we were concearned about things we saw in the game, we raised questions, we made well thought out suggestions for how things could be implimted in a more historical accurate way than what was planned, and whilst we where passionate about what we were saying, only a few people lost their cool right off the bat and got very angry in their posts, the majority of us did not.

But respect is a two way street, and maybe you should be asking yourself why that tone suddenly got hostile, because there are reasons for it, people usually don't act without motivation or reason..

@Senseman and Grobut

Funny, I actually cut the paragraph in my earlier post talking about how many ostfront vets have become frustrated or disillusioned about RO2, in response to the design changes. I'd have to say that, if I had played the game for the better part of a decade, I'd probably find it very hard to control the tone of my discussion as well. I remember in particular your thread on the PPSh unlocks...

If anything, you guys have a right to be bitter. And if I do say so, for the most part you've all been critical, disapproving, yet at the same time highly constructive.

Respect is a two way street, but that said I don't believe that the developers made any of their choices out of a desire to spite the Ostfront/mod crowd. The way I see it, they were sandwiched between statements already made during marketing, a desire to expand the player base, and a genuine wish to maintain the core gameplay and please the fans. That's why we see such sharp contrasts--six Mkbs on the German team, but breathtakingly accurate tank interiors to fight in. An unlock and experience system with seriously odd attachments, but new features like ammo checking, adjustable sights, and a suppression system.

For instance, by making the questionable choice to unlock the Mkb and AVT for all DDE buyers, they were forced to ensure that those players would be able to use their shiny new weapons more frequently... By committing early on to an unlock system for weapons, they were stuck brainstorming for increasingly improbable attachments, cosmetic changes, etc...

I'm not saying we can't express the displeasure we feel about certain aspects of the game. And given the conflicting promises pre-release, we certainly have the right to be bitter. However, most of what we dislike, with the obvious exception of bugs, was implemented with good intentions and hard work.

So, whether or not certain design decisions were right or wrong, I at least feel that the devs already know which new features are unpopular. They may have hoped unrealistically that things like rare weapons would capture the heards of the Ostfront crowd, but that hope in itself is not a distasteful thing.

A true betrayal would have been something akin to the implementation of five-second respawn, regenerating health, and killstreaks. If that had been the case, I assure you that I'd be pouring on the vitriol with everyone else. However, based on the current state of affairs I see only faulty judgement, made with the best of intentions, backed up by grueling effort to make those choices work.

So criticize away. Make your feelings known. I just feel that statements like "I'll never buy another Tripwire game" and "they've jumped on the EA/Activision/Treyarch bandwagon" are completely unfair, unnecessary, and counterproductive.

CandleJack · Nov 2, 2011

One of the first things that needs to be fixed is the rage-worthy "cannot prone here" messages.

If i can't prone here, move me so i can. I hit the prone button for a damn good reason. And then i die, standing up, like a retard.

Cpt-Praxius · Nov 2, 2011

Sensemann said:
@SolitarioSoldat and Nikita

I know both of you through the forums and the game and it's needless to say that I respect both of you. I also (partly) agree with your opinions on this thread.
However, I still remember how RO 2 was advertised (on the forums) and how impressive, breathtaking and stunning the game will be. Especially, I remember the concerns about how some of the realism clan guys were worrying about the problem of dumpind down gameplay etc. This was actually well-handled by TWI with the statement that there will be 2 gamemodes, "Realism" and "Relaxed Realism".
When I read this, I thought that it's a smart move because I had the hope that many new guys will be attracted to the game because the "Relaxed Realism" will allow them to get familiar with the game mechanics and I had the hope that many of those players would later on search their challenge in the "Realism" mode. Like recruiting new hardcore RO fans. It sounded awesome.

The whole discussion then went to Mkbs, AVTs and again, TWI used the magic word "CHOICES". I love choices. And if I can choose to enter a server on which Mkbs and AVTs are disabled, that would have been and would be my choice. Exceptionally, I would have played on servers with them being enabled, no problem. This topic then switched to those weapons becoming rare. How rare that is can be seen right now. Rare as a word is not defined, but the average reader on the forums (based on 100s of posts on this forum) had the impression that those weapons would be available for 1-2 players on each team. I would be fine with that. Looking at the game right now, I see that it's not true.'

As a conclusion to myself, I bought RO 2 under the impression that it's a sequel of RO mod and the retail game with better graphics and some very neat features (cover system, bullet penetration) and historical accuracy. Check the threads from a couple of weeks/months before release and tell me if I got the wrong impression through what was discussed on this forum.

That's the impression I had as well.... I was given the impression before the game's release that it was going to go back to what made the Mod so great and popular, since most of the things that made RO1 so popular were features, maps and physics that came from the mod..... but they changed some key elements in RO1 that didn't carry over from the mod, such as a worse weapon sway, worse recoil, movement was more chuggy, tanks were far weaker and easily killed in one shot in the frontal armour, Panzers were death traps, Panthers were no where near as effective as they were in the Mod, T34's were also weaker, and the only tank that remained the same as in the mod was the IS2.

All of the original maps that were very popular in RO1 were ports of RO:CA maps.

There was a lot more content in RO1 than in RO:CA, but imo, that's all it had going for it, and many of the original elements that brought me into RO just weren't there in RO1 and I found myself hardly playing it.

I have already spent 25 more hours playing RO2 Beta/Retail since Beta release, than I have played RO1 since the day I bought RO1..... which is saying something since RO2 has only just been released not too long ago, while RO1 has been out for a few years now.

I think I even heard a Dev mention that they decided to go back to what made the mod great...... it wasn't drunken weapon sway, it wasn't foolish recoil, it wasn't paper thin tanks and it wasn't huge, expansive maps with small pockets of fighting here and there...... what made RO:CA so great was the well-designed maps, the detail of the maps, the fast pace of the battle, the more easier-to-use weapons, the tanks that could take more than one hit (not including getting hit from behind)... the fact that battles were designed to focus everybody on one or two cap zones at a time, not all of them across the entire map at once like some BF Conquest Monstrosity.

If RO1 never existed and RO2 just came out instead, I would have been happy and I bet most in here who object to RO2 would have actually love RO2, but they're so stuck on what they have experienced in RO1, that they think what was in RO1 is biblical to how RO should be.

When I started RO 2 yesterday, I thought I play it with no bad feelings (I still like the game somehow, but I don't love it like RO which I played since the mod). After 15 minutes though, I quit the game. Not because of bugs (which never really hurted me much, I am lucky), but because in the 15 minutes of gametime, I played Apartments and Barracks and guess what: I played Russian only, rifleman and for 2 lifes, semi-rifleman and I was killed approx. 10 times by Mkbs and 5 times by hipshooting MG 34s.

There is no denial of what I have experienced, because I just did (and not for the first time). I want to play my tactical RO-game to get that in-depth experience and immersion of being confronted with an environment where the only rule is "survival of the fittest". What I did get up to now from RO 2 is the running horde of perk-collecting, levelling up brainless guys that are collecting XP-points, no matter if their combat behavior is still realistic (try to survive first, eh?) or arcade like.

Well, that's not my experience in RO2, but basing RO2 on what you experienced in Barracks and Apartments isn't the best way to get a real impression since Apartments is for the most part, a redo of Danzig (which was always run & gun SMG Combat since the mod days)..... and Barracks isn't much different from Apartments... it's just at night.

I could spend tears to see how the game is currently playing and if that is really the thing I thought I am waiting for for 4 years. I hope and pray that TWI delivers what they initially promised on this forum. If they do, they might regain the trust from many old players who will book the current state as "tried, didn't work, learned a lesson, forgive TWI", or the game stays like this and the niche community of RO 1 will be downsized to an even smaller player number that will majorly stick with mods.

Sad thing that I have to write this, because TWI made me believe it was the only company that sticks with it's roots.

IMO, they did, but as proof between your view and my view from being from the mod days, even old mod vets have differing views on what RO is or should be, and we both have differing reasons on why we got into the game in the first place.

I have no idea how to count how many hours I played the Mod, but I know it was a hell of a lot more than what I spent playing RO1, and I already played RO2 more in the last two months than I played RO1 in total..... RO2 has brought me back into RO and while there are still a few things that need to be tweaked and/or added, overall I am impressed with RO2 and it is leaps and bounds above RO1 in every aspect except for content (which will come soon enough)

And I hated the mods for RO1 more than RO1 itself.

I should correct that.... Mare N. seemed to have some great potential and looked interesting, but there weren't any players online for me to play against...... Darkest Hour, while it did seem appealing, turned out to be crap for me and I had no real interest in playing it beyond the 12 hours I already played. Couldn't stand the weapon sights, couldn't stand the excessive muzzle flash, and to me, was a lesser quality version of RO1 itself.

Red Orchestra: Combined Arms, while it was a Mod of UT2k3/4, actually felt like its own game..... Darkest Hour just felt like a community Mod of a game and didn't stand apart as its own.

My opinion of course, I know plenty of people enjoyed both RO1 and DH..... I didn't and I'm merely voicing my opinion how RO2 compared to my experiences with RO1 and RO:CA.

=7Cav=OIFVET101 · Nov 2, 2011

RO2 will work out

RO2 will work out

While there are many who are dissatisfied with RO2, and in many ways rightly so, allow me to throw in my 2 cents on the matter.

Is the game perfect? No its not. Is the game fun? yes it is!

I was and have been an old COD guy from back when they were decent games. CODWAW was great and still is. The mod community made it better than treyarch ever did. The brothers realism mod was fantastic. Then MW2 came out and destroyed the game completely. What many of these FPS companies are doing is catering to an ever increasing console crowd because that's where the money is these days. The young kids all get the newest games as they come out and move onto the next one and the next one after that.

What has happened over the years is the dedicated PC gaming community has been virtually ignored. For this reason many who never played RO1 or ROOST are loving a game that is offering them something they weren't getting. A more realistic shooter. I am in the 7th Cavalry Tactical Gaming clan and we run a realism server where for the most part I frequently see public players using tactics and communicating. Does it always work no? No of course not there are still a lot of lone wolf COD players getting into the game and they will need to adjust to a new style of actual tactical game play.

The bugs will be fixed, the game will be tweaked, and I see it as having the potential to become a great game as long as we stick with it and show constructively that we want it to be one.

What I would suggest is removing the restrictions put on clans to run their servers certain ways to be ranked. Let us set up our servers the way we want to play them without restrictions. Those who hate it will leave eventually, while those who adapt to it will slowly come around to more tactical styles of play and. Every gaming company will try something a little new from time to time, and sometimes it works out while others it flops. What we have is a good game that will only get better as the devs and mod community get involved and make it what we want it to be.

SCandChives · Nov 2, 2011

Nikita said:
Respect is a two way street, but that said I don't believe that the developers made any of their choices out of a desire to spite the Ostfront/mod crowd. The way I see it, they were sandwiched between statements already made during marketing, a desire to expand the player base, and a genuine wish to maintain the core gameplay and please the fans. That's why we see such sharp contrasts--six Mkbs on the German team, but breathtakingly accurate tank interiors to fight in. An unlock and experience system with seriously odd attachments, but new features like ammo checking, adjustable sights, and a suppression system.

For instance, by making the questionable choice to unlock the Mkb and AVT for all DDE buyers, they were forced to ensure that those players would be able to use their shiny new weapons more frequently... By committing early on to an unlock system for weapons, they were stuck brainstorming for increasingly improbable attachments, cosmetic changes, etc...

I'm not saying we can't express the displeasure we feel about certain aspects of the game. And given the conflicting promises pre-release, we certainly have the right to be bitter. However, most of what we dislike, with the obvious exception of bugs, was implemented with good intentions and hard work.

So, whether or not certain design decisions were right or wrong, I at least feel that the devs already know which new features are unpopular. They may have hoped unrealistically that things like rare weapons would capture the heards of the Ostfront crowd, but that hope in itself is not a distasteful thing.

A true betrayal would have been something akin to the implementation of five-second respawn, regenerating health, and killstreaks. If that had been the case, I assure you that I'd be pouring on the vitriol with everyone else. However, based on the current state of affairs I see only faulty judgement, made with the best of intentions, backed up by grueling effort to make those choices work.

So criticize away. Make your feelings known. I just feel that statements like "I'll never buy another Tripwire game" and "they've jumped on the EA/Activision/Treyarch bandwagon" are completely unfair, unnecessary, and counterproductive.

You know what? That actually makes a lot of sense

. The game certainly has a bit of an identity crisis, but that certainly doesn't make it bad.

Cpt-Praxius said:
That's the impression I had as well.... I was given the impression before the game's release that it was going to go back to what made the Mod so great and popular, since most of the things that made RO1 so popular were features, maps and physics that came from the mod..... but they changed some key elements in RO1 that didn't carry over from the mod, such as a worse weapon sway, worse recoil, movement was more chuggy, tanks were far weaker and easily killed in one shot in the frontal armour, Panzers were death traps, Panthers were no where near as effective as they were in the Mod, T34's were also weaker, and the only tank that remained the same as in the mod was the IS2.

All of the original maps that were very popular in RO1 were ports of RO:CA maps.

There was a lot more content in RO1 than in RO:CA, but imo, that's all it had going for it, and many of the original elements that brought me into RO just weren't there in RO1 and I found myself hardly playing it.

I have already spent 25 more hours playing RO2 Beta/Retail since Beta release, than I have played RO1 since the day I bought RO1..... which is saying something since RO2 has only just been released not too long ago, while RO1 has been out for a few years now.

I think I even heard a Dev mention that they decided to go back to what made the mod great...... it wasn't drunken weapon sway, it wasn't foolish recoil, it wasn't paper thin tanks and it wasn't huge, expansive maps with small pockets of fighting here and there...... what made RO:CA so great was the well-designed maps, the detail of the maps, the fast pace of the battle, the more easier-to-use weapons, the tanks that could take more than one hit (not including getting hit from behind)... the fact that battles were designed to focus everybody on one or two cap zones at a time, not all of them across the entire map at once like some BF Conquest Monstrosity.

If RO1 never existed and RO2 just came out instead, I would have been happy and I bet most in here who object to RO2 would have actually love RO2, but they're so stuck on what they have experienced in RO1, that they think what was in RO1 is biblical to how RO should be.

Well, that's not my experience in RO2, but basing RO2 on what you experienced in Barracks and Apartments isn't the best way to get a real impression since Apartments is for the most part, a redo of Danzig (which was always run & gun SMG Combat since the mod days)..... and Barracks isn't much different from Apartments... it's just at night.

IMO, they did, but as proof between your view and my view from being from the mod days, even old mod vets have differing views on what RO is or should be, and we both have differing reasons on why we got into the game in the first place.

I have no idea how to count how many hours I played the Mod, but I know it was a hell of a lot more than what I spent playing RO1, and I already played RO2 more in the last two months than I played RO1 in total..... RO2 has brought me back into RO and while there are still a few things that need to be tweaked and/or added, overall I am impressed with RO2 and it is leaps and bounds above RO1 in every aspect except for content (which will come soon enough)

And I hated the mods for RO1 more than RO1 itself.

I should correct that.... Mare N. seemed to have some great potential and looked interesting, but there weren't any players online for me to play against...... Darkest Hour, while it did seem appealing, turned out to be crap for me and I had no real interest in playing it beyond the 12 hours I already played. Couldn't stand the weapon sights, couldn't stand the excessive muzzle flash, and to me, was a lesser quality version of RO1 itself.

Red Orchestra: Combined Arms, while it was a Mod of UT2k3/4, actually felt like its own game..... Darkest Hour just felt like a community Mod of a game and didn't stand apart as its own.

My opinion of course, I know plenty of people enjoyed both RO1 and DH..... I didn't and I'm merely voicing my opinion how RO2 compared to my experiences with RO1 and RO:CA.

Seriously, it's getting creepy how many times I find myself agreeing with you

Sensemann · Nov 2, 2011

Cpt-Praxius said:
Well, that's not my experience in RO2, but basing RO2 on what you experienced in Barracks and Apartments isn't the best way to get a real impression since Apartments is for the most part, a redo of Danzig (which was always run & gun SMG Combat since the mod days)..... and Barracks isn't much different from Apartments... it's just at night. .

Unlucky enough, it was my experience last night. And the impression is not the best, true. But since those maps are in the game and gave me the impression that last night, I shouldn't play because of this Mkb-disaster, then I am sorry, but since it happened in the game RO2, well, it lead to my decision to leave the game in peace.

Cpt-Praxius said:
what made RO:CA so great was the well-designed maps, the detail of the maps, the fast pace of the battle, the more easier-to-use weapons, the tanks that could take more than one hit (not including getting hit from behind)...

The mod's tanks were stronger than the one in retail RO 1. Granted. But if you are saying that RO 2's tanks are superior towards the mod's tanks, then I need to ask you: "in which sense?".
I love tanking like crazy, thanks to (was that RO 3.3 when tanks got introduced? forgot) 2 american dudes, teaching me how to team tank (Eichmann and Wittmann from the mod days). In RO 2, the only thing I can say about the tanks is: they look beautiful. Giving them an aimbot machinegunner is a bad design choice, to keep it polite. The maps are certainly not good enough for tank fights (too small) or combined warfare (aimbot mg). And Gumrag, I played twice for a short time, it disappeared for god knows which reason.

If you remember maps like Koitos, Jucha or the Berlin map from the mod, you will certainly, even today, remember the exact routes you went 90% of the time. They are in your head, I am sure. The firefights on these maps were intense and each capzone somehow resulted into blood your team needs to pay to advance a single meter. THAT, to me, was the outstanding impression of the mod. RO 1 dumped down a bit when compared to the mod, but it was in my eyes acceptable. The increase in players per server and map sizes was one of the major reasons I loved it. The stock maps were okay with 2-3 bright ones inbetween (just like RO 2), but the custom made maps kept it alive.

Since I only rejoined RO-retail about 1 year after release (was studying in the US), I found RO again and it gave me an almost similar feeling as the mod did. Btw. I found it funny in the mod that you had to pick up single clips when "borrowing" the weapon of a killed soldier rather then teleporting his gear into your pocket.

When playing RO 2, it feels like another game, almost without similarities to its predecessors. If RO 2 would have been released under another name from another company, then I would have said "another FPS". However, the RO-brand is on it, but the RO-brand is (in my eyes) not in it (yet).

Fedorov · Nov 2, 2011

I wouldn't mind if the game was a bit broken here and there, or had some design flaws, thats not the main issue, the real problem is that we've been lied to, and we've been treated like idiots.

For so many years, we've been led to believe that pretty much every single feature of the game was optional and could be tweaked to your desires, and yet, not a single thing can be changed in the end, you cant even disable your own HUD elements.

Every time a new unrealistic feature was presented, the *****ing of the fans were silenced with a: "Its optional" or "You can turn it off", being also said in the most annoying smartass way possible to ridicule the complains. "Check your facts".

If this is the way TWI thank their fans for their loyalty and support... then they deserve to go bankrupt, hard.

I believed them, honestly and wholeheartedly, and even helped them repeating the same BS they said like a broken record, and now I feel terrible about it.

If anyone I helped TWI silence reads this, you have my deepest and most sincere apologies, and it wouldn't have happened If had known better.

It's still not too late devs....

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